V&A Waterfront Vision

[Hosehead]

1. The Stade de France does not have a tenant and is managed successfully.
2. Are you suggesting Stade de France are some worst case scenario because Investec had too many conditions?
3. The stadium was necessary to host matches up to the semi-final stage as no other site was available and neither athlone or newlands could be expanded.
4. 2010 stadium wont affect basic services

You would be an idiot to compare Stade de France with Greenpoint Stadium for the very simple reason- affluent mass population-
Stade de France is a cachment area for the whole of the Northern France region, and easily assessible to populations of several huge neighbouring metropoles and regions like Amsterdam, London, Brussels, etc. Cape Town is virtually isolated and travel there involves long haul driving or long/medium haul flights. People cannot afford to fork out R400 for concert tickets every month.
It is a fantasy to believe that Stade de France will manage Greenpoint Stadium effortlessly. There's a slim outside chance just above none that it can be done- but odds are that the city of Cape Town is going to be left carrying the can as usual. In fact I predict Stade de France will get its fingers burnt and remember you read it here first.

You would also be an idiot to believe that the Stadium building won't affect delivery of ratepayers services. As of yet National Government has not stepped in with the extra funding required for the stadium and other 2010 Fifa demands and chances are excellent that property rates will increase again. Unfortunately as we have seen in the past few years, basic service delivery on the Atlantic Seaboard has DECLINED even though we pay double or almost double the rates we paid a few years ago. Want some examples. Just ask.

 

[Lydon]

I heard it was a mistake.

According to Lydon, you're not allowed to have an opinion. It has to be 'concrete' fact So we have to disregard both of our posts now.

Lydon, your attitude to public opinion sucks. If I had my way, you would be stuck in a back room somewhere with only a 40W bulb for light! You've gone totally out of your way not to answer any questions properly. For you, an ill-informed public is a Godsend. This forum is a two-way system. Stick to blogging, please.

"I heard" - that's about all you ever say. There's absolutely no facts to back up your opinions, which is why I find them laughable. When facts are presented to you, you simply ignore them and keep saying we haven't answered your questions - which questions? Name them.

I guess you heard wrong, as the freeway was not finished as a result of a land owner not wanting to sell his land.

I'll be willing to bet that despite being so vocal you're the first in line to ride the Cobra at Ratanga, or were the first in line at Canal Walk when Little Big Planet was released ey? What about a nice Sunday afternoon drive along Chapman's Peak? As I said - walk the walk, don't talk it.

I'll also be willing to bet you have absolutely no idea as to the fact that said unfinished freeways are soon going to be demolished, linking the sea to the city, or that Century City - oh so nasty, unsuccessful and waste-of-land Century City - is not only the second most successful business node in the Cape, but also a very important nature reserve. Your lack of knowledge is alarming

 

[Sackboy]

I guess you heard wrong, as the freeway was not finished as a result of a land owner not wanting to sell his land.

So let's analyse this then.
Is it normal for a freeway to start construction without first having ownership of the land? It sounds like a BEEG BEEG cockup to me. if you are to be believed sick

The council had no qualms about taking our land for their own purposes. In fact, when we tried to object, they were very stroppy about it. Why did expropriation not happen in the case of the flyover?

 

[Sackboy]

The Foreshore Freeway project was initially conceptualised in the early 1960s when it was proposed that an elevated freeway structure should be built along the Foreshore, as part of a ring road concept for the Central Business District (CBD). This project was overseen by Dr Solly Morris and was halted in 1977 because there was no justification in terms of traffic demand at that time for the completion of the inner viaducts. The completed sections of the freeway have fulfilled their purpose, but increased demand over time has necessitated their completion.

http://www.commonground.co.za/ffcp/

Is this the same thing?? There's a picture in the top right corner.

 

[Necuno]

I'm not your usual SHEEP.

i see you are one of this Abnormal Sheep

 

[Lydon]

So let's analyse this then.
Is it normal for a freeway to start construction without first having ownership of the land? It sounds like a BEEG BEEG cockup to me. if you are to be believed sick

The council had no qualms about taking our land for their own purposes. In fact, when we tried to object, they were very stroppy about it. Why did expropriation not happen in the case of the flyover?

Apartheid government...was a white owner from what I believe. What relevance that has is beyond me as most of the Apartheid government was one big cockup in itself.

http://www.commonground.co.za/ffcp/

Is this the same thing?? There's a picture in the top right corner.

The freeways will not be completed. Have you looked at the dates on the website you so nicely linked me to? Have a look at the completion dates hahaha:

http://www.commonground.co.za/ffcp/images/plans_tabel1.jpg

They will be knocked down. Make no mistake about it.

 

[Sackboy]

Here's more:

Unfinished freeway, an eyesore for the Cape
Sivuyile Mangxamba
November 13 2006 at 02:52PM

Cape Town's famous unfinished Eastern Boulevard freeway is set to continue its iconic status - at least until after the 2010 World Cup.

Unfinished since the 1970s, the freeway is set to still be around to greet thousands of football fans when the World Cup rolls into town, unless a financial backer intervenes.

City transport director Maddie Mazaza said: "The completion of the project is not going to be done in the short-term. It will not be done before 2010."

The Eastern Boulevard freeway was initially conceptualised in the early 1960s when it was proposed that an elevated freeway structure should be built along the Foreshore as part of a ring road concept for the CBD.

The completed sections of the freeway have fulfilled their purpose
This project was halted in 1977 because there was no justification in terms of traffic demand at that time for the completion of the inner viaducts.

The completed sections of the freeway have fulfilled their purpose, but increased demand over time has necessitated their completion.

Fast forward to the 21st century and the Foreshore has developed into a thriving business district boasting hotels, restaurants and office blocks.

There is a clear need to complete the freeway, and the city still has the plans, but Mazaza told the Cape Argus there was no budget to do so.

"If there was someone (private sector) prepared to fund the project, we would look into that," said Mazaza.

Dirk Elzinga, managing director of the Cape Town International Convention Centre, said: "I think it's a pity that at the time of construction of the Convention Centre, the freeway was not finished.

"The first thing foreign visitors see when they come to Cape Town is this unfinished freeway.

"It's very bad, unpleasant and it's an eyesore for the city."

http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=2934&art_id=vn20061113130818432C516520

I guess Lydon looked in the wrong excuse book.

 

[Sackboy]

The same guy brought us the Hospital Bend mistake as well. He also wanted to put concrete in Kirstenbosch as well!!

 

[Lydon]

I guess Lydon looked in the wrong excuse book.

Haha, I love the way you're clinging to one last hope of an argument in a desperate attempt to prove...something...whatever that may be. You think I need an excuse? You're the one presenting absolutely no facts other than a website that hasn't been updated in years and a single IOL article - because that's just proof enough. What happened to your first theory about them making a balls up with the freeway? Or do you openly admit you were, once again, spewing nonsense?

Think logically for a second...why would they even consider building a highway if there was no traffic demand? And even if there was, why haven't they finished it yet considering there is definitely a traffic demand?

At this point I'm only humouring you in answering your posts. If you think you've managed to convince anyone with any sort of logical reasoning that they should believe you, you're highly mistaken. But all is not lost...a few of my mates had a good laugh at how you've gotten owned so so badly in this thread.

 

[Necuno]

Haha, I love the way you're clinging to one last hope of an argument in a desperate attempt to prove...something...whatever that may be. You think I need an excuse? You're the one presenting absolutely no facts other than a website that hasn't been updated in years and a single IOL article - because that's just proof enough. What happened to your first theory about them making a balls up with the freeway? Or do you openly admit you were, once again, spewing nonsense?

Think logically for a second...why would they even consider building a highway if there was no traffic demand? And even if there was, why haven't they finished it yet considering there is definitely a traffic demand?

At this point I'm only humoring you in answering your posts. If you think you've managed to convince anyone with any sort of logical reasoning that they should believe you, you're highly mistaken. But all is not lost...a few of my mates had a good laugh at how you've gotten owned so so badly in this thread.

 

[Lydon]

As a personal victim of OCD, I thank thee

 

[capetownguy]

You would be an idiot to compare Stade de France with Greenpoint Stadium for the very simple reason- affluent mass population-
Stade de France is a cachment area for the whole of the Northern France region, and easily assessible to populations of several huge neighbouring metropoles and regions like Amsterdam, London, Brussels, etc. Cape Town is virtually isolated and travel there involves long haul driving or long/medium haul flights. People cannot afford to fork out R400 for concert tickets every month.

It is a fantasy to believe that Stade de France will manage Greenpoint Stadium effortlessly. There's a slim outside chance just above none that it can be done- but odds are that the city of Cape Town is going to be left carrying the can as usual. In fact I predict Stade de France will get its fingers burnt and remember you read it here first.

You would also be an idiot to believe that the Stadium building won't affect delivery of ratepayers services. As of yet National Government has not stepped in with the extra funding required for the stadium and other 2010 Fifa demands and chances are excellent that property rates will increase again. Unfortunately as we have seen in the past few years, basic service delivery on the Atlantic Seaboard has DECLINED even though we pay double or almost double the rates we paid a few years ago. Want some examples. Just ask.

1. Of course we aren't in the centre of Europe but since we are such a poor city/area why was the Grand Arena packed for the Virgin Concert, the Lionel Richie concert with about 15,000 and the Rod Stewart Concert packed too within weeks of each other. People seem to be forking out R400, contradicting your statement. Perhaps not every month, but the demand at certain times of the year is there. There was Elton John, Celine Dion...20,000+. Coke Fest 20,000+

The very reason Newlands Cricket Stadium has been used so much this year including Kenilworth Racecourse or that ridiculous location for the Celine Dion concert was due to the lack of a modern facility able to cope with large crowds of that nature.

2. The Stade de France does not have a tenant and is itself a success.
I agree that they face challenges and that these should not be overlooked but I'm also not ruling out WP Rugby moving to Green Point (the better stadium) as SAIL own a quarter of WP Rugby.

3. Why can't Stade de France manage the stadium effortlessly. Have you seen the contract? Read the negotiations with the city? Know any of the details regarding rates, maintenance..etc??

4. National Government has stepped in thrice with additional funding and are likely to step in again. Who do you think has been plugging the gap from the contracted price of R2.85 billion to the price of R4 billion? Certainly not Mugabe.

5. Is the basic service delivery decreasing suddenly because of the stadium or because the local councillor has been ineffective? Has the Green Point CID not done anything? We can find many things that are not working so well and blame it on the stadium.

Is it necessary to use "you would be an idiot" at the start of paragraph.
It makes you look dumb when you invent things e.g. "As of yet National Government has not stepped in with the extra funding required for the stadium and other 2010 Fifa demands". Perhaps a quick search of iol.co.za?

As before, I appreciate your opinions, but combining it with some fact would be a step forward.

If not, you would be an idiot.

 

[capetownguy]

So let's analyse this then.
Is it normal for a freeway to start construction without first having ownership of the land? It sounds like a BEEG BEEG cockup to me. if you are to be believed sick

The council had no qualms about taking our land for their own purposes. In fact, when we tried to object, they were very stroppy about it. Why did expropriation not happen in the case of the flyover?

What I can say is that it is unlikely that the Freeways will be finish.
It is more likely that they will be demolished and replaced with an underground route.

There are various stories regarding the Freeways not being completed.
I don't think the cost to benefit exists to warrant them being completed and is not an essential project in relation e.g. the Khayelitsha Rail Extension or the upgrading of various stations around Cape Town.

 

[capetownguy]

Sorry if I have an opinion. I'm not your usual SHEEP.

We only know what is put out there or questions asked and answered. Life is difficult for you hey?

An "ignorant" person does not ask questions, though I've noticed how quickly you resort to ridicule to support your avoidances.

Thus far, I've had so few real answers, I sometimes wonder if you really don't know or are just avoiding them. Either would be bad.

The almost dogged lack of answers further demonstrates your almost complete disregard for public opinion, as I said earlier. Couple this with your attitude to those trying to stop the stadium and it's not a pretty sight.

It isn't enough to hold meetings. You also have to listen to what is said and modify actions accordingly. It isn't just a tick on your checklist. We saw similar behaviour with the nuclear power station saga.

The problem with Council officials and their cohorts is that they feel above this and act like they own everything and have a God-given right to be arrogant about it. Lest they forget that they are public servants or even elected officials. I've met many of them, so I can speak from experience.

Clearly you're obsessed with skyscrapers, concrete and architects' plans. You probably dream about them. Nothing in the world would be allowed to divert you, even voters, because you are totally convinced that this stadium will be a success and won't hear anything contrary. How many times have we heard this story?

We see the legacy of your kind everywhere, the unfinished freeway along the foreshore, the pepperpots, the building work above the mountain, Chapman's Peak, Robben Island, Ratanga junction, Century City, Clifton & Camps Bay bunkers, Hout Bay township, Fish Hoek Police Station, Hout Bay police station etc ect...
Dream on ...

I think my answers were relevant and appropriate.
I am not continuing any debate related to the stadium because you do not bring anything new to the table except bitterness about mistakes in the past.

We do indeed live in a horrible city. Its just awful.

 

[Sackboy]

At this point I'm only humouring you in answering your posts.

You're a schoolboy who's just turned 18 and needs a shave. I'm not bothered whether you reply with your unhelpful, non-contributory comments or not.
There, now I've 'humoured you'. ("owned" indeed).

 

[Sackboy]

Is it necessary to use "you would be an idiot" at the start of paragraph.

Come now, you don't seem to like Hosehead having a go with a few choice words, but you've been doing it yourself - just look back.

I think my answers were relevant and appropriate.
I am not continuing any debate related to the stadium because you do not bring anything new to the table except bitterness about mistakes in the past.

We do indeed live in a horrible city. Its just awful.

I honestly believe you can't hold your own in a proper level-field debate.

You have glossed over my points yet again.

You don't even concede that the freeway was indeed a big mistake by preceding 'visionaries' - as I have shown. You're probably going to blame apartheid for that too.

You said the City wasn't paying anything towards the stadium, yet I read on the City's own website that they are. Again, you pretend you never said it.

I believe you have a vision about Cape Town, but you're completely oblivious to alternatives views. There is no better description apart from arrogance.

Perhaps spending so much time speaking AT people rather than WITH them?

There is a lot to do in Cape Town, but the resources are going to the wrong places. You've just admitted that the city hosted some big pop concerts. Yet when you mention figures, they don't come close to filling even 1/2 the new stadium. Your little dance again, skirting the facts

You know, I visited the City centre for the first time in months recently. I was surprised to see that it has not improved much at all. The traffic is worse with taxis blocking entire lanes of major roads (not one Metro police car), there are still grotty market stalls dominating proper shops everywhere. Greenmarket Square was still the same - not a South African trader in sight anywhere. Golden Acre is still in major decline and full of downmarket shops. The underground area was just as bad as the streets. I felt extremely uneasy walking alone there. Many businesses have moved to the suburbs and don't want to return.

I spotted 2 tourists in the whole 2 hours of my tour!

At the end, I had to fork out R7.50 per hour. (The fact that the parking marshall overcharged me by a whole hour, gave me the wrong change and was cheeky about it didn't help either )

So why isn't the City getting money. Let me guess, the money is getting flushed away down the toilet bowl with costs rising to R6 BILLION.

 

[Lydon]

You're a schoolboy who's just turned 18 and needs a shave. I'm not bothered whether you reply with your unhelpful, non-contributory comments or not.
There, now I've 'humoured you'. ("owned" indeed).

Yet you continue to answer my posts, at one point mistaking me for someone involved with the 2010 team despite my age? Please...the only one getting owned here is you. You still fail to bring any facts whatsoever to the table. Owned by a "schoolboy" doesn't speak much for you now does it?

 

[Lydon]

You know, I visited the City centre for the first time in months recently. I was surprised to see that it has not improved much at all. The traffic is worse with taxis blocking entire lanes of major roads (not one Metro police car), there are still grotty market stalls dominating proper shops everywhere. Greenmarket Square was still the same - not a South African trader in sight anywhere. Golden Acre is still in major decline and full of downmarket shops. The underground area was just as bad as the streets. I felt extremely uneasy walking alone there. Many businesses have moved to the suburbs and don't want to return.

I spotted 2 tourists in the whole 2 hours of my tour!

At the end, I had to fork out R7.50 per hour. (The fact that the parking marshall overcharged me by a whole hour, gave me the wrong change and was cheeky about it didn't help either )

So why isn't the City getting money. Let me guess, the money is getting flushed away down the toilet bowl with costs rising to R6 BILLION.

Thanks for the nice lol. It's hilarious how little facts you know with regards to the city

1) Of course traffic is going to be worse, hence the current construction of the city's BRT system and the complete overhaul of the station (which has a very good chance of going underground post-2010)
2) Public squares are undergoing upgrades
3) The golden acre is about to undergo a refurbishment
4) And "many businesses moving to the suburbs and don't want to return" is the usual bull coming out of your mouth. Office space occupancies in the CBD are at a record high. New office blocks are popping up everywhere...Portside, being Cape Town's new tallest building, consists largely of office space. You never cease to amaze me...and not in a good way.
5) As said previously, national government has and continues to step in to ease the escalating cost of building the stadium

I say one again...give us facts and figures as we have been giving you, then maybe your arguments will have any sort of weight. But each time you're proven wrong you move on to bitching about something else and so the process continues. The uninformed really are cute.

 

[Lydon]

You've just admitted that the city hosted some big pop concerts. Yet when you mention figures, they don't come close to filling even 1/2 the new stadium. Your little dance again, skirting the facts

And on another note...if you think many international concerts fill stadiums you're very highly mistaken. And did it ever cross your mind that maybe the reason more people didn't go to many of the concerts here is because there wasn't enough space to occupy any more? As usual, you also fail to have any foresight into the future - the number of people attending concerts will increase over time.

 

[Sackboy]

Yet you continue to answer my posts, at one point mistaking me for someone involved with the 2010 team despite my age? Please...the only one getting owned here is you. You still fail to bring any facts whatsoever to the table. Owned by a "schoolboy" doesn't speak much for you now does it?

If someone pretends to be 'in the know', what did you expect. Sadly your rather self-important sounding responses became quite obviously juvenile and troll-like, which prompted me to find out exactly who you were. Do you admit to posing as someone involved in 2010. (how sad is that?)

Thanks for the nice lol. It's hilarious how little facts you know with regards to the city

1) Of course traffic is going to be worse, hence the current construction of the city's BRT system and the complete overhaul of the station (which has a very good chance of going underground post-2010)
2) Public squares are undergoing upgrades
3) The golden acre is about to undergo a refurbishment
4) And "many businesses moving to the suburbs and don't want to return" is the usual bull coming out of your mouth. Office space occupancies in the CBD are at a record high. New office blocks are popping up everywhere...Portside, being Cape Town's new tallest building, consists largely of office space. You never cease to amaze me...and not in a good way.
5) As said previously, national government has and continues to step in to ease the escalating cost of building the stadium

I say one again...give us facts and figures as we have been giving you, then maybe your arguments will have any sort of weight. But each time you're proven wrong you move on to bitching about something else and so the process continues. The uninformed really are cute.

I know about 2. which has been actioned, but there is no sign of improvement.
Re. 4, I was talking about shops, which have relocated to the suburbs. (again before your time )

Speaking of facts and figures, where are yours for the points above??

And on another note...if you think many international concerts fill stadiums you're very highly mistaken. And did it ever cross your mind that maybe the reason more people didn't go to many of the concerts here is because there wasn't enough space to occupy any more? As usual, you also fail to have any foresight into the future - the number of people attending concerts will increase over time.

I've never been to a popular performance in Europe where there were ANY spare seats. The response is usually to lay on another concert date, not build bigger venues. It is not unusual to sell out within a week. We're not talking about your taste in music here