The Huawei B593 LTE discussion thread

[jeaninek]

Where (picture please) is the antenna installed (indoors or oudoors) and are you pointing to a TM tower?

I don't think that it has anything to do with the installation. We tried the antenna both inside for a quick test, and on the roof - it is not installed in a fixed position yet...

The issue is that the system check shows that the router is still using the INTERNAL antenna, even thought the external is connected...

This was reflected in the fact that even thought we rotated the external antenna along all compass points while on the roof, the signal didn't change by much more than 2 or 3 points, and the router was also consistently showing the same cell ID.
And I know that there are multiple towers "within" range, since I've picked up at least 3 diff cell ID's when we moved the router around inside the house to try for better signal.

We are waiting for someone from TM to come out and help us pinpoint the closed tower, since I'm not sure where exactly it is.

 

[Azimuth]

The B593u-91 was the first release of the B593 series. The hardware might even have changed in the interim. The antenna option only became universally available with the now-common B593s-601. (Even the Vodacom B2000/B593u-22 had to be flashed with Finnish firmware which caused a few other issues)

Looking at your signal stats, you really need the big daddy of externals - the Poynting LPDA-0092. I can't say why your Otto antenna isn't working - but I can tell you that most people didn't trust how the B593u-91 handled external antennas - and hence the third party firmware hunt when Huawei first launched these. (Edit: I see jcheek posted more on your Otto antenna in the antenna installation thread)

Best bet is to test another antenna - perhaps a Poynting variant. I have quite a few spare to lend you (bar the LPDA-0092).

We are waiting for someone from TM to come out and help us pinpoint the closed tower, since I'm not sure where exactly it is.

Don't rely on that support line too much. I've encountered the same Telkom 'consultant' from Roodepoort to Sandton. They tend to lean on an Android phone and something like OpenSignal - not accurate at all.

PM myself or jcheek and we might be able to help with a tower location. (No guarantees - our info is a bit dated)

As jcheek already suggested, let's continue to discussion in the appropriate threads.

 

[jeaninek]

Thanks Azimuth,

Jcheek already helped me with the tower locations. As I thought, the MTN one I was already pointing to seems to be the best bet...
I had to laugh - the 'Telkom consultant' with his android phone was already here
Apparently he escalated the query, and they are now sending somebody out to 'test the signal strength' - will have to wait and see.........

I might also add - when we had the router up on the roof (with only the internal) it went up to 3 bars, with RSRP: -98.
We are also usually getting between 20-30 MB/s - so I'm happy enough with the speed, we just need a more consistent connection

 

[Azimuth]

Aha! Up on the roof with that signal is a revelation. I'd personally still go for LPDA-0092's.

 

[Napalm]

You want that RSRP to be low... around -50 or -60.


Ways to get the Router signal better. <Closer to Windows and Add hight to it . Alternatively add external antenna's on the roof> - Must be cross polarised if you using LTE.

 

[jcheek]

You want that RSRP to be low... around -50 or -60 ...

Whoah, careful there.
As measured on the B593s-601, an RSRP as high as -50 or even -60dBm would be incredible (if you could get it), but very rare in practise. Perhaps you meant RSSI ?
A practical range for RSRP would be between -100 and -70dBm for good results. See this post to get an idea of real RSSI/RSRP spreads, but here's a snapshot:

Ways to get the Router signal better. <Closer to Windows and Add height to it . Alternatively add external antenna's on the roof> - Must be cross polarised if you using LTE.

As regards using outdoor external antennas:
If using a dual-element directional antenna with line-of-sight to a base station, then orthogonally-polarised elements are first prize, yes.
But a dual-antenna array using two omnidirectional antennas with the same polarisation can work almost as well, provided they have sufficient separation. This configuration would typically be used in a non-line-of-sight installation.

 

[jeaninek]

So... update on my saga with the Otto wireless antenna...

We informed them that its not working, and they took both the router and antenna to test....
They tested the antenna we bought, as well as all the other antennas they stock, and NONE of theirs worked with the router, but the paddle ones that came in the box does (sent them with as well)...

They have now concluded that "the issue lies with the router itself" - and they "believe the router is locked by Telkom"

However, I remember reading something about this, and tracked it down to page 7:

I'm assuming none of them are Poynting? Poynting build in a DC short to shunt from external to internal. This is a key difference between Poynting and cheapies.

If you have a B593u-91 then there isn't custom firmware to unlock the antenna menu. If you have a B593u-12, there is some European firmware floating around.

So, my quick question is this:
Did anybody else with a B593u-91 get a different/any brand of external antenna to work, eg the poynting ones?

I now have to try and prove that its their product that's not compatible, so they will hopefully take the thing back and I can go and spend the money on a proper system.

ps - putting it here, since i'm not sure this is really antenna "installation" related

 

[Azimuth]

Like I said before - I could loan you a Poynting unit. What is your location?

My B593u-91's worked just fine with (Poynting) antennas. Always switched to external and the RSSI/RSRP showed that.

 

[jeaninek]

Hi Azimuth,

Thanks, I'm in Albertskroon - but first have to get the router back from the Otto guys (might only be able to fetch monday ), and can only test on a weekend - but will definitely get back to you once I'm ready

Also glad to hear that yours worked fine with the external....

 

[sajunky]

We informed them that its not working, and they took both the router and antenna to test....
They tested the antenna we bought, as well as all the other antennas they stock, and NONE of theirs worked with the router, but the paddle ones that came in the box does (sent them with as well)...

They have now concluded that "the issue lies with the router itself" - and they "believe the router is locked by Telkom"

However, I remember reading something about this, and tracked it down to page 7:

Nope, it is not issue with the router. And what Azimuth wrote on page 7 is a complete rubbish. A "key difference" is between Poyinting and cheapie bunny ears (which actually work, but it shouldn't, as is 'cheapie').
You can help them if you forward my previous post about antenna polarization.

 

[jeaninek]

Nope, it is not issue with the router. And what Azimuth wrote on page 7 is a complete rubbish. A "key difference" is between Poyinting and cheapie bunny ears (which actually work, but it shouldn't, as is 'cheapie').
You can help them if you forward my previous post about antenna polarization.

My first issue now is to either get that antenna working (and since they tested it (PLUS the rest of their range) themselves and couldn't get it working, I'm assuming that is a no-go), or to get a refund so that I can buy a different brand.

And the point I was trying to make with the quote from Azimuth was regarding the DC-short, which I presume would 'force' the switching to external antenna, since my specific router does not have the option to do this manually.

We did query with OTTO whether their antenna's have this, in order to try and pinpoint the issue - they haven't responded yet...
Since they tested it at their location, I would assume that they could rule out 'bad signal strength' as being the issue...

I also doubt VERY much that the router is at fault, but unfortunately, until I can prove this, they will insist that its not the antenna...

 

[sajunky]

And the point I was trying to make with the quote from Azimuth was regarding the DC-short, which I presume would 'force' the switching to external antenna, since my specific router does not have the option to do this manually.

If remember correctly Azimuth created DC-short theory to explain the problem that router didn't accept paddle antennas. Your story actually proves that Azimuth was wrong, as paddle sticks work in your case.

 

[jcheek]

My first issue now is to either get that antenna working (and since they tested it (PLUS the rest of their range) themselves and couldn't get it working, I'm assuming that is a no-go), or to get a refund so that I can buy a different brand.

I think there's now a big question mark over the suitability of the Chang-Hong dual-element antenna(s), however it's still just possible that there's an issue with the modem itself.

One sure way to get to the bottom of the problem is to try the same modem with different antenna(s); and (ideally) to try the same antenna(s) on another modem - exactly what you plan to do, I think.

jeaninek, you have an offer of help from someone who has first-hand experience with the same modem, and experience in using it with more than one type of comparable external antenna.
Between yourselves and Azimuth, you have access to all the kit necessary to diagnose the problem. It doesn't get much better than that - go for it!

And the point I was trying to make with the quote from Azimuth was regarding the DC-short, which I presume would 'force' the switching to external antenna, since my specific router does not have the option to do this manually.

I believe the idea that an external antenna should have a "DC short" in order for the modem to properly detect it, was first flighted by Poynting themselves - probably on the basis of input received from Huawei SA :

<quote>
"Andre Fourie 1 year ago in reply to Clint Ryan Taray :
Hi Clint - we are not experts on the Router, but we are experts on the antennas . But I asked around and got the following advice.
1. The antenna must have a DC short, if it does not have that the radio does not switch to the external antenna. (Poynting antennas has a DC short - not sure what you are using."
<unquote>

(bear in mind that most of this discussion took place at a time when the B593u-91 was the most common B593 device. The "force external antenna" option on the newer B593s-601 has all but removed the need to wonder).

The main benefit of a DC short is on an outdoor external antenna, where it helps prevents static build-up and might also help (albeit very slightly) to reduce surge voltages induced on the antenna wires by nearby lightning strikes.
In your case, I think the B593 modem has simply compared the strength/quality of both sets of signals (built-in and external) and has decided - rightly or wrongly - to use the built-in antennas in preference.

As an aside, it's worth mentioning that not all Poynting antennas have zero effective impedance at DC (a "DC short"). Some of the older models did not.
I would assume that most current designs do.

I also doubt VERY much that the router is at fault, but unfortunately, until I can prove this, they will insist that its not the antenna...

Your approach is spot-on !

 

[jeaninek]

<quote>
"Andre Fourie 1 year ago in reply to Clint Ryan Taray :
Hi Clint - we are not experts on the Router, but we are experts on the antennas . But I asked around and got the following advice.
1. The antenna must have a DC short, if it does not have that the radio does not switch to the external antenna. (Poynting antennas has a DC short - not sure what you are using."
<unquote>

Thanks, will definitely test the alternative antenna/router...

Also, thought it might be worth checking if there is a later version of the firmware for this router...
I followed your link to the YouTube video, and noticed that the router is distributed by Arbelest...

Funny thing is, I actually know a few of the people working at Arbelest :erm:
Small world...................

 

[jcheek]

Also, thought it might be worth checking if there is a later version of the firmware for this router...
I followed your link to the YouTube video, and noticed that the router is distributed by Arbelest...

Funny thing is, I actually know a few of the people working at Arbelest :erm:
Small world...................

With Arbelest (as with the infamous Telkom rep), I'm afraid you might have the same experience as I did - which is to say, very limited success. They do indeed seem to be distributor rather than an importer/agent. But you may do better with an "insider" !

If you search back through this thread, you'll see that the "best" source for Huawei firmware so far has turned out to be Huawei SA themselves (that sounds like a no-brainer, but initially they kept a very low profile). Jaco at Huawei SA has been fairly cooperative, although the latest firmware they have for the B593u-91 is the V100...SP100 release that you already have.
There was talk of an V100...SP150 release, but no-one seems to have been able to get it. (Conrads, feel free to chip in here if you have new info ...)

All of this has zero bearing on the firmware for the B593s-601, which is currently at V200..B270..SP00 and for which I tried to compile a version summary here.

 

[sajunky]

I believe the idea that an external antenna should have a "DC short" in order for the modem to properly detect it, was first flighted by Poynting themselves - probably on the basis of input received from Huawei SA :

<quote>
"Andre Fourie 1 year ago in reply to Clint Ryan Taray :
Hi Clint - we are not experts on the Router, but we are experts on the antennas . But I asked around and got the following advice.
1. The antenna must have a DC short, if it does not have that the radio does not switch to the external antenna. (Poynting antennas has a DC short - not sure what you are using."</quote>

It is easy to test if bunny ears antennas supplied with B593 have DC-short. If there is no DC-short, then further quoting above statement doesn't make sense. It works for jeaninek, so obviously the statement must be wrong. I have two different paddle antennas, no-one have DC-short.

 

[jeaninek]

Okay, latest feedback.

We had another Telkom guy out here, and this time they sent the real deal . Seems you have to get the "android app guy" to do the basic checks, and then they escalate it...

He came with his own B593u-91 and a poynting XPOL-0006. Did a proper check of all the towers, and which ones we could pick up - but didn’t really get MUCH improvement over the router alone - BUT, weren't able to go very high, since they aren't allowed to climb roofs due to safety regulations.

Big thing though is that I managed to test my router with his antenna - and it works 100%...
So, still not sure WHY, but the OTTO antenna definitely has an issue with my router.

It is easy to test if bunny ears antennas supplied with B593 have DC-short. If there is no DC-short, then further quoting above statement doesn't make sense. It works for jeaninek, so obviously the statement must be wrong. I have two different paddle antennas, no-one have DC-short.

I do not have the ability to test my paddle antennas myself (might ask my dad to bring his meters at some point thought), but I CAN tell you that OTTO confirmed that their antennas does NOT have a DC-short...

So, for now I need to return this antenna, and then I can look at getting a poynting system....

 

[Azimuth]

If you need help with your install, let me know?

 

[sajunky]

Conclusions:
1. Router is not faulty, as it works on supplied bunny-ears antennas and XPOL-0006 which finally confirms this fact.
2. DC-short is not an issue, as it works on bunny-ears which do not have DC-short (99% sure).
3. The way router automatically select antennas depends heavily whether is able to negotiate 2x2 MIMO operation with the tower (as I decribed in my previous post).
4. XPOL-0006 is cross-polarized antenna optimised for 2x2 MIMO operation, while antenna supplied by OTTO has two vertical polarized elements. OTTO's antenna is useless for this router as it will not use it.
I think this matter deserves a news article with official response from Otto Marketing.

 

[jcheek]

Okay, latest feedback.

Yay! Thanks in advance for keeping everyone in the thread in the loop.
This really helps other folks contemplating the same issues.

We had another Telkom guy out here, and this time they sent the real deal . Seems you have to get the "android app guy" to do the basic checks, and then they escalate it...
He came with his own B593u-91 and a poynting XPOL-0006. Did a proper check of all the towers, and which ones we could pick up - but didn’t really get MUCH improvement over the router alone - BUT, weren't able to go very high, since they aren't allowed to climb roofs due to safety regulations.

Hmmph. A much better approach, but still a bit limited unless he was able to get some decent height.
But hey, I think you got enough info to draw a conclusion, yes ?

Big thing though is that I managed to test my router with his antenna - and it works 100%...

Pretty much as we all suspected, I think.

So, still not sure WHY, but the OTTO antenna definitely has an issue with my router.

Hehe, I think it's more a case that your B593 has an issue with the Otto / Chang-Hong antenna !

I do not have the ability to test my paddle antennas myself (might ask my dad to bring his meters at some point thought), but I CAN tell you that OTTO confirmed that their antennas does NOT have a DC-short...

Getting a bit technical here, but anyway ...

Depending on the type of multi-meter used, this may or may not work, ie it's not quite so easy.
When testing with a conventional multi-meter's resistance (Ohms) range, on some antennas the answer may be pretty clear, ie if you test between outer shell and centre pin on the connector, you may see a clear short-circuit (zero Ohms).
You may also see an open circuit (usually designated "O/L", ie infinite resistance, meaning no DC short). Many indoor whip antennas will probably be this way (open circuit).

Now, just to make it complicated : When measured in that way, the flat whip antennas included with the B593s-601 will show an intermediate result - an answer in the low kiloOhms. This is neither a short nor an open circuit.



However, when tested on the "diode test" range included on some multi-meters - which uses a higher test voltage - you will see about a 0.6V volt-drop when measured in either direction. This would be considered a DC short.
(On an even more technical note, this might indicate that the "DC short" on the B593s-601's flat whip antennas is provided by means of some anti-parallel (back-to-back) diodes connected between shell and centre pin).

Edit: Subsequently, when checking with two other multimeters, I discovered that the 0.6V was just coincidence. Without opening up the antenna, I'm now 95% sure that what's inside is just a plain 1.2kΩ resistor.


As mentioned in the Edit above, it just so happened that the meter I was using uses a 0.5mA test current on the Diode Test range : 0.5mA x 1.2kΩ = 0.60V).

Whether your B593 modem/router cares about it or not, a DC short on an outdoor external antenna is desirable for ESD and surge protection reasons.
So .. make sure you (or your dad!) tests both ways when you try this, or when you evaluate another outdoor external antenna!

So, for now I need to return this antenna, and then I can look at getting a Poynting system....

See you on the Antenna installation and alignment or Poynting antenna threads!