Why can't the "whites" do it too.

jontyB

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Issue is not about minority/majority. It has to do with non-whites & whites and Jews are whites for all practical purposes. I wonder, what did you/your forefathers choose here?

http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/classroom/pages/projects/grade9/lesson6/lesson-feature-link.htm


Also, would you provide some literature which says Jews were discriminated against in SA?

Thanks.

*sigh*

Let me explain this carefully and understandably as possibly.

1. The National Party was very influence by Germany's Neo Nazis, particularly the leaders. So much so that the stark similarities in the "Broederbond" was not exactly coincidental. Various activities by Afrikaner leaders in South West AFrica now Namibia also support this.
2. The Afrikaners hated the English immensely, for obvious reasons.
3. Anti Semitism was rife under the Nationalist party.

Anyway, for everyone's reading, not that it would influence anyone's rather blinkered perceptions:

http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/ror/page06.htm
http://www.anc.org.za/books/reich4.html
http://www.anc.org.za/books/ccsa06.html

The history in SA smacks of anti-semitism by the Afrikaner. In 1937, DF Malan told Parliament this: "I have been reproached that I am now discriminating against the Jews as Jews. Now let me say frankly that I admit that it is so."
 

jontyB

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Well, jontyB says he is jew and was discriminated against, I am just asking him what sign did he choose in the good ol' days.

Good old days? My father worked in a clothing factory for an Afrikaner that paid him what and when he decided. There was no one you could go to and report this activity, and it was a common activity. *sigh* I am so tired of hearing about the good old days rubbish. Why live in the past? By discriminating against the people now that is exactly what this government is doing - living in the past.
 

telkomsuig

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@ Digital Soldier I also read that book striking how similar african american attitute and the African attitute is. Best of all with all the EE in america there is not one Fortune 500 company started by a black american. The argument he puts forth is that normal white college grads made billions during the tech boom there and black grads rather took easy jobs in education and goverment...
 

surface

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*sigh*

Let me explain this carefully and understandably as possibly.

1. The National Party was very influence by Germany's Neo Nazis, particularly the leaders. So much so that the stark similarities in the "Broederbond" was not exactly coincidental. Various activities by Afrikaner leaders in South West AFrica now Namibia also support this.
2. The Afrikaners hated the English immensely, for obvious reasons.
3. Anti Semitism was rife under the Nationalist party.

Anyway, for everyone's reading, not that it would influence anyone's rather blinkered perceptions:

http://www.doj.gov.za/trc/ror/page06.htm
http://www.anc.org.za/books/reich4.html
http://www.anc.org.za/books/ccsa06.html

The history in SA smacks of anti-semitism by the Afrikaner. In 1937, DF Malan told Parliament this: "I have been reproached that I am now discriminating against the Jews as Jews. Now let me say frankly that I admit that it is so."

me 2 *sigh*

I wholly agree that anti-semitism was rife earlier in SA. (I will read all the links you provided in detail soon) But, I still believe issue here (in this thread) was again "privileges" accorded to non-whites currently. But you mentioned Jew link which interested me.

So,

1. Were Jews relocated to seperate suburbs like indians to Lenasia/laudium etc. and blacks to soweto etc?
2. Did Jews not have access to beaches/suburbs etc. which were reserved for whites

My interest here in purely anthropological, Thanks
 

jontyB

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me 2 *sigh*

I wholly agree that anti-semitism was rife earlier in SA. (I will read all the links you provided in detail soon) But, I still believe issue here (in this thread) was again "privileges" accorded to non-whites currently. But you mentioned Jew link which interested me.

So,

1. Were Jews relocated to seperate suburbs like indians to Lenasia/laudium etc. and blacks to soweto etc?
2. Did Jews not have access to beaches/suburbs etc. which were reserved for whites

My interest here in purely anthropological, Thanks
Let me rephrase: There was discrimination of a lesser degree. I answered your question on how I was affected (apart from me never meeting my gradfather because he was deported, and subsequently no one could trace him). We were not as discriminated against as the other portions of the population (we were not forcibly moved or denied access to infrastructure and certain areas) - it probably would have been a bit difficult to police anyway. Discrimation was applied in strange ways to different parts of the population - and it was mostly applied through intimidation by Afrikaners on Non-Afrikaners. Be that as it may, the financial hardship enforced on my parents particularly by my father's bosses over the years ensured we lived in a very poor area to begin with. I also want to stress that Jews of Persian descent were more likely prone to discrimination.

Once again, I am NOT comparing the level of discrimination (which most definitely was hatred based) that Jews of Persian descent had applied on them to the suffering and severely horrendous way in which NON Whites had applied to them. I am merely stating that to believe all whites were equally privileged under apartheid is not entirely correct.

Edit: We know of several other Jewish families where members (usually males) were deported, despite their being born here in SA.
 
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MailMan

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wrong for the right reason ?

As European 4 year here, i find it hard to accept positive discrimination,
bearing in mind the past i can accept it but should not be a permanent
situation, it is 12 year, seems long, but in the USA in most places
African Americans on average at school still underperform after 40 years,
everything will stand and fall with education and that should basically
start from day one, as at the countryside children 4/5 years old are oftenly
mentally and physically miles behind kids their age in Europe and find it hard
to hang in at school.
Education is perhaps better thatn before 1994, but that is not the benchmark,
to provide a decent quality of live which politicians promise every 2nd word
they speak is easier said than done.
Productivity is quite low, lot's of free days,poor education, no attention for
individual development, 6 million hiv positive,lack of qualified people.

So for my fellow white asses it should be fairly easy to find a job, perhaps not
precisely what you want, but a start is a start.

Jobs should be created in new disciplines and not more of the same, this seems to be quite difficult.

It's my taking that the % of people which are completely non qualified for their job is way too high to get away with it, and that starts to heart.
When a rand is spent, effectively it is le say 25-30 cent and that is not
sustanaible,don't forget a democracy does not come cheap and managing
a town or city administration is university level, to keep things going and flowing is an art in itself.

Corruption is another serious problem, it works like cancer, it spreads and
is hard to fight once it is common practice.

i quess it is really time to say goodbye within the ANC, that is not a defeat,
but a logical step and will reshape the political landshape and will hopefully
allow more choice and less characterization of parties which is ridicilous.

Defending something what's wrong for the sake of the party leadership line
is giving faceless,meaningless politicians,politicians must have mind of their
own and when they realise the people of other parties are of flesh and blood
it becomes much easier to form coalitions where and when needed.

The 2010 world championship is a great happening, but questions and real
serious structural problems will probably not adressed, but won't go away either, interestrates rise again, individual debt is quite high and the political
struggle could have a damaging impact, there is one ministery who has sorted out it;s business and that is Finance and SARS, that the whole country is not behind him as being by far the best cadidate for the Presidency is a pity as he is the only one who can manage and redirect
the ship on the right course again.As said, 12 year is short,look at West Germany 64 million people had to integrate East Germany when the wall went down, it has costed them a fortune and has costed them an arm and a leg
and are still paying for it and their Gross National Product is probably
30 times bigger as of SA.

It's positive to step away from making a color issue out of everything which is
often the easest way out but bottomline either a lack of communication skills
or running out of sensable arguments.
 

cdi

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Talking about history the invisibles need another blood river to make them white again. I think it will stop this “It is you that did us wrong” as well
 

Rendier

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Perhaps there will be AA protecting white South Africans when the levels decline to a point below what should be expected. However, the question arises - should white people expect a disproportionally high percentage of high paying jobs? I dont believe so.

Even if they disband BEE down the road universities are churning out graduates of all colors so employing people based solely on qualifications will still enforce this the new status quo.

EDIT - According to the statistics provided at wikipedia 79% of the population is black compared to 8.8% being coloured, 9.3% being white and 2.5% being indian or asian - ceteris paribus - what percentage of the jobs available should therefore be expected by each group?

So you are saying hire people based on the population % rather than skill? Brilliant thinking Bwana....perhaps when you open a company and HAVE to employ people that isn't the best(or not even properly qualified) you will sing a different tune..... This country is getting pathetic, all the media and black population sing a united nation, yet the united nation doesn't include whites, coloureds or any other race except black....

The funny thing is Apartheid affected coloureds aswell yet they have no grudge against the white man.....why must you 12 years down the line punish me for something my grandpa did? That's like sending me to prison because of something my father did....

But knowing the mentality.......I know this is falling on to deaf ears.
 
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surface

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jontyB,

Yes, "to believe all whites were equally privileged under apartheid" would be incorrect." (I never made that statement btw)

but then reverse statement "to believe ALL non-whites are equally privileged under current system" would be equally incorrect. :eek:)

I think we (at least I) am digressing from original thread, so I will stop it here.

Thanks
 

cdi

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But knowing the mentality.......I know this is falling on too deaf ears.

Very true I remeber being in Tanzania where a person said he hates Colonists because the road they build in 1975(italians) in Kenia is falling apart they build it **** they must come and fix it. LOL every blck still thinks like that one way or the other.
:D A shower will solve it:D
 

jontyB

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So you are saying hire people based on the population % rather than skill? Brilliant thinking Bwana....perhaps when you open a company and HAVE to employ people that isn't the best(or not even properly qualified) you will sing a different tune..... This country is getting pathetic, all the media and black population sing a united nation, yet the united nation doesn't include whites, coloureds or any other race except black....

The funny thing is Apartheid affected coloureds aswell yet they have no grudge against the white man.....why must you 12 years down the line punish me for something my grandpa did? That's like sending me to prison because of something my father did....

But knowing the mentality.......I know this is falling on too deaf ears.
I think what Bwana was trying to say was that eventually the "racial" representation in the work force for jobs should = a similar "racial" representation in terms the overall population, something that was not allowed to happen in SA naturally.
 

bwana

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So you are saying hire people based on the population % rather than skill? Brilliant thinking Bwana....perhaps when you open a company and HAVE to employ people that isn't the best(or not even properly qualified) you will sing a different tune..... This country is getting pathetic, all the media and black population sing a united nation, yet the united nation doesn't include whites, coloureds or any other race except black....
Oh I'm sorry - are only white people skilled now?

You might want to take a minute out of your pulpit time to look up what ceteris paribus means.

EDIT - I'll help you out - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceteris_paribus
 

Syndyre

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The funny thing is Apartheid affected coloureds aswell yet they have no grudge against the white man.....why must you 12 years down the line punish me for something my grandpa did? That's like sending me to prison because of something my father did....

But knowing the mentality.......I know this is falling on too deaf ears.

While I agree with the example you mention the reality goes even further, a lot of whites, particularly English-speaking whites, never supported Apartheid, and yet they're still expected to suffer for the actions of people they never supported in the first place.
 

jontyB

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jontyB,

Yes, "to believe all whites were equally privileged under apartheid" would be incorrect." (I never made that statement btw)
You didn't say it, but it certainly appears to be a common misconception, particularly among the leading majority today.
but then reverse statement "to believe ALL non-whites are equally privileged under current system" would be equally incorrect. :eek:)
Agreed. However overall wealth determines how privileged you are today, which is also the wrong path to follow.
I think we (at least I) am digressing from original thread, so I will stop it here.

Thanks
Cool.
 

Rendier

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Oh I'm sorry - are only white people skilled now?

You might want to take a minute out of your pulpit time to look up what ceteris paribus means.

You are making my point....are only black people skilled???? Nope, so why then offer them jobs only, and not whites....

You are contradicting yourself...

But like I said, your mentality are of a third world nature....and will stay that way....

The question you must ask yourself is do you REALLY know what Ceretis Paribus means.....cause if you do then your not really showing it in your posts...
 
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bwana

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You are making my point....are only black people skilled???? Nope, so why then offer them jobs only, and not whites....

You are contradicting yourself...

But like I said, your mentality are of a third world nature....and will stay that way....

The question you must ask yourself is do you REALLY know what Ceretis Paribus means.....cause if you do then your not really showing it in your posts...
With everything else being equal the breakdown of racial diversity in the workplace will eventually fall along the same lines as the racial breakdown of the population. The golden days are over - get used to having to fight for a job just like everyone else.

I've only been here for a few years but I've managed to figure it out.
 

Rendier

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get used to having to fight for a job just like everyone else.

I don't mind fighting.....but what's the point if Im fighting a losing battle against 99% of the black population saying that they are deprived and Affirmative Action....I really wish I was black......nah actually im glad im white.....white chicks are so much more attractive.....and the black guys know it! :D
 

bwana

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I don't mind fighting.....but what's the point if Im fighting a losing battle against 99% of the black population saying that they are deprived and Affirmative Action....I really wish I was black......nah actually im glad im white.....white chicks are so much more attractive.....and the black guys know it! :D
I get what you're saying times are tough and will be for some time to come but I'm being optimistic for a future which is equitable to all races. That's the future I'm preparing my kids for.

What the country needs are more jobs - unemployment still stands at 25% afaik. Eradicating that would go along way towards getting things right.
 

Rendier

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I get what you're saying times are tough and will be for some time to come but I'm being optimistic for a future which is equitable to all races. That's the future I'm preparing my kids for.

What the country needs are more jobs - unemployment still stands at 25% afaik. Eradicating that would go along way towards getting things right.

Trust me when I say this..... The white people of this nation has been ready for the country to become one since 1990......the fact however is that the black people of this country are clinging to an idealistic hope of controlling every aspect of the country, which is unfair seeing that it's a "Rainbow Nation". You can look at it from every angle and see that reverse discrimination is taking place....The message to the world was "we forgave and moved on" yet in South Africa there isn't a mention of forgiving...it's only Payback time...

Trust me Bwana, I too want the future to be bright for this country where ALL blacks and ALL whites can live together without hesitation....but the government is causing the white people to feel Alienated in their own Country....I was born in Africa, that's makes me African....why must I feel like an immigrant if Im from here?

There is a new kind of hatred brewing....the same hatred the black people felt in the 80's......and if this goes on then there's never gonna be equality in this country.
 
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