doobiwan
Executive Member
sometimes I think programmers have to be more pedantic than lawyers, just to deal with Project managers 
-
Join the MyBroadband community
South Africa’s biggest forum. Discuss, discover, and connect with thousands of members.
-
Question of the Day: How do you normally pay for purchases in stores?
To all potential Felons
- Thread starter saffakanera
- Start date
Debbie
Banned
I never offered a solution to piracy, I said stealing someones work is wrong and I don't see how that makes my morals different from anyone elses. You all agree stealing a DVD from a shop is wrong. But you sit here and argue that downloading it is acceptable. Seriously
Gavin-
1) I drew a distinction between information and information products. You failed to understand what I was saying, and proceeded to make some very incorrect assumptions about what I think.
2) If I copy a song or a movie or software (as the average semi-computer literate consumer), YES IT IS STEALING. YES IT IS WRONG.
3) If a retail outlet/company wants to charge someone two, three, four, FIVE times the price for which I would pay for the same information product in a retail store in the US - and the price difference is clearly not to cover shipping etc costs - then I see good motivation for people to pirate instead. Wrong? Yes, but here we're talking about degrees of 'wrongness' on many sides.
When I say 'financially viable' I mean it is up to you, as a developer, to make what you do financially viable given the abominable nature of man and given the abominable nature of the capitalist system in which we operate.
Pitbull
Verboten
sometimes I think programmers have to be more pedantic than lawyers, just to deal with Project managers
LOL.... true !!!!
GavinMannion
Executive Member
I have obviously missed the point between information and information products. If I develop a new way to cure AIDS.
I make a pill and I sell it. Are you saying it's okay to sell the pill but I should give away my instructions for free? I don't quite get what you are saying?
If a movie costs $10 here and $5 in the states I think you should be allowed to import it from the states. I don't think since it is cheaper in the states it makes it okay to steal it here... That logic does not make sense to me. I believe in open economies and region free everything...
However that is a mute point. Just because you feel like you are being ripped off is no reason to steal. I think BMW's are way overpriced but I don't steal them. It is the same thing.
Pitbull: I actually wanted to be a lawyer at one stage but the idea of studying for so many years and then being a dumb appy for more years put me off.
coz its the right thing to do?
say you are looking to buy a new cellphone, but you instead go to the mall and pinch it from an unsuspecting person. There, you got your free cell phone but you stole it. What does that turn you into?
chiskop
Executive Member
Actually, that is an interesting example. Pharmaceutical patents, unlike the latest Lost episode, are often a case of life and death and a strong argument can be made for waiving the patent fees on these medicines.
In general, though I agree with GavinM - it is illegal, and it is stealing. Just because it is too expensive or "humna nature" doesn't make it right.
Pitbull
Verboten
coz its the right thing to do?
say you are looking to buy a new cellphone, but you instead go to the mall and pinch it from an unsuspecting person. There, you got your free cell phone but you stole it. What does that turn you into?
Now Once again this is going out of context.
Nobody is talking about steeling a cellphone of a person.
"I make a phone the same as the let's say 9300, and i give it away for free" that is what you should have said. There is a Big difference.
Comon guys If you want to argue a point make it valid !
GavinMannion
Executive Member
Now Once again this is going out of context.
Nobody is talking about steeling a cellphone of a person.
"I make a phone the same as the let's say 9300, and i give it away for free" that is what you should have said. There is a Big difference.
Comon guys If you want to argue a point make it valid !
Comon Pitbull keep it valid. downloading the full series of 24 from bitorrents is not the same as making a series yourself..
People are talking about pure theft, it's just not physical which lets them keep their warm fuzzy feeling.
This is where I totally stand. 100% support.
Pitbull
Verboten
I agree but then again it's only info that is on the Web. I use My Pc, My DVD writer, My DVD discs etc. Yes it's not making your own series but it's also not the same as breaking into someones house and stealing their collection of 24.
That is what I'm saying you can't ever compare the two.
Natas
Expert Member
I see your point....I know pirating is wrong ( interms of the present legislative position)..if everyone pirated everything then the people who made games, or make movies wouldnt because they wouldn't be able to recoup their expenses and ultimately make a profit. This would mean no more gmaes and no more movies.....
The law of intellectual property is designed in such a way as to create a time limted monopoly in favour of the author over certain rights so that the author can recover their expenses and profit as a result of their efforts. on the other side of that coin is the fact that the legislature itself realises that information should be free and shared for the good of all. this is why all forms of intellectual property protection, (save for trademarks rights) is limited in time. To summarise a patent lasts ten years, a design registration lasts ten and fifteen years and copyright lasts fifty years, which in the case of copyright is calcultated in a convaluted way.
In the age of the electric internet things are changing and perhpas business methods should too. When the videomachine came out Movie studios were extremely upset and opposed the device in court, saying that it should be declared an illegal device which does nothing other than enable people to make illegal copies. A few years down the line, Movie Studios made more money than they ever dreamed possible because the video rental market opened up. Even in light of ALL the piracy happeing today, I have never heard fo a company developing something and not making there maney back as a result of piracy. The problem here is that for these companies no amount of money is enough. I say they amke enouigh money as it is and should perhpa snopt be so greedy. there are also other ways in which they can generate additional income...
I agree with your above quote to a certain degree...perhaps the word "deserve" should not be used.....perhaps if you cannot afford it, then you have no RIGHT to it... in line with your staement that entertainment is not a right.
As far as I'm concerned recording something that is broadcast by its owners is about as nefarious as when I used to tape the UK top 40 off the radio as a kid.
Furthermore, has anyone ever even heard of the TV producers/studios going after [-]pirates[/-] downloaders?
Furthermore, has anyone ever even heard of the TV producers/studios going after [-]pirates[/-] downloaders?
Last edited:
Natas
Expert Member
In south Africa there is an organisation called SAFACT, ie the South African Federation Against Copyright Theft....they are an industry body that represents all the major studios here in South Africa....these guys confiscate fake dvd's like its going out of fassion. People bring in 40 foot containers full of dvd's through the durban harbour....the durban harbour only manages to inspect about 5% of the containers coming throught the harbour...I have seen all the confiscated DVD's at the counterfeit goods depot....and there are litelrally tons of these things....but they come on faster than SAFACT can possible take them off the market.....
Debbie
Banned
I simply drew a broad distinction between information, and information products.
If you develop a pill to cure AIDS you should be appropriately financially compensated. If, however, in your well-intentioned efforts to be appropriately financially compensated you effectively deprive millions of people of the opportunity for life, then yes it is OK to steal, replicate and freely distribute that information across the world. You would have no right to deprive this world of that information, or the opportunity to come to that information independently. Obscure example for the purposes here, but nevertheless relevent to the debate.
I agree, and never disagreed. There is a difference between making an observation, and giving a opinion or moral judgement. You have misconstrued my observations as opinions. IOW, I described how things are, not prescribed how they should be. There is a big difference.
It comes down to what type of 'information theft' ultimately benefits society, and what type does not. I am pro the type that benefits society as a whole; and anti the type that does not. I do not know how to draw a distinction in the theory. I support time-limited patents and fair opportunity to make a reasonable return on investment (including appropriate compensation for the relative risk undertaken).
Sorry - my bad. I was referring to downloaders even though I really wasnt too clear about the medium. DVDs are a different matter as they are clearly sold for profit - I personally dont know many, if any in fact, people who sell their downloads for profit.
I've gone back now and edited the qn I posed.
doobiwan
Executive Member
Yes - TiVo
fight the man!
Deb's & GM you're both rightish (on digital media) . . .
I think most people want to be honest (or so my wife keeps telling me) but if the suppliers price the product out of the market they're setting themselves up for circumvention. Legally, that would be importing from other countries, or illegally, pirating.
Import restrictions on media, e.g. region codes, ip blocking, should be illegal, and banned on an international level.
On the drugs issue, actually everything, it's a matter of cost - the reality of ARV's is a good example. A private company developed the product and as such needs to recoup costs and make a bit of profit to incentivise further development. But there is a massive need to cheap ARV's, the company cannot just give away the product otherwise they'd go bankrupt. So governements need to subsidise costs if that's the case. At the same time it's unethical to profiteer on a life saving product. The company has a right to profit, but they need to be mindful of their margins. If the government wants it for free they should have developed it themselves.
fight the man!
Deb's & GM you're both rightish (on digital media) . . .
I think most people want to be honest (or so my wife keeps telling me) but if the suppliers price the product out of the market they're setting themselves up for circumvention. Legally, that would be importing from other countries, or illegally, pirating.
Import restrictions on media, e.g. region codes, ip blocking, should be illegal, and banned on an international level.
On the drugs issue, actually everything, it's a matter of cost - the reality of ARV's is a good example. A private company developed the product and as such needs to recoup costs and make a bit of profit to incentivise further development. But there is a massive need to cheap ARV's, the company cannot just give away the product otherwise they'd go bankrupt. So governements need to subsidise costs if that's the case. At the same time it's unethical to profiteer on a life saving product. The company has a right to profit, but they need to be mindful of their margins. If the government wants it for free they should have developed it themselves.
Last edited:
GavinMannion
Executive Member
I would have full right to deprive the world of something I invented. That is where we will never agree.
If I invented it I control it and I decide what happens with it. If I decided to give it away then I could and if I decided not to then I wouldn't.
I have no duty to society at large.
Don't worry though if by some chance I found the cure for AIDS I would share it willingly, however I would fight to the death in being forced to share it willingly.
Quick question for the Movie Pirates.
What do you think it is a fair price to download a movie legally. I am talking blockbuster titles here.
Also what would you pay to rent a d/l movie?
Its the greed that gets me - trying to squeeze extra money even for having different versions of the same material for different devices.Yes - TiVo
fight the man!
Deb's & GM you're both rightish (on digital media) . . .
I think most people want to be honest (or so my wife keeps telling me) but if the suppliers price the product out of the market they're setting themselves up for circumvention. Legally, that would be importing from other countries, or illegally, pirating.
Import restrictions on media, e.g. region codes, ip blocking, should be illegal, and banned on an international level.
On the drugs issue, actually everything, it's a matter of cost - the reality of ARV's is a good example. A private company developed the product and as such needs to recoup costs and make a bit of profit to incentivise further development. But there is a massive need to cheap ARV's, the company cannot just give away the product otherwise they'd go bankrupt. So governements need to subsidise costs if that's the case. At the same time it's unethical to profiteer on a life saving product. The company has a right to profit, but they need to be mindful of their margins. If the government wants it for free they should have developed it themselves.
I'm sitting here right now in the midst of encoding my dvd collection onto hard drive (a must if you have young kids) knowing full well that I'm committing what is essentially a crime in many lands even though I own the dvd.
Greed.
coz its the right thing to do?
say you are looking to buy a new cellphone, but you instead go to the mall and pinch it from an unsuspecting person. There, you got your free cell phone but you stole it. What does that turn you into?
well if the person walks around with the cellphone sticking out and basically saying to everyone here is a phone then whats the problem?
the point is not stealing.........if people advertise these products openingly then how can it be stealing?
stealing is something that you do without the other persons knowledge,downloading music of a website that has openinly allowed to let people take the music isnt classed as stealing is it? even if the people who created the product know about it?
so if i listen the radio and new song comes on is that stealing? the radio station played the song for everyone to listen too and do what they want with yes? so if i tape that song how is that stealing when the it was allowed in the first place to aired too everyone !