I the past chemical wet-film was used to take photos. Many "hard" patents protected the methods and systems (Kodak comes from this past and therefore the aggression on their part). With digital photography the "hard" has in many ways been replaced by "soft". Methods are now not "hard" any more but "soft". Processing a digital photo now uses software and "soft" methods, where in the past it required patentable hardware and methods. The grey zone.
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Table(t) Mountain
- Thread starter BeVonk!
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Elimentals
Honorary Master
Not a gray zone at all, yes you get to the same result, but they use totally different methods. Patents is not about protecting the result its about protecting the method.
Back to the gold example:
If you use chemicals and an oven and I use a nuclear reactor we both make gold but I did not copy your idea, so we would end up getting separate protection anyway.
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Canon has a unique way in which it processes the inputs received from the CCD/CMOS sensor called DIGIC. This produces photos that Canon believes is of a better quality under various conditions than software used by Nikon, for example. It's a software method on the camera. Surely this software method should be allowed to be patented? How will copyright protect this software method in a way that software patents shouldn't?
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Elimentals
Honorary Master
Because you protecting the method not the result. They use different methods so they did not copy each others work.
Again to my gold example, its not what you can do ie: make gold, its about the money invested into getting to that result if someone else finds a different and cheaper way of doing it its not up to the government to say hey you cant do it because Mr X did it 1st.
Once you understand why patents are there you will understand why its wrong for software patents to exist. Remember it was created to make sure people share their ways of doing things. You could go around and make gold without telling anyone how you did it, ie: Don't take out a patent at all. Its a way for you to tell people how to do it and get money from it.
As I said, Apple's got plenty juice in reserve to up their sales even more: http://www.bgr.com/2011/08/10/mac-and-iphone-market-share-could-soon-triple-analyst-says/
On the same site I see HP's tablet offering is not doing well despite price drops. This again shows that a company can have a technically equal or superior offer but still not convince the buying public. More than superior specs/performance/features are required to dethrone Apple. This thread started with the question: What should Google and it's OEM's do to beat the iPad? I'm not sure the question has been sufficiently answered. Lower price - as in the HP offering - does not necessarily draw buyers. What strategy is needed? How can Android offerings be differentiated from iPad so that buyers will take note and go for it instead of the iPad? Is there a killer feature that Google and the OEM's miss?
On the same site I see HP's tablet offering is not doing well despite price drops. This again shows that a company can have a technically equal or superior offer but still not convince the buying public. More than superior specs/performance/features are required to dethrone Apple. This thread started with the question: What should Google and it's OEM's do to beat the iPad? I'm not sure the question has been sufficiently answered. Lower price - as in the HP offering - does not necessarily draw buyers. What strategy is needed? How can Android offerings be differentiated from iPad so that buyers will take note and go for it instead of the iPad? Is there a killer feature that Google and the OEM's miss?
If I was Google, I would get a BIS solution in place for Android. I would buy RIM and use its BIS infrastructure. That to me will draw attention. That is where the big ongoing cost penalty lies in owning a tablet. Android (the freedom) + free navigation + G+ + GTalk + GMail + large app store + latest spec hardware + beautiful design + quality materials/finish + reliability + affordability + BIS = winner.
OldGoat
Senior Member
I'd buy shares
Elimentals
Honorary Master
It is a great dream (Google + RIM) but I dont think it will ever happen.
1st they will have to get past the 2 governments, Canada wont sell it easily to be riped apart and the DOJ wont allow Google to kill off BB.
2nd I dont think the other manufacturers in the OHA will look to kindly if Google does the Microsoft+Nokia dance with RIM. Android is not Google only, they just the front company. Android = OHA
The only way this could ever happen is if RIM out of their own decide to drop QNX and go Android with their BIS + BBM.
I will admit if they do bring out a RIM Blackberry with BIS + BBM support on Android as the OS, I will be the 1st person in the que to pick one up.
1st they will have to get past the 2 governments, Canada wont sell it easily to be riped apart and the DOJ wont allow Google to kill off BB.
2nd I dont think the other manufacturers in the OHA will look to kindly if Google does the Microsoft+Nokia dance with RIM. Android is not Google only, they just the front company. Android = OHA
The only way this could ever happen is if RIM out of their own decide to drop QNX and go Android with their BIS + BBM.
I will admit if they do bring out a RIM Blackberry with BIS + BBM support on Android as the OS, I will be the 1st person in the que to pick one up.
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Google not so innocent: http://www.bgr.com/2011/08/11/ftc-a...+TheBoyGeniusReport+(BGR+|+Boy+Genius+Report)
Motorola going after fellow Android OEM's ... and differentiation issue pops up again ... http://www.engadget.com/2011/08/11/sanjay-jha-hints-at-motorolas-plans-to-collect-patent-royalties/
CEO: "I would bring up IP as a very important for differentiation (among Android vendors). We have a very large IP portfolio, and I think in the long term, as things settle down, you will see a meaningful difference in positions of many different Android players. Both, in terms of avoidance of royalties, as well as potentially being able to collect royalties. And that will make a big difference to people who have very strong IP positions."
CEO: "I would bring up IP as a very important for differentiation (among Android vendors). We have a very large IP portfolio, and I think in the long term, as things settle down, you will see a meaningful difference in positions of many different Android players. Both, in terms of avoidance of royalties, as well as potentially being able to collect royalties. And that will make a big difference to people who have very strong IP positions."
Monica Chen, Taipei; Joseph Tsai, DIGITIMES [Tuesday 16 August 2011]: Tablet players expected to cut price to digest inventory overstock
Non-Apple tablet PC players, facing the fact their devices are having weaker sales than their order volumes, while demand from the retail channel has been quickly shrinking, are expected to start cutting their tablet prices by the end of September to digest inventory and minimize losses, and the decisions are expected to trigger a new price war within the tablet industry, according to sources from notebook players.
The sources pointed out that most non-Apple tablet players had weaker-than-expected performances and Asustek, which had a rather better performance, had shipments of 700,000 tablets from May to July with actual sales only reaching 500,000 units.
RIM and High Tech Computer (HTC) are already placing their hopes in 2012 with Samsung and Motorola both seeing their tablet demand weaker than expected, while some other players such as Acer are gradually reducing their orders.
Motorola, Hewlett-Packard (HP), Asustek and Acer have all recently reduced their tablet prices with the lowest price currently at US$370; however, with their inventory will become harder to digest, the sources believe there will be at least two waves of price cuts from the end of September to the year-end holiday, reducing the tablet average price level to US$350 and may even drop further to US$300 in the future
Non-Apple tablet PC players, facing the fact their devices are having weaker sales than their order volumes, while demand from the retail channel has been quickly shrinking, are expected to start cutting their tablet prices by the end of September to digest inventory and minimize losses, and the decisions are expected to trigger a new price war within the tablet industry, according to sources from notebook players.
The sources pointed out that most non-Apple tablet players had weaker-than-expected performances and Asustek, which had a rather better performance, had shipments of 700,000 tablets from May to July with actual sales only reaching 500,000 units.
RIM and High Tech Computer (HTC) are already placing their hopes in 2012 with Samsung and Motorola both seeing their tablet demand weaker than expected, while some other players such as Acer are gradually reducing their orders.
Motorola, Hewlett-Packard (HP), Asustek and Acer have all recently reduced their tablet prices with the lowest price currently at US$370; however, with their inventory will become harder to digest, the sources believe there will be at least two waves of price cuts from the end of September to the year-end holiday, reducing the tablet average price level to US$350 and may even drop further to US$300 in the future
Elimentals
Honorary Master
That is what I am talking about, drop the dam prices
Manufacturers must get the message that a tablet should cost no more than R3000 to get traction in our market. Most people - by far the majority - cannot pay for a tablet what a PC will cost them (and the kids still need those PC's for homework, etc).
From: http://allthingsd.com/20110816/ouchpad-best-buy-sitting-on-a-pile-of-unsold-hp-tablets/
There have been plenty of hints that Hewlett-Packard’s TouchPad isn’t selling well. First there was a $50 discount. Then there were spot discounts of $100 at outlets like Costco. Then the $100 discount became permanent. Adding insult to apparent injury, a deal on Woot for $120 off an entry-level 16-GB TouchPad netted all of 612 takers.
With HP set to report quarterly earnings tomorrow, sources familiar with the matter tell AllThingsD that TouchPad sales are failing yet another critical test: Sales at big box consumer electronics retailer Best Buy.
According to one source who’s seen internal HP reports, Best Buy has taken delivery of 270,000 TouchPads and has so far managed to sell only 25,000, or less than 10 percent of the units in its inventory.
A second person who has seen Best Buy’s TouchPad sales figures confirmed the results as “consistent with what I’ve seen,” and went so far as to say that 25,000 sold might be “charitable.” This source suggested that the 25,000-unit sales number may not account for units that consumers return to stores for a refund.
Best Buy, sources tell us, is so unhappy that it has told HP it’s unwilling to pay for all the TouchPads it has taking up expensive space in its stores and warehouses and wants HP to take them back. HP, for its part, is pleading with Best Buy to be patient. We’re also told a senior HP executive, possibly executive VP Todd Bradley, is slated to travel to Minneapolis soon to discuss the matter with Best Buy executives.
These numbers are emerging just one day before HP is set to report quarterly earnings. While it’s possible that HP will chose not to disclose any unit sales results for the TouchPad, because as yet they’re unlikely to be large enough to be material, if it does report anything on the subject it will probably report a figure known in industry circles known as “channel sales,” which are the number of units sold to stores like Best Buy and Costco. Channel sales don’t reflect sales to end customers, known as “sell through.”
HP declined to comment, as did Best Buy.
There’s more. TouchPad sales aren’t only failing to catch on at Best Buy, but at other retailers including Wal-Mart, Microcenter and Fry’s, says analyst Rich Doherty, head of the Envisioneering Group. Doherty says that spot interviews at stores on both coasts show that HP’s “wildcat pricing moves” on the TouchPad have prompted consumers to wait and see what happens in the next few months.
“After the initial surge of interest after the July release, all those price promotions have caused consumers interested in buying a TouchPad to pause because they think the price is going to fall further,” Doherty told me.
For the record, the TouchPad costs $399.99 for the 16-gigabyte model and $499.99 for the 32-gigabyte version. Both started at prices exactly $100 higher when first announced in June.
So what’s HP’s next move? Doherty says that with the back-to-school PC buying season under way, HP will likely use its leverage as one of Best Buy’s top suppliers — the other is Samsung — to offer bundle deals. Buy an HP computer, get the TouchPad for a special price.
There have been plenty of hints that Hewlett-Packard’s TouchPad isn’t selling well. First there was a $50 discount. Then there were spot discounts of $100 at outlets like Costco. Then the $100 discount became permanent. Adding insult to apparent injury, a deal on Woot for $120 off an entry-level 16-GB TouchPad netted all of 612 takers.
With HP set to report quarterly earnings tomorrow, sources familiar with the matter tell AllThingsD that TouchPad sales are failing yet another critical test: Sales at big box consumer electronics retailer Best Buy.
According to one source who’s seen internal HP reports, Best Buy has taken delivery of 270,000 TouchPads and has so far managed to sell only 25,000, or less than 10 percent of the units in its inventory.
A second person who has seen Best Buy’s TouchPad sales figures confirmed the results as “consistent with what I’ve seen,” and went so far as to say that 25,000 sold might be “charitable.” This source suggested that the 25,000-unit sales number may not account for units that consumers return to stores for a refund.
Best Buy, sources tell us, is so unhappy that it has told HP it’s unwilling to pay for all the TouchPads it has taking up expensive space in its stores and warehouses and wants HP to take them back. HP, for its part, is pleading with Best Buy to be patient. We’re also told a senior HP executive, possibly executive VP Todd Bradley, is slated to travel to Minneapolis soon to discuss the matter with Best Buy executives.
These numbers are emerging just one day before HP is set to report quarterly earnings. While it’s possible that HP will chose not to disclose any unit sales results for the TouchPad, because as yet they’re unlikely to be large enough to be material, if it does report anything on the subject it will probably report a figure known in industry circles known as “channel sales,” which are the number of units sold to stores like Best Buy and Costco. Channel sales don’t reflect sales to end customers, known as “sell through.”
HP declined to comment, as did Best Buy.
There’s more. TouchPad sales aren’t only failing to catch on at Best Buy, but at other retailers including Wal-Mart, Microcenter and Fry’s, says analyst Rich Doherty, head of the Envisioneering Group. Doherty says that spot interviews at stores on both coasts show that HP’s “wildcat pricing moves” on the TouchPad have prompted consumers to wait and see what happens in the next few months.
“After the initial surge of interest after the July release, all those price promotions have caused consumers interested in buying a TouchPad to pause because they think the price is going to fall further,” Doherty told me.
For the record, the TouchPad costs $399.99 for the 16-gigabyte model and $499.99 for the 32-gigabyte version. Both started at prices exactly $100 higher when first announced in June.
So what’s HP’s next move? Doherty says that with the back-to-school PC buying season under way, HP will likely use its leverage as one of Best Buy’s top suppliers — the other is Samsung — to offer bundle deals. Buy an HP computer, get the TouchPad for a special price.
... as far as phones and tablets are concerned.
From TechCrunch:
Back in the Summer of 2008, when there was still a glimmer of innocence and belief in the fundamental goodness of people in this young blogger’s mind, I decided that I wanted a touchscreen tablet. Something like the screen side of a Macbook Air, plus a touch screen. It would mostly be for “couch” computing, I said. although I also meant “bathroom” computing. Here’s that post, titled We Want A Dead Simple Web Tablet For $200. Help Us Build It.
At the time there was no iPad, or hope of one. Apple had ditched the idea, we’d heard, after unsatisfactory testing of a device with employees. So our choices where hugely expensive and near-useless tablets like the Dell Latitude XT. Meh.
So we jumped in headfirst into building what we eventually called the CrunchPad. That project turned into a trainwreck and the lawsuit is just finally getting ready to go to trial.
But one thing I was very right on is the huge demand for a less expensive tablet computer, even in today’s iPad world. HP’s sale of the TouchPad for $100 just confirms this – people will buy millions and millions of these things even if it doesn’t have an Apple logo on it.
HP certainly can’t spend $318 to build a TouchPad and then sell it for $100. But HP (or someone) could build a perfectly awesome capacitive touch screen tablet running on decent hardware for less than $200. We worked with enough factories in Taiwan to understand that. Our cost estimate for a great touch screen was in the $60 range, for both the module and the LCD. HP’s super awesome display is costing them more than twice that. They’re also spending $50 on memory, something we were mostly leaving out (storage? Cloud.).
If HP were to knock the screen quality down just a bit and figure out a cheaper storage solution, the BOM (bill of materials) on their device could be significantly lower than $200. Normally they’d retail that at $400 or more. But if instead they sold it for cost, and sold millions of them, a very robust developer network would pop up around WebOS. See Apple and Google for great ideas on monetizing apps on devices by grabbing up to 30% of revenues and also trying to control app advertising.
HP tried to build an iPad killer and they failed just like everyone knew they would. No one challenges Apple head on in a computer fight and wins. But if they had sold a much cheaper tablet they would have (as we see now) nearly unlimited demand for those tablets.
I say to HP – KEEP MAKING TOUCHPADS, as fast as you can. See what the demand curve looks like at $200, and watch the app developers suddenly get crazy excited about WebOS again. You may have a huge hit on your hands, and a bunch of lemonade from all those lemons.
Or perhaps some enterprising young factory or two in China will figure out an inexpensive device and license WebOS from HP. Either or is fine with me. But as long as Google keeps trying to match Apple on features and price, there’s a huge gaping hole filled with unmet demand for a tablet computer that you can use to look up stuff on Wikipedia while you’re watching tv, and maybe check emails during commercials. America is a couch culture. Embrace it, HP. Embrace it.
Back in the Summer of 2008, when there was still a glimmer of innocence and belief in the fundamental goodness of people in this young blogger’s mind, I decided that I wanted a touchscreen tablet. Something like the screen side of a Macbook Air, plus a touch screen. It would mostly be for “couch” computing, I said. although I also meant “bathroom” computing. Here’s that post, titled We Want A Dead Simple Web Tablet For $200. Help Us Build It.
At the time there was no iPad, or hope of one. Apple had ditched the idea, we’d heard, after unsatisfactory testing of a device with employees. So our choices where hugely expensive and near-useless tablets like the Dell Latitude XT. Meh.
So we jumped in headfirst into building what we eventually called the CrunchPad. That project turned into a trainwreck and the lawsuit is just finally getting ready to go to trial.
But one thing I was very right on is the huge demand for a less expensive tablet computer, even in today’s iPad world. HP’s sale of the TouchPad for $100 just confirms this – people will buy millions and millions of these things even if it doesn’t have an Apple logo on it.
HP certainly can’t spend $318 to build a TouchPad and then sell it for $100. But HP (or someone) could build a perfectly awesome capacitive touch screen tablet running on decent hardware for less than $200. We worked with enough factories in Taiwan to understand that. Our cost estimate for a great touch screen was in the $60 range, for both the module and the LCD. HP’s super awesome display is costing them more than twice that. They’re also spending $50 on memory, something we were mostly leaving out (storage? Cloud.).
If HP were to knock the screen quality down just a bit and figure out a cheaper storage solution, the BOM (bill of materials) on their device could be significantly lower than $200. Normally they’d retail that at $400 or more. But if instead they sold it for cost, and sold millions of them, a very robust developer network would pop up around WebOS. See Apple and Google for great ideas on monetizing apps on devices by grabbing up to 30% of revenues and also trying to control app advertising.
HP tried to build an iPad killer and they failed just like everyone knew they would. No one challenges Apple head on in a computer fight and wins. But if they had sold a much cheaper tablet they would have (as we see now) nearly unlimited demand for those tablets.
I say to HP – KEEP MAKING TOUCHPADS, as fast as you can. See what the demand curve looks like at $200, and watch the app developers suddenly get crazy excited about WebOS again. You may have a huge hit on your hands, and a bunch of lemonade from all those lemons.
Or perhaps some enterprising young factory or two in China will figure out an inexpensive device and license WebOS from HP. Either or is fine with me. But as long as Google keeps trying to match Apple on features and price, there’s a huge gaping hole filled with unmet demand for a tablet computer that you can use to look up stuff on Wikipedia while you’re watching tv, and maybe check emails during commercials. America is a couch culture. Embrace it, HP. Embrace it.
I got myself the Samsung Galaxy Tab P7500 10.1 blah blah blah yesterday and I must be honest and say I am not impressed. I can now see why these Android slates are struggling to get traction against the iPads. It's got the specs but it feels very half-baked. The apps suck big time. If you're into s e x and hot chicks then there is plenty to select from. The layouts suck. There are problems with missing text. In one app that I use every day on my SGS2 and iPad the text is not visible (white on white it seems). In some case the buttons are way to big and square with zero 3D effects etc. Feels at times like Windows 3.1. I really hope I can get ICS on this slate and that the apps get much better soon or this thing is not going to see much use from my side.
Android on my SGS2 is brilliant. Unfortunately Honeycomb is rubbish imo.
Android on my SGS2 is brilliant. Unfortunately Honeycomb is rubbish imo.