Why can't the "whites" do it too.

[bwana]

Mmm. In the US the minorities are protected from being subjected to discrimination based on race and belief. Quite a sensitive issue in America right now. Before I get flamed, I am not suggesting that there is no racism in America.

Perhaps there will be AA protecting white South Africans when the levels decline to a point below what should be expected. However, the question arises - should white people expect a disproportionally high percentage of high paying jobs? I dont believe so.

Even if they disband BEE down the road universities are churning out graduates of all colors so employing people based solely on qualifications will still enforce this the new status quo.

EDIT - According to the statistics provided at wikipedia 79% of the population is black compared to 8.8% being coloured, 9.3% being white and 2.5% being indian or asian - ceteris paribus - what percentage of the jobs available should therefore be expected by each group?

 

[chiskop]

EDIT - According to the statistics provided at wikipedia 79% of the population is black compared to 8.8% being coloured, 9.3% being white and 2.5% being indian or asian - ceteris paribus - what percentage of the jobs available should therefore be expected by each group?

As an additional exercise compare unemployment by race.

We still have a very long way to go before we approach employment equality.

 

[surface]

The right in applying for a job as equals, not as too white or overclassified. What happened to loking after the future of South Africa rather than the majority? A country that basis it's acceptance of a job applicant on race rather than skills are a racist country....end of discussion. Where else in the world have you seen correcting the wrong from the past taking 13 years....America didn't even spend more than 3 years looking after Hiroshima....and they nuked the people!

In india, there is a general 47% reservation policy for the special category for government jobs especially. This policy was implemented (with less percentage of reservation earlier) more than 50 years ago and still in place. I am not saying it will take that much time to address wrongs of the past in SA but 12-13 years is too short a time.

 

[GavinMannion]

Pretty soon here in America and Western Europe whites will be a minority in their own countries

You get called a racist/bigot/redneck because you spout rubbish like this.

1. USA is 70% white
2. Hispanic 12%
3. Black 12%

So whites will be the majority in the US for a loooong time to come.

Secondly it's not your damn country, you swiped it from the native Indians... You also imported all these black people into your country to use as slaves...

Your racist spouting is easily spotted in a country like SA where we have lived through and currently still live through blatant racism. Now why don't you take these types of opinions to a white supremecy site instead of whining about being called a racist on this one?

 

[jontyB]

Perhaps there will be AA protecting white South Africans when the levels decline to a point below what should be expected. However, the question arises - should white people expect a disproportionally high percentage of high paying jobs? I dont believe so.

Even if they disband BEE down the road universities are churning out graduates of all colors so employing people based solely on qualifications will still enforce this the new status quo.

EDIT - According to the statistics provided at wikipedia 79% of the population is black compared to 8.8% being coloured, 9.3% being white and 2.5% being indian or asian - ceteris paribus - what percentage of the jobs available should therefore be expected by each group?

I don't believe it should be an issue. It will take time to get companies transformed, and the BEE charters are helping in that regard. However, the issuing of share schemes to Blacks only is racial discrimination plain and simple. It is exactly that sort of activity that got SA in the mess it is in in the first place.

Also, I don't quite believe the population statistics quoted by Wikipedia there, but that's for a different argument. In terms of White vs Indian in numbers only: Indians are more a minority than Whites are, but enjoy the same BEE, AA and other benefits as Blacks? Indians are rather prominent in high paying jobs as it stands now.

 

[Fiekus]

There's a similiar thread going on at the mo: "Multichoice MNET Racist share schemes" - http://www.mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=56673

 

[bwana]

I don't believe it should be an issue. It will take time to get companies transformed, and the BEE charters are helping in that regard. However, the issuing of share schemes to Blacks only is racial discrimination plain and simple. It is exactly that sort of activity that got SA in the mess it is in in the first place.

Also, I don't quite believe the population statistics quoted by Wikipedia there, but that's for a different argument. In terms of White vs Indian in numbers only: Indians are more a minority than Whites are, but enjoy the same BEE, AA and other benefits as Blacks? Indians are rather prominent in high paying jobs as it stands now.

Are they a higher proportion than whites in these employment areas?

As for the share issue - as far as I'm concerned thats nothing more than an attempt by monochoice to get a largely uninterested segment of the population interested in the company. Its a stunt.

The population statistics all seem to stem from the 2001 census. The CIA world factbook claims a similar breakdown of

black African 79%, white 9.6%, colored 8.9%, Indian/Asian 2.5% (2001 census)

 

[Syndyre]

EDIT - According to the statistics provided at wikipedia 79% of the population is black compared to 8.8% being coloured, 9.3% being white and 2.5% being indian or asian - ceteris paribus - what percentage of the jobs available should therefore be expected by each group?

Well if ceteris paribus did hold then jobs at all levels would presumably be in line with the population groups. The fact is though that it doesn't hold. As for the question of whether whites should continue to hold the high paying jobs, if it is based solely on race then no. But if I'm white and better qualified than the other people that apply for the job should I be given the job? Yes, just as if I was black and better qualified than the other applicants I should be given the job.

 

[jontyB]

Are they a higher proportion than whites in these employment areas?

Not necessarily no.

As for the share issue - as far as I'm concerned thats nothing more than an attempt by monochoice to get a largely uninterested segment of the population interested in the company. Its a stunt.

I don't buy it. The majority of Black people in this country can barely afford to buy food, why would they even be slightly interested in a share scheme where they can't benefit anything from it for 5 years????

The population statistics all seem to stem from the 2001 census. The CIA world factbook claims a similar breakdown of https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html

So that actually emphasises my point. Indians are a smaller minority than whites but enjoy the privileges applied to the minority today (they are often part of the "Black" definition. What about Jews? I'm a Jew and the apartheid regime discriminated against Jews similarly to the way they discriminated against Indians. Coloureds are still discriminated against (Eskom fiasco refers) today, so no improvement there either...

 

[bwana]

Well if ceteris paribus did hold then jobs at all levels would presumably be in line with the population groups. The fact is though that it doesn't hold. As for the question of whether whites should continue to hold the high paying jobs, if it is based solely on race then no. But if I'm white and better qualified than the other people that apply for the job should I be given the job? Yes, just as if I was black and better qualified than the other applicants I should be given the job.

I would argue that yes - the better qualified person should get the job.

However, with the increase of equally qualified people of all colors pouring out of schools and universities the number of qualified people who happen to be while will also be proportionally lower.

BEE will be made obsolete simply because employment based solely on qualification will take over.

I don't buy it. The majority of Black people in this country can barely afford to buy food, why would they even be slightly interested in a share scheme where they can't benefit anything from it for 5 years????

The majority yes but you might be forgetting the whole black diamond demographic (I'm sure I heard it called that or something similar - apologies if I've just pulled it out of my butt and have offended) - they have plenty of disposable income.

 

[Syndyre]

Are they a higher proportion than whites in these employment areas?

As for the share issue - as far as I'm concerned thats nothing more than an attempt by monochoice to get a largely uninterested segment of the population interested in the company. Its a stunt.

The population statistics all seem to stem from the 2001 census. The CIA world factbook claims a similar breakdown of https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sf.html

Remember reading an article in the Sunday Times that the per capita income of Indians actually exceed that of whites, don't have a link or reference though.

 

[Angelo]

It will take time to get companies transformed, and the BEE charters are helping in that regard. However, the issuing of share schemes to Blacks only is racial discrimination plain and simple.

You are contradicting yourself because the charters that you refer to advocate the very share schemes you are complaining about.

 

[jontyB]

You are contradicting yourself because the charters that you refer to advocate the very share schemes you are complaining about.

No. BEE charters dictate the managerial ownership of a company. this Media24/Naspers share scheme is non managerial. *sigh*

 

[chiskop]

Are they a higher proportion than whites in these employment areas?

Not necessarily no.

That's a cheese-shop answer.

As for the share issue - as far as I'm concerned thats nothing more than an attempt by monochoice to get a largely uninterested segment of the population interested in the company. Its a stunt.

I don't buy it. The majority of Black people in this country can barely afford to buy food, why would they even be slightly interested in a share scheme where they can't benefit anything from it for 5 years????

Sure, the majority of black people won't be able to afford it. But, there will still be many who can. [Edit - I'm sure some marketer pulled the term "black diamond" out their butt first]

The population statistics all seem to stem from the 2001 census. The CIA world factbook claims a similar breakdown of

So that actually emphasises my point. Indians are a smaller minority than whites but enjoy the privileges applied to the minority today (they are often part of the "Black" definition. What about Jews? I'm a Jew and the apartheid regime discriminated against Jews similarly to the way they discriminated against Indians. Coloureds are still discriminated against (Eskom fiasco refers) today, so no improvement there either...

Indians were discriminated against under apartheid, and thus should be entitled to this kind of redress.

I really don't think that Jews were discriminated in the same way that indians were. Where Jews denied access to the best schools/suburbs/sports facilities - don't be ridiculous.

 

[jontyB]

chiskop: jews were discriminated against, to a degree I concede. Anyway, the issue on the "best schools", most whites went to public schools, which later evolved into "model c" schools. The few that went to the "best" private schools were the rich ones anyway, the same as today, so little has changed there. Back to the issue of Jews, I think you are talking from a lack of knowledge on the subject. Many Jews were deported from South Africa because they could not be classified under the racist system that was apartheid (my grandfather was put on a ship to Russia, even though he was born here in SA - my grandmother was left here alone). Jews, particularly from Turkey and similar countries were discriminated against in various ways. I speak from personal experience.

The assumption by the majority of this country that all whites were treated as kings during apartheid is utter rubbish. I know and understand that many people were treated far worse under the then regime, but for many of us it was not "plain sailing", and we were discriminated against based on our religion, our beliefs and by our use of the English language.

But this is all besides the point. Ownership in companies (such as Naspers) was reserved for a very select few. Now once again, a share scheme such as this is reserved once more for a select few.

The racism at play in this country has always additionally entailed poor vs rich

 

[Angelo]

No. BEE charters dictate the managerial ownership of a company. this Media24/Naspers share scheme is non managerial. *sigh*

BEE charters call for the inclusion of PDIs in ALL levels of a company.

 

[surface]

Not necessarily no.

I don't buy it. The majority of Black people in this country can barely afford to buy food, why would they even be slightly interested in a share scheme where they can't benefit anything from it for 5 years????
So that actually emphasises my point. Indians are a smaller minority than whites but enjoy the privileges applied to the minority today (they are often part of the "Black" definition. What about Jews? I'm a Jew and the apartheid regime discriminated against Jews similarly to the way they discriminated against Indians. Coloureds are still discriminated against (Eskom fiasco refers) today, so no improvement there either...

Issue is not about minority/majority. It has to do with non-whites & whites and Jews are whites for all practical purposes. I wonder, what did you/your forefathers choose here?

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/classroom/pages/projects/grade9/lesson6/lesson-feature-link.htm


Also, would you provide some literature which says Jews were discriminated against in SA?

Thanks.

 

[Syndyre]

What does that link have to do with anything?

 

[surface]

What does that link have to do with anything?

Well, jontyB says he is jew and was discriminated against, I am just asking him what sign did he choose in the good ol' days.

 

[DigitalSoldier]

And WTF are you people complaining about this share scheme ? Thats how stuff happen in africa people get handouts for nothing. Thats the african way :

Extract from the book you capitalist .... by Dr. Chika Onyeani:

http://www.tanserve.com/Documentary/Articles2.html

We complain and
complain and whine and whine ad nauseam about what others have done to us
and are still doing to us. We think the world owes us something. I am sorry
to say that we are delusional. Nobody owes us a thing. Nobody is willing to
give up what they have, on the excuse that we want it. If you want something
you have to go out and get it. You cannot continue to beg for manna to fall
from heaven, my brothers and sisters. You know what, unfortunately manna
never falls from heaven.

The Road to Success has charged, the Black Race is
drowning in the blame and victim-mentality game. We have three things we now
wear as body armor - slavery, colonialism and racism. We use these as
excuses for our failures. We blame all our failures on these three factors.
In Africa, we blame everything on colonialism and racism.