The Middle East Conflict Thread

BBSA said:
You forget to mention the 697 rockets and 822 mortar bombs which were fired at Israeli towns prior to the blockade.
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1519 rockets/mortars, 21 killed in 7 years.

Thousands of rounds, tank shells, missiles, phosphorus bombs - 540 killed in a week.

Damage caused by both:-

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15196741.jpg - Ashkelon building hit by rocket


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15197536.jpg - Ministry buildings bombed in Gaza

This is hardly proportional whichever way you look at it.

Yes, I know some will disagree.
 
rwenzori said:
Seeing that old timgaul has quietened down for a bit, maybe a fuller explanation.
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As charming a fella as you are I don't have all day to argue with you. I have a job and family.

Let me just say as a counter to your prelude: when you join the United Nations you agree to accept everything it has done in the past as an organisation. If you do not agree then you should be boycotting the organisation; which I notice most Arab nations do not do. As such, they have to accept Resolution 181 as an entrenched part of THEIR United Nations.
 
daveza said:
1519 rockets/mortars, 21 killed in 7 years.

Thousands of rounds, tank shells, missiles, phosphorus bombs - 540 killed in a week.

Damage caused by both:-

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15196741.jpg - Ashkelon building hit by rocket


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15197536.jpg - Ministry buildings bombed in Gaza

This is hardly proportional whichever way you look at it.

Yes, I know some will disagree.
Click to expand...

Give us an I!
Give us an S!
Give us an R!

...

:D
 
rwenzori said:
If you read the dispute carefully, the "main drafter" did not want the 1967 line to be permanent because Israel had already taken other parts not agreed to in 1948.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_242

by "Lord Caradon, chief author of the resolution".

Clear breach, whichever way you want to wriggle.
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Same wiki:

Supporters of the "Israeli viewpoint" focus on the operative phrase calling for "secure and recognized boundaries" and note that the resolution calls for a withdrawal "from territories" rather than "from the territories." This finds support from the resolution's drafters, this means Israel need not withdraw from all territory. Further, the United Nations had never recognized the West Bank as [de jure] Jordanian territory nor the Gaza Strip as Egyptian territory and could not enforce their claims to sovereignty.
Click to expand...
 
daveza said:
1519 rockets/mortars, 21 killed in 7 years.

Thousands of rounds, tank shells, missiles, phosphorus bombs - 540 killed in a week.

Damage caused by both:-

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15196741.jpg - Ashkelon building hit by rocket


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15197536.jpg - Ministry buildings bombed in Gaza

This is hardly proportional whichever way you look at it.

Yes, I know some will disagree.
Click to expand...

the point is, they fired all those rockets that killed 21 people .... and then they (and you lot) get miffed when Israel says enough is enough and retaliates :rolleyes:
 
daveza said:
1519 rockets/mortars, 21 killed in 7 years.

Thousands of rounds, tank shells, missiles, phosphorus bombs - 540 killed in a week.

Damage caused by both:-

http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15196741.jpg - Ashkelon building hit by rocket


http://news.sky.com/sky-news/content/StaticFile/jpg/2009/Jan/Week1/15197536.jpg - Ministry buildings bombed in Gaza

This is hardly proportional whichever way you look at it.

Yes, I know some will disagree.
Click to expand...


It is not about proportionality. It is about a states responsibility to defend its citizens, whatever it takes.
 
Mephisto_Helix said:
the point is, they fired all those rockets that killed 21 people .... and then they (and you lot) get miffed when Israel says enough is enough and retaliates :rolleyes:
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Well if someone killed my other half I guess it would make sense to make sure I killed that person back - then killed his family, relatives, neighbours and everyone else living on the same street.

:confused:
 
BBSA said:
It is not about proportionality. It is about a states responsibility to defend its citizens, whatever it takes.
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This is true.. it is an age old principle. I actually wish the US and other welfare states would go back to this principle (the Federal government in the US was really only created for the purpose of defence... not much else).

Go and read Plato's Republic where he espouses this principle. The Romans understood this as well (despite being Imperialistic and allowing slavery - the duty of the state to protect the citizens was paramount).

Israel is simply doing what a state is supposed to do. Never mind the elections, never mind the ratio or the proportion. I think they have been extremely tolerant. I would have retaliated after the FIRST citizen killed... they have waited a long time to do this... but I am glad they are doing it.

I wish South Africa would wake up and realize this... our citizens are being killed and murdered every day... and the state fails to act to protect them... they are failing miserably. :(
 
Sigh.. This conflict is an eternal loop that will not end. The man kicks the dog, the dog bites him, he kicks harder, the dog bites harder. What a sad state of affairs indeed. And all the while both have external parties adding fuel to this fire. Spreading the hatred.. Eish! Was it Christmas just a few days ago? But alas both the man and the dog don’t know about Him.

What a pity because then they might know about forgiveness and bring an end to this sorry mess.
 
Road runner said:
Sigh.. This conflict is an eternal loop that will not end. The man kicks the dog, the dog bites him, he kicks harder, the dog bites harder. What a sad state of affairs indeed. And all the while both have external parties adding fuel to this fire. Spreading the hatred.. Eish! Was it Christmas just a few days ago? But alas both the man and the dog don’t know about Him.

What a pity because then they might know about forgiveness and bring an end to this sorry mess.
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Neither Jews nor Muslims celebrate Christmas! :)

... just saying ;)

EDIT: but I see that was your point.
 
Road runner said:
Sigh.. This conflict is an eternal loop that will not end. The man kicks the dog, the dog bites him, he kicks harder, the dog bites harder. What a sad state of affairs indeed. And all the while both have external parties adding fuel to this fire. Spreading the hatred.. Eish! Was it Christmas just a few days ago? But alas both the man and the dog don’t know about Him.

What a pity because then they might know about forgiveness and bring an end to this sorry mess.
Click to expand...

What's that supposed to mean that they don't accept Jesus?
Rather anti-semitic thing to say but actually Muslims do believe/accept Jesus... yes Jews don't but that is not important.

Also Christians live in Palestine(including Gaza), in Israel they are a minority and like all non-Jews can't buy land and are subjected to non-Jew laws.
 
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Aqua_lung said:
What's that supposed to mean that they don't accept Jesus?
Rather anti-semitic thing to say but actually Muslims do believe in Jesus... yes not Jews but that is not important.

Also Christians live in Palestine(including Gaza), in Israel they are a minority and like all non-Jews can't buy land and are subjected to non-Jew laws.
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Muslims accept that Jesus was a prophet.

They do not accept his teachings, neither the Holy Bible, and neither Christianity.

Therefore, Christmas isn't celebrated in the Muslim community and that makes you point rather moot.

In fact, when I was living in Cape Town ... where some Muslim's a rather hostile to Christians ... some of them said that Mary, mother of Jesus was a ho-ho-ho (to paraphrase).

Which is disrespectful and callous.

In terms of the Israel action on the Gaza strip, I understand retaliation but this conflict is a bit much.
Reminds me of the old days when the British and Boers slaughtered the African's with ammunition whilst they (African's) only had spears and knopkirries.

Israel's First-World ammo vs Palestinians home-made bombs and missiles.

Crazy times we live in!
 
maestro_za said:
Muslims accept that Jesus was a prophet.

They do not accept his teachings, neither the Holy Bible, and neither Christianity.
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So? did you miss the part of me mentioning Palestinian Christians? they are living/dying under the siege too but are a minority of course.

Edit:
Actually your are generalizing all Muslims, I went to a Christian School and even Muslims attended(who were not disrespectful to Christianity).
 
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BBSA said:
So must Israel now use home-made bombs and missiles to protect their citizens while they have First-World ammo?
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Nope! I feel the conflict in general is sick.

In fact, the real solution is an autonomous state for Palestine but both sides refuse to compromise ... so the merry-go-round will continue till we have a WW3.

It's very, very tiresome.
 
Aqua_lung said:
So? did you miss the part of me mentioning Palestinian Christians? they are living/dying under the siege too but are a minority of course.

Edit:
Actually your are generalizing all Muslims, I went to a Christian School and even Muslims attended(who were not disrespectful to Christianity).
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That's why I mentioned some Muslims that said that directly to my face. I didn't clump the whole of them into my statement.

Palestinian's across the board are dying. This conflict is not a respecter of persons.
 
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