The Middle East Conflict Thread

[marine1]

Now all of a sudden you care for the innocent Muslims being killed?

???

Hypocrite!
Besides it was an oil war nothing else..

Yeah and the WTC was brought down by the US

 

[BBSA]

Not quite...




link

So Israel still has a say with regards to it being opened.

Not true, the operations of EUBAM were suspended on 13 June 2007 due to the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

 

[CyraxHB]

If all hamas's warmongering only makes up 10% of what they do then I'd expect gaza to have looked a bit better. And as gaza has always looked and operated like a shytehole Im not in a hurry to believe those statistics.

Point being I am unlikely to stereotype people from a white ethnic background. I have members of my family which are openly racist, and I have members of my family who ran afoul of BOSS. I've seen both sides of the spectrum and I'm not about to make sweeping statements about the behaviour of white people during the existence of Apartheid.

I know whites who make those same claims but also make those "sweeping statements".

So you claim the Israeli objection rate is higher than 13%?

I have no idea how many object to the war. But as the iraeli population and the US support it then this doesnt make a difference.

By that standard, a state for the Israelis is only viable if the Israeli leadership recognises Palestine. But they don't, which is why Israeli politicians talk of "Judea and Samaria" instead of the "West Bank". There can be no Palestinian state without the Palestinians having control over their own borders, their natural resource (including water), their coastline, and without people being freely able to travel within their state freely (i.e. being able to move from gaza and the west bank respectively). While mainstream media likes to lie and say that Hamas refused to recognise Israel after it came to power, what actually happened was that Hamas said that it would be willing to recognise a State of Israel that occupied the 1967 borders (along with all the other requirements that must be met in order for there to be a viable Palestinian state). Israel of course snubbed its nose at this and thus the lie was perpetuated that Hamas had no interest in reaching a settlement with Israel.

Why should israel withdraw to pre 1967 borders? They won that territory in a war started by their enemies. And before you start claiming israel started that war do some research first.

I don't have to. Just because Mexican troops are near the U.S. border does not give the U.S. the excuse to bomb those troops. Niether can Mexico do the same to the US.

Well if those mexican troops had a history of firing missiles into the US they would have been attacked as soon as they approached the border. Any army would do that.

So then I presume that you mean to say that if it wasn't a recession that the deficits would not be so large? In that case, can you explain why the deficit has been growing consistently for the last 25 years, despite several periods of economic growth? (And btw, as it happens, the largest INCREASE in the trade defecit occured during the last period of growth.)

I think the main reason the deficit is so big is because of the wars but the sub-prime crisis as well as the recession has made this worse. As I said before, many countries have a lot of debt but it doesnt last forever.

 

[JK8]

???
Yeah and the WTC was brought down by the US

Come to think about it, these "terrorist" organisations have yet to come up with another attack as clean and deadly as 9/11 actually in the past 20 years theres been no such attack as clinical... military planning...

But anyway Ill keep the foil for my hookah mix...
Back on topic...

 

[Xarog]

You are correct there is no point in debating with you. You said Israel was in control of the Rafah Border Crossing. Which is not the case. And what is up with the personal attacks?

BBSA, herewith is a list of posts which I have made which you have ignored and refused to admit that you are wrong over the last few days :

Frankie, you will have to spell it out, otherwise they won't get it.

Let me spell it out to you :

By claiming that it's ok to bomb Palestinian business centres in the West Bank simply because Hamas happens to be in charge of Gaza, you're effectively claiming that civilian business centres are reasonable military targets.

In other words, you have just voiced support for terrorism.

You were wrong. You did not admit your error.

Correct, Israel withdrew from Gaza and dismantle settlements at a create political cost to them. The deal was land for peace. Did they get any good will back from the Palestinians? No, only thousands of rockets.

Yes, there was a bit of a local backlash from the Israeli right-wing hardliners. However, the decision was one of calculated self-preservation. If the settlements didn't stop, Israel would risk having to annex the entire Gazan strip and give everyone living there Israeli citizenship, along with the right to vote for whomever they pleased. The Gazan strip has an extremely high birthrate and an extremely high number of children vs. adults. In terms of total popualation, it is a ticking timebomb, and it was this timebomb which so scared Sharon and other Zionists. Because those arabs, if they had citizenship, would within a relatively short number of years, threaten the Jewish hegemony within Israel.

And just to prove the point, here's a nice link to an Israeli mainstream newspaper which refers to the whole strategy behind the pullout. This isn't some tinfoil hat conspiracy theory; it was openly discussed by Israel's political elite.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/761007.html

Everyone in the Sharon government talked about the "demographic problem" to convince people of the justness of the pullout. Now the Palestinians have been forgotten and demographics have been forgotten - all because the data can't be used for political ends. But the apartheid regime in the territories remains intact; millions of Palestinians are living without rights, freedom of movement or a livelihood, under the yoke of ongoing Israeli occupation, and in the future they will turn the Jews into a minority between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River.

So in other words, it was hardly a decision at "create[sic] political cost to them".

You were wrong. You did not admit your error.

Impatience, it is a process (give and take) and the Pallies did not understand that.

Just out of curiosity, exactly what has the state of Israel offered to give up?

You claimed that the "Pallies" were solely to blame for the current state of affairs, yet you never substanciated the implication that Israel had played fairly or reasonably. You still have not provided a single shred of evidence pertaining to any offer Israel has made with regards to border agreements, The right of return, not to mention the whole host of requirements needed for any valid nation to exist.

You were wrong, you did not admit your error. You have been called repeatedly on this point, and yet you ignore it each and every time.

I have been debating in good faith, you have been debating in bad faith. I mirror your tactics once, you throw your toys out of the cot and claim that there is no point in debating with me, when all I have been doing is mimicing your behaviour. And then you react surprised when someone calls you on your behaviour and comments that you're making yourself look like a hypocrite.

 

[BBSA]

BBSA, herewith is a list of posts which I have made which you have ignored and refused to admit that you are wrong over the last few days :


You were wrong. You did not admit your error.


You were wrong. You did not admit your error.


You claimed that the "Pallies" were solely to blame for the current state of affairs, yet you never substanciated the implication that Israel had played fairly or reasonably. You still have not provided a single shred of evidence pertaining to any offer Israel has made with regards to border agreements, The right of return, not to mention the whole host of requirements needed for any valid nation to exist.

You were wrong, you did not admit your error. You have been called repeatedly on this point, and yet you ignore it each and every time.

I have been debating in good faith, you have been debating in bad faith. I mirror your tactics once, you throw your toys out of the cot and claim that there is no point in debating with me, when all I have been doing is mimicing your behaviour. And then you react surprised when someone calls you on your behaviour and comments that you're making yourself look like a hypocrite.

As I said: "No point in debating with you"

 

[BBSA]

It's a record !

5 pages and not a mention of Mickey Mouse !

And you just had to break the record

 

[marine1]

Come to think about it, these "terrorist" organisations have yet to come up with another attack as clean and deadly as 9/11 actually in the past 20 years theres been no such attack as clinical... military planning...

pure luck and funding by Iran and their cronies, now the world is more aware, another will come, in time I am sure.

***Mickey Mouse***

 

[d0b33]

Not true, the operations of EUBAM were suspended on 13 June 2007 due to the Hamas takeover of the Gaza Strip.

How convenient...

 

[BBSA]

How convenient...

What do you mean?

 

[d0b33]

Brilliant military leader !!
Should be celbrated and honoured.

Like Irgun and Lehi are celebrated and honored by the majority of Israelis?

What do you mean?

Tinfoil hat time.

 

[JK8]

Brilliant military leader !!
Should be celbrated and honoured.

“I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him.”

Ariel Sharon quote

God is celebrating and honoring him...

 

[marine1]

God is celebrating and honoring him...

Dam right he is, as opposed to Arafat who is in the depths of hell as we speak.

 

[BBSA]

Tinfoil hat time.

Not really, It means Egypt is in control of the Gaza/Egypt border.

Why is facts Tinfoil hat time?

 

[Xarog]

If all hamas's warmongering only makes up 10% of what they do then I'd expect gaza to have looked a bit better. And as gaza has always looked and operated like a shytehole Im not in a hurry to believe those statistics.

So in other words, you just don't want to believe what you find inconvenient to your point of view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_foreign_relations

For goodness sake, just do some research on the people that are involved with the CFR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Welsh_Dulles <- ran the CIA for 8 years, member of the CFR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain <- Member of the CFR, republican presidential candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney <- American Vice Pres, member of the CFR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush <- US Ex Pres, member of the CFR

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/entertainment/2007-06/08/content_890486.htm , Which reads :

Angeline Jolie is now among former US Presidents Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter, ABC's Diane Sawyer, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and journalist Tom Brokaw who comprise in the membership of the prestigious think tank.

So seriously, when an association which boasts : 3 different american presidents as part of its membership, 1 vice pres, 1 presidential nominee as part of its membership claims that Hamas diverts 90% of its energy on social welfare, don't you think it's just a little bat***** insane to think they're lying, given the likelyhood they have of trying to paint Hamas in a negative light!?

I have no idea how many object to the war. But as the iraeli population and the US support it then this doesnt make a difference.

So in other words, you have no proof that the South African conscientous objector rate was lower than the Israeli objection rate.

Why should israel withdraw to pre 1967 borders?

Because as a UN member they signed the UN charter which declares it illegal to annex territory gained through warfare.

They won that territory in a war started by their enemies.

Still illegal.

And before you start claiming israel started that war do some research first.

Why don't you do a little research and source a credible claim which shows that the Palestinians EVER had a standing army which EVER declared war on Israel? Here's a tip : The Palestinians have never had a standing army.

Well if those mexican troops had a history of firing missiles into the US they would have been attacked as soon as they approached the border. Any army would do that.

Well north and south korea both have standing armies which both are ON the border. They've fired on each other in the past, so why isn't north korea currently trying to bombard south korean positions?

I think the main reason the deficit is so big is because of the wars but the sub-prime crisis as well as the recession has made this worse. As I said before, many countries have a lot of debt but it doesnt last forever.

Quite right, countries with such deficits collapse.

 

[Xarog]

I have been debating in good faith, you have been debating in bad faith. I mirror your tactics once, you throw your toys out of the cot and claim that there is no point in debating with me, when all I have been doing is mimicing your behaviour. And then you react surprised when someone calls you on your behaviour and comments that you're making yourself look like a hypocrite.

As I said: "No point in debating with you"

Thankyou for admitting that you have been exhibiting puerile behaviour and that you think no one should bother debating with you. Please leave the thread at your earliest convenience and allow the rest of us to get on with it.

 

[JK8]

Agreed - except he's a live vegetable that always left one with a bad taste in the mouth.

Ye seems his own God doesnt want him!

 

[daveza]

If we banned everyone who was an anti-semite, anti-muslim or
anti-black/anc there would be hardly anyone left.

It's hardly fair to throw toys out over those who don't support the one side which for example refers to children and women as potential butchers.

It's no more a crime to be anti-semitic or anti-muslim than to be anti-whitney.

 

[CyraxHB]

So in other words, you just don't want to believe what you find inconvenient to your point of view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_foreign_relations

For goodness sake, just do some research on the people that are involved with the CFR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allen_Welsh_Dulles <- ran the CIA for 8 years, member of the CFR.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_McCain <- Member of the CFR, republican presidential candidate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Cheney <- American Vice Pres, member of the CFR

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_H._W._Bush <- US Ex Pres, member of the CFR

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/entertainment/2007-06/08/content_890486.htm , Which reads :



So seriously, when an association which boasts : 3 different american presidents as part of its membership, 1 vice pres, 1 presidential nominee as part of its membership claims that Hamas diverts 90% of its energy on social welfare, don't you think it's just a little bat***** insane to think they're lying, given the likelyhood they have of trying to paint Hamas in a negative light!?

And yet thousands of rockets are still fired by hamas. As I said before, if all those rockets only make up 10% of their activities I'd expect the other 90% to actually involve improving gaza. Which clearly hasnt happened.

So in other words, you have no proof that the South African conscientous objector rate was lower than the Israeli objection rate.

Which has nothing to do with anything.

Because as a UN member they signed the UN charter which declares it illegal to annex territory gained through warfare.

If they did that then hamas would be sprouting propaganda saying they defeated israel so it is obviously out of the question. And besides, the UN has called for hamas to stop firing rockets and they havent.

Still illegal.

Perhaps on paper, but in the real world things are more complicated as I said above.

Why don't you do a little research and source a credible claim which shows that the Palestinians EVER had a standing army which EVER declared war on Israel? Here's a tip : The Palestinians have never had a standing army.

Regardless, they were allied to israels enemies.

EDIT: They dont have a conventional army now but they are still fighting.

Well north and south korea both have standing armies which both are ON the border. They've fired on each other in the past, so why isn't north korea currently trying to bombard south korean positions?

Because they know their outdated army would crushed in a matter of days by south korea and her allies. Which is what the palestinians would be wise to remember.

Quite right, countries with such deficits collapse.

An example of one such country would be helpful.

 

[d0b33]

Dam right he is

You do know he was referring to Palestinian Christians too right? they out number Jews in Bethlehem and people like him want these Christians dead or out.

There are Palestinian Christians in Gaza too FYI.