Windows 7 minus IE

[apogeeza]

Originally Posted by bekdik View Post
Now you have me confused. By removing IE, the user will have to download a browser. If the user is capable of downloading a browser when none is installed, why can't they download a browser when IE is installed?

Many posters to MBB indicate that they are running multiple browsers on Windows systems, so obviously Microsoft is not doing anything to make it difficult to install any browser capable of running on Windows.

Exactly +1 ... well put. It shows that the whole EU thing was just sour grapes.

They could have ruled that every PC maker in the EU had to set the computer's start page to a website which offered every other browser under the sun.

Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall one of the Google submissions to the tribunal. I seem to recall the events like this:
- Google & Apple release their own implementations of desktop search
- MS counteract with their pseudo maccy version on Vista
- MS did not release Desktop Search (DS) for XP because Google DS already ran on XP
- Benchmarks showed that while Vista was in still development, Google DS performed admirably, outpacing Vista DS
- Just before final release, suddenly Google DS runs slowers and Vista DS outpaces it

So why did Google cry foul at anti-trust because MS beat them in speed? Not because MS were better and developing superior products, but because all of a sudden Google DS was running slower than itself and they had evidence: MS was actively making Google DS run slower than itself to give Vista DS the market edge.

Caught out. Fined. Patch distributed, but the air will remain foul.


Agreed, MS are not actively preventing the install of browsers, I certainly would not put it past MS impede their performace, esp. since MS hate Google and are now armed with a middleware too.

With all the gazillions of auto-updates, there is nothing stopping MS from progressively screwing with all other competitors.

 

[apogeeza]

They will do their level best to get IE8 installed as the first browser ... and we all know: most users once they have a browser, who needs another, or a better, because necessity is out the window so choice at that point is of little relevance.

To that aim, they need to get the word out, look at the new MS tactic:

download IE8, it's for charity ...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10263790-56.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=BeyondBinary

Artists put the finishing touches on a replica of the Golden Gate Bridge constructed from soup cans. The stunt was aimed at drawing awareness to Microsoft's Browser for the Better campaign, in which the software maker is donating to a food bank for each download of Internet Explorer 8.
(Credit: Microsoft)

 

[Sackboy]

Exactly +1 ... well put. It shows that the whole EU thing was just sour grapes.

They could have ruled that every PC maker in the EU had to set the computer's start page to a website which offered every other browser under the sun.

Yeah, so you download FF and the minute you try and do something from MS or a software company that prefers IE, they ask you to use IE only. You're stuffed by MS dirty tactics through and through.

 

[Sackboy]

Anyone who's used Nedbank in the past few months will also have noticed that the statement downloads were not working on standard FF. Yet, if you used IE, it worked. Clearly something is screwy.

 

[kingmonty]

Linux has a package manager, NO? Why can't MS have one too?

Linux has a package manager precisely because installing applications is not just double click and follow the wizard process.

 

[PeterCH]

Linux has a package manager precisely because installing applications is not just double click and follow the wizard process.

You mean installers don't copy tons of DLLs into your /system32 directory or fill your registry with useless entries either?

 

[kingmonty]

You mean installers don't copy tons of DLLs into your /system32 directory or fill your registry with useless entries either?

Yeah, because that's all windows installers do .

 

[PeterCH]

Yeah, because that's all windows installers do .

You obviously see nothing wrong with having tons of weird DLLs in your system folder and your registry messed up by useless entries. I do.

When you're unistalling an app, a message box pop-up asking for confirmation of a particular DLL can be deleted or not. During installation on the other hand, sometimes weird messages come up warning you that the file you're copying is newer than an already present file or vice versa. Seems very user friendly to me and definately designed so as to avoid programs from not overwriting other programs' DLLs.

 

[kingmonty]

You obviously see nothing wrong with having tons of weird DLLs in your system folder and your registry messed up by useless entries. I do.

When you're unistalling an app, a message box pop-up asking for confirmation of a particular DLL can be deleted or not. During installation on the other hand, sometimes weird messages come up warning you that the file you're copying is newer than an already present file or vice versa. Seems very user friendly to me and definately designed so as to avoid programs from not overwriting other programs' DLLs.

Actually I know a bit more about Linux, development, development libraries, packages and package dependencies than you do. I will also not be roped into one of your nonsensical anti windows flame fests. As far as I'm concerned, you can go choke on some anime.

Edit. thanks for the "time waste". You're ignored so don't bother responding.

 

[PeterCH]

Actually I know a bit more about Linux, development, development libraries, packages and package dependencies than you do. I will also not be roped into one of your nonsensical anti windows flame fests. As far as I'm concerned, you can go choke on some anime.

Edit. thanks for the "time waste". You're ignored so don't bother responding.

But I use Mac OSX and Windows and for installing apps, Mac OSX trounces Windows. LOL. Oh well....

 

[Sackboy]

Linux has a package manager precisely because installing applications is not just double click and follow the wizard process.

Gonna agree there. And Ubuntu packages aren't compatible with the others.

 

[Tassidar]

So much aggression!

Just Friday I was forced to install a database from source on Ubuntu as I needed a configuration option that was not available with the default apt-get install. On windows that option is a checkbox during the installation of said database. So, no, it's not entirely speaking right out of his @rse.

Um, ya. It's a browser, it will almost certainly be in the repositories. And as I recall with .deb packages you can download and double click to run. Also, just remember that the options were: thumb drive, copy it to a CD, FTP over command line and Get help from the garden boy. Unless the garden-boy helped you compile from source, your argument doesn't validate his argument.

You're right, it isn't entirely speaking right out of his @rse; he is almost entirely speaking right out of his @rse, but I have yet to use any of those options in Linux, while I have used the first and second plenty of times in Windows.

Anyway, back onto topic...

As for the tying of separate software products, in its Microsoft judgment of 17 September 2007, the Court of First Instance confirmed the principles that must be respected by dominant companies. In a complaint by Opera, a competing browser vendor, Microsoft is alleged to have engaged in illegal tying of its Internet Explorer product to its dominant Windows operating system. The complaint alleges that there is ongoing competitive harm from Microsoft's practices, in particular in view of new proprietary technologies that Microsoft has allegedly introduced in its browser that would reduce compatibility with open internet standards, and therefore hinder competition. In addition, allegations of tying of other separate software products by Microsoft, including desktop search and Windows Live have been brought to the Commission's attention. The Commission's investigation will therefore focus on allegations that a range of products have been unlawfully tied to sales of Microsoft's dominant operating system.

For ECIS Microsoft’s announcement is lacking because:

* Abuses continue. Windows 7 will only be released later this year. No measures are announced to address ongoing abuses or the installed base of IE on over 90% of personal computers which Microsoft has built up over the last decade through its illegal tying practices even though rival products were better.
* Reports indicate that Microsoft does not intend to offer this remedy on a worldwide basis, continuing to deprive consumers in other regions of a choice of browsers and further deepening anti-competitive network effects that will impact European users.
* Microsoft has a history of vitiating measures designed to promote competition. Microsoft must commit to giving personal computer manufacturers (OEMs) and consumers a real choice and not replace the illegal tie with other actions or financial incentives meant to replace the technical tying of IE and Windows.
* Microsoft must refrain from using its super-dominant Windows platform to replace the illegal tie with other leveraging practices. Microsoft must also put an end to its practice of overriding user default preferences for other browsers, calling up IE code even when users have chosen to uninstall IE or using its Windows update function to distribute IE to the detriment of alternative browsers.
* Microsoft must commit to finally putting an end to its illegal tying practices for all separate products, not just WMP and IE. After foreclosing competition in the media player and browser markets, Microsoft should not eliminate competition for other applications through similar tying practices.
* Commitments are needed to avoid circumvention of the illegal IE tie by tying other Microsoft products such as Silverlight.

“For the above reasons, the Commission’s proposed ballot screen remedy which provides consumers with a REAL choice remains necessary,” Vinje stressed. This remedy would mean that buyers of new PCs be provided with the preloaded ballot screen or an alternative browser other than IE as selected by the OEMs. For the installed base of IE users, Windows updates and IE updates would come preloaded with other browsers and a ballot screen. The ballot screen with a choice of at least five preloaded browsers should also be provided to customers who buy Windows through the retail channel to upgrade their PCs.

I think the point to remember is how MS won the browser wars, and its tactic of EEE: Embrace, enhance and eliminate. MS used IE6 to introduce proprietary standards that caused lock-in. Therein lies the anti-competitive behaviour, far more than the bundling of the browser itself.

To answer the question about installing the browser, the answer is through the ballot screen.

Also, perhaps its important to note that Opera is a European company while MS is (obviously) American. I think the implications of the court case go far beyond Microsoft (can't confirm, only a hunch).

 

[journeyman]

Well that means the other suppliers of browsers cannot make theirs available as downloads only. hehehehe. They must sell CD's with their browsers. This means the user will start to pay more again.
I suggest leave IE on Windows and users can download what ever browser they want as it is currently happening.

 

[d0b33]

Linux has a package manager precisely because installing applications is not just double click and follow the wizard process.

BS!
I downloaded, skype, opera, virtualbox, chrome dev build, canon printer driver and handbrake . deb packages from their sites, I just click the package and it will run and install itself.

This is why ubuntu keeps gaining popularity more and more apps are packaged for it.

But I use Mac OSX and Windows and for installing apps, Mac OSX trounces Windows. LOL. Oh well....

I use OSX, linux and windows and can't agree more, osx is king when applications are concerned. Most apps can be stored on a separate partition or disk and after a system format all your apps are still there no need to reinstall anything, preferences will be cleaned out if not backed up of course.

 

[Gekco]

This discussion has degenerated into the most childish item I have seem on myBB yet...

 

[I am Penguin]

And why the fCU@K do these threads always result in a ****ing war between Linux and Windows users?

Or the peterCH Japanese version operating system, Sorry I mean the MacApple fanboi MacOSX system.

I love Windows because it works
I'd love Linux but its a bit of a drag to get used too.
I hate OSX because it was a rippoff from the start and never really got the hang of the market.

There is only space for one system in a persons life, time is a factor.

 

[kingmonty]

BS!
I downloaded, skype, opera, virtualbox, chrome dev build, canon printer driver and handbrake . deb packages from their sites, I just click the package and it will run and install itself.

This is why ubuntu keeps gaining popularity more and more apps are packaged for it.




I use OSX, linux and windows and can't agree more, osx is king when applications are concerned. Most apps can be stored on a separate partition or disk and after a system format all your apps are still there no need to reinstall anything, preferences will be cleaned out if not backed up of course.

Admittedly Ubuntu changed a lot of things. However, I was speaking more from a historical point of view (In the early days of redhat **** like RPM was a mess). But hey, your BS call is from such a tiny frame of reference that I will ignore it point blank. Enjoy your Sunday.

 

[Tassidar]

Admittedly Ubuntu changed a lot of things. However, I was speaking more from a historical point of view (In the early days of redhat **** like RPM was a mess). But hey, your BS call is from such a tiny frame of reference that I will ignore it point blank. Enjoy your Sunday.

Now there's a good argument. Windows ME was the slowest most unstable operating system I've ever used, therefore I conclude that Windows 7 is the same.

You're grasping a straws here. The early days of Redhat have absolutely nothing to do with the current versions of Fedora, OpenSuse, Ubuntu, Mandriva etc...

Perhaps you should look at your frame of reference, you might find it a bit outdated.

 

[diabolus]

You're grasping a straws here. The early days of Redhat have absolutely nothing to do with the current versions of Fedora, OpenSuse, Ubuntu, Mandriva etc...

Heh, maybe because WINDOWS had everything to do with the current incarnations of "desktop friendly" Linux Distros. I won't be surprised if those pet peeves [i.e. the DLLs] mysteriously find it's way on your Linux desktop too eventually .

Unfortunately as much as people like to push their Linux agenda, everyone on a PC STILL have a windows platform in some form [that includes you Wine-it-is-not-an-emulator people...check the DLLs on that thing ].

Instead of attacking Windows as an OS, people should attack the companies who is making the applications for Windows [and not for Linux] . The reason i'm not using Linux is not because of Linux [i found Ubuntu perfectly easy to use for basic stuff] , but because of all the stuff that is NOT on Linux, including an entire missing gaming platform. Even the whole entertainment [graphics engines/drivers] aspect was not fully supported until recent times....and you had to go through hell getting it to work only to realize there's nothing you can freaking do with it anyway.

I played World of Warcraft on Ubuntu, but it was a horrible inferior experience after hours of fiddling with settings, now ask Blizzard why don't they make a Linux version (without the use of DLLs and any other Windows based tech) instead of wondering how Microsoft got 11 million users from Blizzard alone?

Ubuntu is great "out of the box" , but the moment you get past all the "cool it got all these goodies right here on my desktop!" part and dig into it, you realize that "rich experience" is missing. You know, everything feels disjointed, not integrated, a zillion little lose apps that does not "quite" do what you could do in Windows......

 

[I am Penguin]

Admittedly Ubuntu changed a lot of things...................

For me its a case of Too little too late. No way will I part with Windoze just for the sake of it. Total integration in windows are so huge it will take Ubuntu lightyears to play catchup. Linux is a nice sideline, not an office desktop.