Zuma gunning for the constitution

[R13...]

Well now the whole country is under siege from crime
As for the economy, you really think its in such great shape?

Not in great shape but the lifting of sanctions has resulted in it being better than it was back in the dark days. Graphs have been quoted a hundred times here to show that it's better.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Well now the whole country is under siege from crime

Indeed. Your claim that South Africa used to be safe is still false, though.

As for the economy, you really think its in such great shape?

In many ways, yes. We didn't suffer as badly as other countries in the financial crisis due to sound regulation and our banking system is quite healthy and strong.

Can it be better? Naturally. That'll always be true. But that wasn't what you were talking about, you said the economy was healthy during Apartheid. It wasn't.

 

[Electric]

Not in great shape but the lifting of sanctions has resulted in it being better than it was back in the dark days. Graphs have been quoted a hundred times here to show that it's better.

Lifting of sanctions cannot be directly related back to economic improvement though.
Naturally things would seem to have improved because of the increase in foreign money.
That doesn't mean the economy is any better of for it.

 

[themba990]

Lol is that really what you believe???
I dont think you are right on a number of points.
We had much the same during Apartheid and look what heppened

This is why I'll vote ANC until I die, because there are still people who think like this in SA.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

Lifting of sanctions cannot be directly related back to economic improvement though.
Naturally things would seem to have improved because of the increase in foreign money.
That doesn't mean the economy is any better of for it.

Huh?

That's exactly what it means.

This is why I'll vote ANC until I die, because there are still people who think like this in SA.

So not because you were dropped on your head as a child?

His statement is patent nonsense, but your position is just as irrational, shortsighted and plain stupid.

 

[Electric]

Huh?

That's exactly what it means.

So let's go back in time.
Lift sanctions and see how the economy does.
Compare the 2.
Do you believe the economy is in a better position now than it was then, in the context of the comparison above.

 

[Zenbaas]

This is why I'll vote ANC until I die, because there are still people who think like this in SA.

So you vote for corruption, wastage of funds, theft and based on skin colour..? ****ing sad man. There are ALTERNATIVES to the anc you know... Unless you're only voting anc because you agree with their "amazing" governance. Actually are you one of those people that believes apartheid will return if the anc loses power?

And lastly Themba, you do know that you're also one of those people you so eloquently refer to in your post... Right?

 

[R13...]

So let's go back in time.
Lift sanctions and see how the economy does.
Compare the 2.
Do you believe the economy is in a better position now than it was then, in the context of the comparison above.

You can't have it one way. To lift sanctions means you would have to assume apartheid never happened along with all of the consequences it brought. And that means there'd be no two things to compare as no apartheid means things would be a lot better for all from the beginning, everyone educated and able to contribute in all sectors, etc.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

So let's go back in time.
Lift sanctions and see how the economy does.
Compare the 2.
Do you believe the economy is in a better position now than it was then, in the context of the comparison above.

Invalid comparison. You can't just remove the part of the economy you don't like. Sanctions were a reality of the economy of the day.

 

[themba990]

So you vote for corruption, wastage of funds, theft and based on skin colour..? ****ing sad man. There are ALTERNATIVES to the anc you know... Unless you're only voting anc because you agree with their "amazing" governance. Actually are you one of those people that believes apartheid will return if the anc loses power?

And lastly Themba, you do know that you're also one of those people you so eloquently refer to in your post... Right?

I don't know about that but I know that the ANC will not bring back apartheid.

Zuma is not the ANC, the ANC is not Zuma. Don't use the actions of an individual to define a movement that has been in existence for more than 100 years...

 

[Electric]

Invalid comparison. You can't just remove the part of the economy you don't like. Sanctions were a reality of the economy of the day.

I agree.
I'm not disagreeing with any of your statements.
I don't believe that our current economy can be directly compared to a time when sanctions were in place.
It's not a fair comparison by any means.
It can't always be argued so simply.
Sanctions clearly hampered our economic growth so how could you possibly compare the 2 economies subjectively.
It's like comparing the economies of 2 countries.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I don't know about that but I know that the ANC will not bring back apartheid.

Zuma is not the ANC, the ANC is not Zuma. Don't use the actions of an individual to define a movement that has been in existence for more than 100 years...

Zuma is there only because the ANC keep him there. Trying to disassociate the organisation from the leader is laughable. He's a symptom of a morally void, politically obsolete and hopelessly incompetent organisation.

You are holding South Africa back, and tacitly supporting corruption, maladministration and incompetence. Thanks, buddy.

 

[Zenbaas]

I don't know about that but I know that the ANC will not bring back apartheid.

Zuma is not the ANC, the ANC is not Zuma. Don't use the actions of an individual to define a movement that has been in existence for more than 100 years...

Do you honestly believe that the only thing wrong with the anc is Zuma...? REALLY? Themba990;11869570 open your eyes my man. There is theft and corruption at all levels of government. When corruption is exposed the anc tries to cover it up. The whole organisation is sick to its core. The anc of old is not the anc of today. Everyone wants part of the pie at the expense of poor people. They don't give a flying **** about you or your family. Looks what happens when they catch criminals like Shabir Shaik and Selebi.... They send them home on "medical" grounds. Open your eyes. Not a single party in SA will bring back apartheid. No one will allow that to happen. But vote elsewhere... The anc is bleeding us dry at this rate. Don't vote with your heart... Vote with your head.

 

[Sherbang]

Are you bloody joking? It was the law yes or no?
Were people realitvely safe? Yes they were without doubt.

You can deny it all you want, just because we were against the racial part is one thing, point is people were safe and crime was low.

OK then.... During apartheid:

- The government was upholding the rule of law. NOT
http://www.bdlive.co.za/opinion/201...ence-on-the-long-tail-of-apartheid-corruption

One recent investigation of apartheid grand corruption is being led by the public protector, who is reportedly investigating the role of financial institutions (possibly also implicating the South African Reserve Bank) in economic malfeasance during apartheid. At the centre is the "lifeboat" scandal, involving loans by the Bank to some of the country’s largest banks in the 1980s and early 1990s, that were essentially converted into gifts ("lifeboats"). Former finance minister Barend du Plessis signed off on these — to the benefit of his brother, among others, who sat on the board of one of the banks.

However, there are a litany of other issues which demand equal attention from state bodies tasked with tackling corruption. We have selected a few examples of Open Secrets that may have slipped citizens’ minds:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Biko

On 18 August 1977, Biko was arrested at a police roadblock under the Terrorism Act No 83 of 1967 and interrogated by officers of the Port Elizabeth security police including Harold Snyman and Gideon Nieuwoudt. This interrogation took place in the Police Room 619 of the Sanlam Building in Port Elizabeth. The interrogation lasted twenty-two hours and included torture and beatings resulting in a coma.[17] He suffered a major head injury while in police custody at the Walmer Police Station, in a suburb of Port Elizabeth, and was chained to a window grille for a day.

- We had an active civil society. Well yes we did but they were banned by the government, imprisoned, exiled and killed

Prior to the 1960s, the NP government had been most effective in crushing anti-apartheid opposition within South Africa by outlawing movements like the ANC and PAC, and driving their leaders into exile or captivity.

- We had freedom of the media. NOT

While some sectors of the South African media openly criticised the apartheid system and the National Party government, they were hampered by various amounts of government censorship during the years. For example, journalist Donald Woods became renowned after he fled to live in the United Kingdom in exile after helping to expose the truth behind the death of Steve Biko, the leader of the Black Consciousness Movement, along with renowned journalist and current South African politician, Helen Zille. After the end of apartheid in 1994 however, censorship ended and a new constitution was enacted which has a Bill of Rights that guarantees that every citizen has the right to freedom of expression, which includes freedom of the press and media, the freedom to receive or impart information or ideas, freedom of artistic creativity, academic freedom, and freedom of scientific research.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_of_South_Africa

- The economy was reasonably healthy. NOT

In 1990 the white president Frederik Willem (F.W.) de Klerk recognised the economic unsustainability of the apartheid system and released Nelson Mandela the black nationalist leader and unbanned the African National Congress (ANC) that Mandela led.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_history_of_South_Africa#Economic_unsustainability_of_Apartheid
We have a growing black middle class.

We did not have a history of military interventions in politics. NOT

The 1960s ushered in a new era in military history. South Africa's growing international isolation and the military threat by SWAPO and its Communist backers in South West Africa (now Namibia) prompted the government to increase military service obligations repeatedly and to extend periods of active duty. The Defence Act (No. 12) of 1961 authorized the minister of defense to deploy Citizen Force troops and Commandos for "riot" control, often to quell anti-apartheid demonstrations, especially when it deteriorated into mob riots with loss of life. The Defence Act (No. 85) of 1967 also expanded military obligations, requiring white male citizens to perform national service, including an initial period of training, a period of active duty, and several years in reserve status, subject to immediate call-up.

From 1966 to 1989 the SADF, with its South West African Territorial Force auxiliary, fought a counter-insurgency campaign against South-West Africa People's Organisation (SWAPO) rebels in South-West Africa (Namibia). These operations included the raising of special units such as the South African 32 Battalion. They also carried out operations in support of UNITA rebels in Angola and against the Cuban troops that supported the Angolan government.

As far as conventional formations were concerned, 7 SA Division and 17, 18 and 19 Brigades were established on 1 April 1965.[6] Difficulties with manning levels saw the disestablishment of 7 SA Division on 1 November 1967 and its replacement by the Army Task Force (HQ) and 16 Brigade.

 

[R13...]

I agree.
I'm not disagreeing with any of your statements.
I don't believe that our current economy can be directly compared to a time when sanctions were in place.
It's not a fair comparison by any means.
It can't always be argued so simply.
Sanctions clearly hampered our economic growth so how could you possibly compare the 2 economies subjectively.
It's like comparing the economies of 2 countries.

A simple metric is to just look around and see how more people are better off now compared to the past and mind you this was brought on by marine's absurd assertion that things were better in terms of crime and the economy and the brutal truth is that what he suggest is not true.

 

[cr@zydude]

Generational gaps take a bit longer these days, but I agree with the sentiment. However, our constitution - whilst it needs some adjustment - doesn't need the complete rewriting that something like the US Constitution does and has needed for centuries.

I agree that 19 years is rather short, and that constitutions should be 'living organisms'. I do however find it odd, that in a thread discussing constitutional chances, that no one else responded to this post.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

I agree.
I'm not disagreeing with any of your statements.
I don't believe that our current economy can be directly compared to a time when sanctions were in place.
It's not a fair comparison by any means.
It can't always be argued so simply.
Sanctions clearly hampered our economic growth so how could you possibly compare the 2 economies subjectively.
It's like comparing the economies of 2 countries.

Err, that's done all the time...

We can compare them, because sanctions very much held back proper economic development, much like ANC schizophrenia is holding it back now. There will always be challenges, but we can still compare the two economies, the reasons for their growth and the reasons for their stagnation.

Fact remains, the economy boomed after apartheid ended. Partly due to the lifting of sanctions, partly due to increased globalisation, partly due to inevitable resource flow into the biggest economy in Africa.

 

[OrbitalDawn]

*snip*

Always applicable:

Apartheid Grand Corruption

 

[Electric]

Thanks for the clarification and explanation.
I really am just trying to spark up conversation over arguing so please don't misconstrue my posts.

 

[Garson007]

It seems that a prevailing thought that still seems to linger is that Apartheid wasn't directly responsible for sanctions; hint: it was.