Webafrica Response To Mweb uncapped

[bullfrog]

How does a conversation about throttling vs. shaping relate to Web Africa's response? I'm not being a smart-ass, I'm honestly asking.

You're asking a forum full of people who never stay on topic, why their responses aren't on topic?

The answer is, don't bother because they won't stay on topic

 

[Abe]

How does a conversation about throttling vs. shaping relate to Web Africa's response? I'm not being a smart-ass, I'm honestly asking.

It started with me trying to say that uncapped is not for everyone because uncapped accounts are throttled. Throttled effects all usage but shaping only effects some protocols. For small businesses, uncapped isn't necessarily a good thing as they normally want their internet to be as fast as possible. Uncapped accounts do not normally fit into that bracket during working hours unless they are hellish expensive. IMHO WA are competitive at the entry level, less so but still not too bad up to 5GB and they start going way off after that. They may not want to get into the uncapped market, but either way, they are going to have to fix their other pricing.

The problem with uncapped is that everyone that has gone with a reasonable service there before has had to can it after a while. Consumers just rape it until it falls over. Ultimately, they probably would have calmed down after a few months but the service doesn't last long enough. Perhaps Mweb has deep enough pockets to survive the initial onslaught. I am sure it will help that IS is also getting in on the bandwaggon as that will help to split the load. This one could just stick. If they manage to make it stick, everyone will start going the route of large caps especially with EASSY just around the corner.

So how does this relate to WA's response. They have said that it is unsustainable. And it probably would be if people pull their normal tricks. By that I mean the people that get uncapped and then proceed to pull 1TB a month on a regular basis. Somehow, I feel that this time we may just get past that initial hurdle and it will be the end of the Telkom induced 3GB bull. I think too much is different this time. There are too many players. The initial uncapped providers will hurt from it as they are sure to take a knock while people sate themselves. But they will probably be in the pound seats later. I hope WA start to adapt because they have been a good player in the past. There is definitely a lot of hate and snide remarks directed their way on these forums which I think has been way over the top.

 

[I am Penguin]

well looks like you would have to get 4 pies now... since openweb is there and afrihost is joining.

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?222082-TechCentral-AfriHost-enters-uncapped-war

Now I'm all hungry.... for bandwidth.

 

[PeterCH]

Not at all. Just providing an objective opinion.

Did you see my post further along qualifying my statement?

Speeds in Japan go as fast as 1Gb/sec with no caps, Korea and HK run at 100Mb/sec uncapped, Europe runs at 50Mb/sec uncapped. Secondly, US ISPs are only complaining about the ultra cheap consumer plans running at faster speeds than in SA. Business plans or premium plans are not an issue with capping and the caps mentioned are huge - 200GB+ pm on cheapo plans and no limits at all on more expensive plans (cheaper than MWEB's in SA).

 

[I am Penguin]

Speeds in Japan go as fast as 1Gb/sec with no caps, Korea and HK run at 100Mb/sec uncapped, Europe runs at 50Mb/sec uncapped. Secondly, US ISPs are only complaining about the ultra cheap consumer plans running at faster speeds than in SA. Business plans or premium plans are not an issue with capping and the caps mentioned are huge - 200GB+ pm on cheapo plans and no limits at all on more expensive plans (cheaper than MWEB's in SA).

Yep, Peter You are so right. We are so bandwidth starved that we think this "NEW" services are a miracle from heaven, Yet we had this a few years ago, then before Telscum introduced paying per bit! It's by far not what it should/could be yet but maybe ..... in 20 years time, I will be able to......:erm:.........wait.......then I am R.I.P. Ah well I hope for my kids........ Wait they are....?

I give up!

 

[RoloTomasi]

It was my understanding that the MWEB uncapped accounts are not throttled (and that only the consumer accounts are shaped, with http/smtp/etc being prioritised, meaning that your surfing and e-mail will never suffer). Please enlighten me if I'm wrong.

Yes consumer accounts are shaped but http/emails receives first priority.
Throttling: Yes, but only when the network is really busy during peak hours, and only applicable to protocols with low priority on the network (like P2P). Several people elsewhere on the forum have tested torrents on MWeb accounts and during the day they get e.g. 40kB/s speeds but after 8pm it goes up to 370kB/s if using a 4Mbps line. So they clearly do some throttling during peak hours.

Not that this info has anything to do with the actual thread of course.

 

[caroper]

@Abe #82

Well said, I have been trying to say the same but you nailed it.

 

[cavedog]

Webafrica isn't thinking here.

How much bandwidth are they paying for that is actually just idling? It would be nice to know how much their network is used during peak time? 40-50% So many bandwidth idle after hours. If I start a company I would be opting to get my network running @ 80-85% 24/7 which will maximize profits even if it includes selling cheap after hours accounts.

Now the network is not being used from 00h00-06h00 but yet Webafrica is still paying for that bandwidth. Why not sell after hours uncapped for R300? Its R300 you get extra for a network that lies idle anyway. Its silly. And that is why Webafrica will loose a lot of customers. High prices will bring Webafrica to its knees.

 

[mika1000]

Cybersmart's CEO Laurie Fialkov also said it's unsustainable and not unprofitable, two months or so ago! So I cancelled my Cybersmart uncapped account.

 

[devank123]

WAmatt and WAroop are failing to see one important point...many many people are looking to there response to these prices cause they
want to stay with WA.I am with WA and want to stay with them, but I will be a fool if I pass a uncapped offering from Afrihost or MWEB
....come on WA,customers want you but not your prices.

 

[The_Unbeliever]

Dear Web Africa. I appreciate that you (Waroop and your CEO) bring up Comcast as an example of why we need data caps, I would like to see you follow in Comcast's footsteps. I lived in USA for 8 years and have used Comcast and think they are an excellent example. Let's just all be honest with each other and also acknowledge that Comcast advertises 1) High speed and 2) Low prices, their 200GB cap is so high that 99.9% of their customers never know it exists, they never ever advertise it, it is in the small print. Their competitors (Like Verizon) advertise, 1) Speed, 2) Price and 3) Uncapped. If you just look at speed and price, Comcast can be a good 30% cheaper than their competition. The masses use Comcast, the extreme power users pay 30% more elsewhere.

We have people like me who travel and have family living in USA reading this forum, so don't try to lie to your fellow South Africans and give us this crap about unlimited being unsustainable. You are insulting our intelligence and by taking one look at the other posts on this forum, no one is believing it. You can go to any mature broadband market all around the world and you will find premium quality unlimited internet either as the norm or for something like 30% more than the high-capped internet.

If you want to keep signing on new customers into next year, you will need to do the same. Give us a huge cap we will never know about for 30% cheaper than the competitively priced uncapped services and I can recommend you to a lot of non-power-users I know.

Confirmed.

I found a Comcast user who confirmed that - and also provided a link to their T&C's :

Original post is here.

Here's an Ars Technica that even links the the comcasts TOS regarding the cap..
{Snip}

Dateline: Ars Technica © 2010 Condé Nast Digital. All rights reserved.
It's official: Comcast starts 250GB bandwidth caps October 1
By Jacqui Cheng | Last updated August 28, 2008 5:16 PM

Comcast has announced that it will in fact be introducing bandwidth caps to all residential customers. The cap, which will go into effect as of October 1, will be 250GB per month. Comcast justifies the decision by saying that it's "an extremely large amount of data," and that a very large majority of customers will never cross it.

In fact, according to Comcast, this is actually the same policy that is already in place, except with more explicit numbers as to what is allowed and what isn't. "As part of our preexisting policy, we will continue to contact the top users of our high-speed Internet service and ask them to curb their usage," the company said in a statement sent to Ars. "If a customer uses more than 250GB and is one of the top users of our service, he or she may be contacted by Comcast to notify them of excessive use."

{Snip}

Link to comcasts tos

 

[Lino]

If Web Africa doesn't do something then they will end up FAIL! Plain and simple if these ISP's can sustain uncapped and it actually works. Then there is NO reason to buy bundles anymore!

 

[caroper]

The only way to make it sustainable is to stop selling bundles, that way the light users subsidise the heavy users.

 

[cavedog]

The only way to make it sustainable is to stop selling bundles, that way the light users subsidise the heavy users.

Yes. its that simple. Cause if the general public start getting uncapped. They will be more than happy being on Facebook the whole time and most of them don't even know what cap/p2p/torrents/streaming mean or where to go to get it.

 

[roxnet]

"I don't see how this is going to sustainable. Seems like Verizon (now MTN Business) Uncapped offering all over again back in 2005. Amazing offering which quickly became unmanageable. After 3 months the service degraded to a point which made it unusable and we had to refund our customers. After 6 months Verizon discontinued the service.

Cheap uncapped unfortunately makes managing the quality on the network impossible, unless they're prepared to be pumping cash into it monthly to keep the capacity excessively high - which makes it unprofitable and unsustainable in the long run. International broadband markets have proven this.
__________________
Regards,
Rupert Bryant
COO - Chief Operating Officer"

from http://forums.webafrica.co.za/showthread.php?t=3422

Sounds like sour grapes to me

its cause of these comments and ways of action that south africa has the MOST expensive broadband. rather make R1 out of 10 customers then make R10 out of one!
i believe that internet costs are going down down and will keep going down as new systems are being installed.

 

[Abe]

its cause of these comments and ways of action that south africa has the MOST expensive broadband. rather make R1 out of 10 customers then make R10 out of one!
i believe that internet costs are going down down and will keep going down as new systems are being installed.

I don't think it will work that way because your support costs will rise. It will be more like make R10 off 5 customers selling 20GB packages instead of 3Gb packages.

 

[caroper]

what worries me is that in theory it is only sustainable with a broad spectrum of users. That way low volume users offset high volume users.
If Low volume users stay with small cheaper bundles and only high volume users move to uncapped the service will either have to be excessively shaped or the price escalated to purchase wider pipes. It is not an easy problem to fix as it is the ISP's themselves that have entrenched the mind set in the users.

 

[waroop]

WAmatt and WAroop are failing to see one important point...many many people are looking to there response to these prices cause they
want to stay with WA.I am with WA and want to stay with them, but I will be a fool if I pass a uncapped offering from Afrihost or MWEB
....come on WA,customers want you but not your prices.

Hi devank123, we absolutely do realise this and as always appreciate the support.

We'll be monitoring the reception of Mwebs Uncapped products very closely, especially once they're properly loaded with users. If it truly delivers this is indeed going to bring about a positive change in the broadband market for SA, and we'll need to come back stronger. That being said there will still be a place for capped accounts in the market, as you can't deliver the same level of reliability or speed due to the nature of uncapped.

As I posted on our forums:

We are here for the long-term and thus by principle do not react without comprehensive understandings. We operate off data, not trends, and are certainly not going to slap something together to satisfy short-term pressures. We stand for quality and reliability and unless we can guarantee these we will never commit ourselves down a path that may compromise this for our customers.

Kudo's to Mweb on their new products and marketing, its easy to get excited but I'd hold the congratulations on the the uncapped offerings until they've actually proven themselves out in the market.

 

[acidb]

Yes. its that simple. Cause if the general public start getting uncapped. They will be more than happy being on Facebook the whole time and most of them don't even know what cap/p2p/torrents/streaming mean or where to go to get it.

I agree completely...but it would also be a case of having to convince these ppl to move to uncapped...in theory it sounds great, reality a very different outcome

 

[hschutte]

its cause of these comments and ways of action that south africa has the MOST expensive broadband. rather make R1 out of 10 customers then make R10 out of one!
i believe that internet costs are going down down and will keep going down as new systems are being installed.

+1 I just wish more businesses would start to understand this concept! If you have 10 happy customers paying a reasonable amount for your services and each telling 1 person about this, your return will be much higher than 1 customer paying exorbitant prices and not telling anyone. Somehow it seems this basic logic escapes most businesses in South Africa.