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Question of the Day: Have you ever ordered a product online and received a fake knock-off?
To all potential Felons
- Thread starter saffakanera
- Start date
GavinMannion
Executive Member
So Debbie I have now spent 6 months writing down information in my little computer package so that I can sell a new system that will improve your business.
It has cost me R400 000 in man hours and I know only 1000 people will get a benefit from it.
So to break even I need to sell it for R400 a copy plus packaging. So R500 a copy. But now it is going to take me another 6 months to make my next package so I add on another R400 to cover that time. Plus R100 for profit.
It's now a R1000. Fair price
I sell it to you, you give it to the other 1000 people and I am officially f&*ked because you don't think I should be allowed to own information... Thanks for that.
Maybe I should take up knitting instead?
Just because some people/corporations make good software that people buy is no reason to steal more money from them. Trying to justify it is stupid. Pirates put people like me out of work. Thanks....
On a side note do you have any idea how much longer it takes to make software now that we have to build in a million anti-piracy routines as well because some people are to cheap to pay what I ask? Which obviously pushes the price up.
Sorry I don't go for the whole Open Source idea, I do my job to earn money not to better society. If I wanted to do that I would join the police.
Please stop forcing your morality onto my life. Worse than bloody JW's
Debbie
Banned
I said it was arrogant to think that information can be owned, not information products. The distinction, granted, is vague. I do not know or pretend to know where to draw the line between what constitutes 'information' and what constitutes a 'product'.
Please refer to the last line in the text you quoted.
Please refer to the last line in the text you quoted.
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Pitbull
Verboten
So Debbie I have now spent 6 months writing down information in my little computer package so that I can sell a new system that will improve your business.
It has cost me R400 000 in man hours and I know only 1000 people will get a benefit from it.
So to break even I need to sell it for R400 a copy plus packaging. So R500 a copy. But now it is going to take me another 6 months to make my next package so I add on another R400 to cover that time. Plus R100 for profit.
It's now a R1000. Fair price
I sell it to you, you give it to the other 1000 people and I am officially f&*ked because you don't think I should be allowed to own information... Thanks for that.
Maybe I should take up knitting instead?
Just because some people/corporations make good software that people buy is no reason to steal more money from them. Trying to justify it is stupid. Pirates put people like me out of work. Thanks....
On a side note do you have any idea how much longer it takes to make software now that we have to build in a million anti-piracy routines as well because some people are to cheap to pay what I ask? Which obviously pushes the price up.
Sorry I don't go for the whole Open Source idea, I do my job to earn money not to better society. If I wanted to do that I would join the police.
Please stop forcing your morality onto my life. Worse than bloody JW's
Ok now I quote you from the above text.
So you would have been able to Cut R 400.00 of your cost for time spent if you didn't do the anti-pirate what ever. Fact is your wasting valuable time that could have been spent making another program. No listen and Listen Good. You will never and can't ever stop anyone from cracking your anti-pirate crap. Stop wasting time and money on it !
That will bring down the price of games and yes I might buy one instead of paying R 100 + per month to play WOW.
Think about it and talk later.
Debbie
Banned
Gavin, just something to consider- ask any scientist how their work has been constrained/held up/put aside/delayed etc BECAUSE of the refusal to share knowledge within academia.
doobiwan
Executive Member
@Bwana: Apple charges for point upgrades of MacOS, MS doesn't charge for service packs. Apples have always been expensive compared to equivalent Windows machines, but they're generally better made machines.
@Debbie2/GM - it's all in "the cathedral and the bazaar". The problem with Academia is exactly the same as commercial development, the difference is that the reward is recognition not necessarily remuneration. If it's commercially subsidised work then that's to be expected, if they want to do work for the good of mankind, then mankind has to foot the bill, i.e. someone like the government or an NGO.
I like to use OSS, I generally do where I can. (FF, Paint.NET, Virtualdub, MySQL, Super) But I see value in paying for Windows over Linux (gaming, ease of use etc), I see value in paying for editplus over notepad.
If a product provides value to me over and above that which I can obtain from a free product, then it deserves my moola.
@Pitbull, then you're just a hypocrit. you'll pay for WoW because you have to, hence if GM's AP worked, you'd pay for that too.
@Debbie2/GM - it's all in "the cathedral and the bazaar". The problem with Academia is exactly the same as commercial development, the difference is that the reward is recognition not necessarily remuneration. If it's commercially subsidised work then that's to be expected, if they want to do work for the good of mankind, then mankind has to foot the bill, i.e. someone like the government or an NGO.
I like to use OSS, I generally do where I can. (FF, Paint.NET, Virtualdub, MySQL, Super) But I see value in paying for Windows over Linux (gaming, ease of use etc), I see value in paying for editplus over notepad.
If a product provides value to me over and above that which I can obtain from a free product, then it deserves my moola.
@Pitbull, then you're just a hypocrit. you'll pay for WoW because you have to, hence if GM's AP worked, you'd pay for that too.
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GavinMannion
Executive Member
Where did you get R400 from? It would make it possibly a little bit cheaper and more would then get pirated... Your excuse does not hold up. If I made another program you and your pirate mates would steal that one to. So I end up working my @ss off to get programs out so I can survive and you bunch just steal it. Sorry that doesn't work for me.
IT people share a lot of information. Sharing is integral to all developers. How all these little things are put together is the part that doesn't get shared. Open source came from IT developers so I don't think I need a lecture here.
Have respect for what people spend their lives doing... Just because it isn't a physical piece of hardware does not mean it is less important.
nthdimension
Senior Member
So your next product would be cheaper?
And have you measured your return on the money you pour into this development? Or is it just fueled by paranoia?
I don't bother because anti-copying measures are ineffective - a waste of time and money - and people pay because they get a good product at a good price with exceptional support. No money is wasted on supporting problems caused by anti-copying measures. And paying customers are not punished for paying for the product.
What I object to is companies that try to prevent others from creating similar or compatible products. There is this myth perpetuated by the big players in the software industry that someone who for instance copies their interface is stealing something significant from them when in fact it still takes a lot of development time and money to create the clone. And during that time the original company is selling their product and should be working on improvements. That's what I do. I don't waste time and money on people chasing behind me. They're always replicating what I just did, and they're always at least a year behind.
The intellectual property landscape needs major reforms. Time limits need to be shrunk down to a few years. Especially in the computer software arena there is no reason to care about a product that is a few years old. I don't sell it anymore and even someone is happy with an ancient version with no support then its nothing to me. When Vista comes out XP should immediately lose all protection. If a musician or moviemaker hasn't made a new product after four or five years, then they had better learn to invest the big payout they got from their one effort so they can live off it for the rest of their life or get a job. Currently we treat them like charity cases - shame we must keep paying them for that music even though they wrote it 50 years ago. Or worse we're expected to give money to their offspring. My children earn their own money, unlike the whining spawn of many in the entertainment industry.
Not everyone opts for the point upgrades.
Go out today and buy a copy of the latest OsX version and a copy of XP with SP2. OsX is $129 according to Apple and XP Home is $199 according to MSoft while XP professional is $299.00.
So Debbie I have now spent 6 months writing down information in my little computer package so that I can sell a new system that will improve your business.
It has cost me R400 000 in man hours and I know only 1000 people will get a benefit from it.
So to break even I need to sell it for R400 a copy plus packaging. So R500 a copy. But now it is going to take me another 6 months to make my next package so I add on another R400 to cover that time. Plus R100 for profit.
It's now a R1000. Fair price
I sell it to you, you give it to the other 1000 people and I am officially f&*ked because you don't think I should be allowed to own information... Thanks for that.
Maybe I should take up knitting instead?
Just because some people/corporations make good software that people buy is no reason to steal more money from them. Trying to justify it is stupid. Pirates put people like me out of work. Thanks....
On a side note do you have any idea how much longer it takes to make software now that we have to build in a million anti-piracy routines as well because some people are to cheap to pay what I ask? Which obviously pushes the price up.
Sorry I don't go for the whole Open Source idea, I do my job to earn money not to better society. If I wanted to do that I would join the police.
Please stop forcing your morality onto my life. Worse than bloody JW's
Wow what a sad perspective to live your life by... I am going to have to go with Debbie2's opinion on this one.
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curiouswanderer
Expert Member
Think there are different types of opinion here. The people who are strictly against piracy. they think that even the smallest bit of copying should send you to hell. then there's those who lives are ruled by copying CDs and think there's no problem.
I think there should be middle ground where software should be at reasonable prices. Unfortunately in SA there's no such thing as a reasonable price. Since I started working this year, I'm more than willing to pay for good software that brings value for me but when u ask me to fork double of what it's worth I would think twice abt it and think abt getting a pirated copy. Piracy brings some balance into the software pricing. They are like competitors and brings vendors down to earth. Of course too much piracy is bad and I hate those who's never willing to pay for good valuable software.
If this world had no piracy, games like doom, quake etc wouldn't be as famous as it is. The creator of doom even said once that he's thankful of piracy because it made his games more widely known and more people want it. When I was small I used to play copied version of games as I couldnt afford the original. Now I pay for original sequels of those games cos I can afford it. If I never played those games when I was young, I wouldn't think of buying it.
I think there should be middle ground where software should be at reasonable prices. Unfortunately in SA there's no such thing as a reasonable price. Since I started working this year, I'm more than willing to pay for good software that brings value for me but when u ask me to fork double of what it's worth I would think twice abt it and think abt getting a pirated copy. Piracy brings some balance into the software pricing. They are like competitors and brings vendors down to earth. Of course too much piracy is bad and I hate those who's never willing to pay for good valuable software.
If this world had no piracy, games like doom, quake etc wouldn't be as famous as it is. The creator of doom even said once that he's thankful of piracy because it made his games more widely known and more people want it. When I was small I used to play copied version of games as I couldnt afford the original. Now I pay for original sequels of those games cos I can afford it. If I never played those games when I was young, I wouldn't think of buying it.
Debbie
Banned
Gavin,
It is not me who offers the morality solution, but you. Your argument, your solution to piracy........ is for people to change their morality about piracy. Please correct me if I am wrong in saying that.
doobiwan pins the essence of the debate.
Gavin, I will spare you the lecture, but I will not spare you the truth. If it is not financially viable, it is not financially viable. No one ever claimed that the system was fair.
discourse
Well-Known Member
i have bought more music albums after first downloading them online illegally. i like knowing what i'm buying. i have also gotten into new kinds of music because of the internet.
the porn industry has never taken people to court over illegal distribution of their material and they are making more money than ever. give people the freedom to experience your products fully then when the next version comes out they might want to pay for it.
in my case, this was the case with pirate dvd's. i have seen many movies on pirate dvd's first before going to see them in the movie theater.
i can also honestly say that i would happily pay R1000 for a copy of UBUNTU LINUX if it was ever sold over the counter because i have experienced how great a product it is.
same thing applies to customer service. if you treat me good when i come into your store to buy an ipod or mac mini then when i start earning more money i would come to you to buy my 17 inch macbook pro.
the porn industry has never taken people to court over illegal distribution of their material and they are making more money than ever. give people the freedom to experience your products fully then when the next version comes out they might want to pay for it.
in my case, this was the case with pirate dvd's. i have seen many movies on pirate dvd's first before going to see them in the movie theater.
i can also honestly say that i would happily pay R1000 for a copy of UBUNTU LINUX if it was ever sold over the counter because i have experienced how great a product it is.
same thing applies to customer service. if you treat me good when i come into your store to buy an ipod or mac mini then when i start earning more money i would come to you to buy my 17 inch macbook pro.
kronoSX
Honorary Master
Skeptik
Banned
Can someone PM me with a download site. I won't download anything (on Virgin GPRS... LOL). I just want to see what's on offer - how recent these things are. Thx
doobiwan
Executive Member
On the paying for software, we're talking about commodity apps, like OS's lets for a moment consider an extremity to make things clearer. (Not so hypothetical question, the company I work for is in this situation). We build a very niche product. It's taken years to develop (mucho's moola) but stands to save large corporations Millions a year. Obviously pricing of the app is set as GM laid out.
Without copyright on that application, the first customer to buy it could give it to everyone. Without law saying it's wrong, forget the moral obligation some folks talk about buying apps after pirating because there wouldn't be one. We would have no incentive to deliver the application and no one would ever benefit from our idea. In time competitors will enter the market, diluting the value of the product, the price will come down and we will have to add more features to justify the additional purchase of upgrade licenses, or support contracts. Some day OSS developers will clone the functionality down to the point of running on a cellphone, but without the incentive to recoup our investment, the idea will never come to light. Our idea of compensation for our efforts are not particularly philathropic, cash will do nicely thanks If a more open compassionate soul had come up with the idea, things may be different. But they didn't, so it's our perogative. (Do Bobby Brown dance here)
This is not a value statement of fair use, that's a different debate. It's where "what should be copyrightable, and what is patentable" become an issue. The problem is the US patent office handing patents out to whomever asks without properly establishing common knowledge or prior art. And likewise continually ammending copyright law to (now) extend to 70 years after initial publication. These are the issues of a broken system but the idea's they're suppossed to uphold are valid.
Another example: Macromedia/Adobe flash (and PDF to a degree). Consider what the web would be without it? (Okay besides no annoying ads ) No youtube, no Google video. You get the idea. Flash is proprietary, the OSS equivalent have never delivered the same level of acceptance (Think Java, SVG, Ajax) People accept it in good faith because the player is free, but fact is, you have to buy the Flash Studio in order to write Flash.
People, and South Africans in particular, place very little value in software I'd say probably because they feel they had to fork out so much for the hardware. While I understand that, it's wrong. It's not just in the consumer market it's in development as well. All the good developers are leaving SA because there is no respect for their time or skills, its "just the software", while the Bean counters and Managers line their pockets.
</rant>
A branded PC, the equivalent of a Mac ships with Windows XP Oem. For comparison, thats $91 on Amazon. If I want the latest Windows features they're either free downloads or wrapped in a free Service pack, the equivalent on a Mac will set me back $129.
As I said, notwithstanding that the Mac cost more in the first place.
Oh and CatB for those to lazt to Google http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_Bazaar
Man I gotta get to bed . . .
Without copyright on that application, the first customer to buy it could give it to everyone. Without law saying it's wrong, forget the moral obligation some folks talk about buying apps after pirating because there wouldn't be one. We would have no incentive to deliver the application and no one would ever benefit from our idea. In time competitors will enter the market, diluting the value of the product, the price will come down and we will have to add more features to justify the additional purchase of upgrade licenses, or support contracts. Some day OSS developers will clone the functionality down to the point of running on a cellphone, but without the incentive to recoup our investment, the idea will never come to light. Our idea of compensation for our efforts are not particularly philathropic, cash will do nicely thanks
If a more open compassionate soul had come up with the idea, things may be different. But they didn't, so it's our perogative. (Do Bobby Brown dance here) This is not a value statement of fair use, that's a different debate. It's where "what should be copyrightable, and what is patentable" become an issue. The problem is the US patent office handing patents out to whomever asks without properly establishing common knowledge or prior art. And likewise continually ammending copyright law to (now) extend to 70 years after initial publication. These are the issues of a broken system but the idea's they're suppossed to uphold are valid.
Another example: Macromedia/Adobe flash (and PDF to a degree). Consider what the web would be without it? (Okay besides no annoying ads
) No youtube, no Google video. You get the idea. Flash is proprietary, the OSS equivalent have never delivered the same level of acceptance (Think Java, SVG, Ajax) People accept it in good faith because the player is free, but fact is, you have to buy the Flash Studio in order to write Flash.People, and South Africans in particular, place very little value in software I'd say probably because they feel they had to fork out so much for the hardware. While I understand that, it's wrong. It's not just in the consumer market it's in development as well. All the good developers are leaving SA because there is no respect for their time or skills, its "just the software", while the Bean counters and Managers line their pockets.
</rant>
A branded PC, the equivalent of a Mac ships with Windows XP Oem. For comparison, thats $91 on Amazon. If I want the latest Windows features they're either free downloads or wrapped in a free Service pack, the equivalent on a Mac will set me back $129.
As I said, notwithstanding that the Mac cost more in the first place.
Oh and CatB for those to lazt to Google
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Cathedral_and_the_BazaarMan I gotta get to bed . . .
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GavinMannion
Executive Member
I never offered a solution to piracy, I said stealing someones work is wrong and I don't see how that makes my morals different from anyone elses. You all agree stealing a DVD from a shop is wrong. But you sit here and argue that downloading it is acceptable. Seriously
When you say financially viable are you meaning that you can't afford it? If that is the case then it really isn't my problem. If someone else can make the same software and give it away cheaper or even for free then great. If not then you either pay or you don't get it.
Entertainment, computer applications and such are not a right. You cannot say that since you can't afford it it's not fair. If you think it isn't worth the money then don't buy it. If you take it anyway it's theft. You are not in a position to tell me how much I should sell my software for. That is my prerogative I made it.
I am all for Open source software, all my smaller projects either use MySQL or SQL Express. However when I develop a large application I often need the extra features included in SQL 2005 which costs money. The client is then quoted and billed for that software.
If they don't like the cost then they don't get the software.
nthdimension said:
Sounds good but it doesn't always work that way. A mate of mine wrote a system that helps people with online forex trading. This system cost the user $500 p/m. (Insane but the information had to be paid for monthly from his supplier). Anyway he goes to the first fx office and shows them the product. They are blown away because it offers them all the information they need for 1/2 of what they are paying now and cuts their research time down by 80%.
They have 10 traders in the office which means they should be paying $5000 p/m. (still 1/2 of what they pay currently). They then say they only want one license to test the system out for a month.
Not 2 days later he gets notified that the product has been copied and now about 20 people are attempting to use it.
If he hadn't built in the anti-piracy rules he would have lost $9500 p/m. Not everyone ended up taking it but he ended up with more than $5000 p/m... If people didn't think it was acceptable to copy he wouldn't have ended up in that situation.....
Yikes, i missed so much! 
I think the basic (mis)understanding that goes on here is that stealing is wrong but copying & downloading software is right. I am finding a hard time to actually break apart the steal/copy/download portion as IMO they are the same.
Sigh.
I think the basic (mis)understanding that goes on here is that stealing is wrong but copying & downloading software is right. I am finding a hard time to actually break apart the steal/copy/download portion as IMO they are the same.
Sigh.
Pitbull
Verboten
I respect everyone’s view on this.
Pls I would to make it clear as there seems to be some misunderstanding.
I never sell my pirate copies but rather share the wealth. People selling Pirates I would agree is wrong.
This is going to be debated till end of days. Yes It maybe wrong... Selling it for a profit THAT IS WRONG !
@ Gavin. You know how to argue a case I should give you that. Maybe leave the software part and go into Law.....
Pls I would to make it clear as there seems to be some misunderstanding.
I never sell my pirate copies but rather share the wealth. People selling Pirates I would agree is wrong.
This is going to be debated till end of days. Yes It maybe wrong... Selling it for a profit THAT IS WRONG !
@ Gavin. You know how to argue a case I should give you that. Maybe leave the software part and go into Law.....