Article: DA apologises for fake ANC pamphlets

[w1z4rd]

a group of individuals - some of whom are part of the Libertarian Society of South Africa
I will find out more when they launch at the Spring Seminar

Does Afriforum play a part in this? They seem big on punting libertarianism.

So just to be clear on this? Are you forming an anti-government party to govern with? Or how does it work?

How do the different levels of libertarianism reconcile this? What are your policies? I would love to read them. Or is this still in concept phase?

 

[Paul Hjul]

As I said, I am no angel. But to call me a fanatic is dishonest. In fact you called me many names in this thread. "DA Bunny", "Zealot", "Adherent". When none of them are true. Your dishonest implication of my character with those words is that I follow the DA blindly. I certainly do not. I often question them and my leaders. If something is wrong I question and do something about it. I base my judgement on the balance of empirical evidence. But yeah, your intentional use of those words was a character assassination to belittle anything I said. You are being intentionally misleading. Im really surprised you cant see or wont admit to that. Even when I get it wrong at least I am honest and fess up.

But I get you. Im guessing some of your libertarian views are rejected by the DA, so you feel personally rejected. I wish you were as critical of the ANC as you were of the DA. Good luck on your libertarian party. I imagine its going to be as successful as herding cats.

I am not a Libertarian your viewing the word "adherent" as offensive is amusing to say the least. Nope in fact it is the DAs rejection of actual liberalism that greats my cheese especially because they claim to have a liberal history.

 

[Paul Hjul]

Does Afriforum play a part in this? They seem big on punting libertarianism.

and the tinfoil hats come out but no I am not aware of anybody involved with a libertarian party who is a member of Afriforum. Of course the DA and Afriforum have a remarkably shared membership - not shared enough for the DAs liking what with that pesky FF+

 

[w1z4rd]

I am not a Libertarian your viewing the word "adherent" as offensive is amusing to say the least. Nope in fact it is the DAs rejection of actual liberalism that greats my cheese especially because they claim to have a liberal history.

You are not libertarian? I thought you wrote a book on it? (I could be wrong here).

Aah, that explains your personal vendetta against them. The DA are still liberals, theyve just evolved into modern liberals. I wish you focused this amount of energy on the party destroying our country rather than the one that hurt your feelings for not staying your type of liberal.

 

[STS]

They've apologized sure that's great. Now think about this, what would the ANC have done? Deny, blame shift, lie and blame shift then the evidence will suddenly disappear. Well done to DA for come out with it straight.

we're often told "we're so desensitized to crime that we're grateful just to survive a robbery." same applies to politics "we're so desensitized to politics, we don't even mind if people are caught any more, just as long as they say sorry."

 

[Paul Hjul]

Nope I have written a paper on applying a libertarian approach towards land reform, I have also presented to libertarians why the state should expend all surplus resources on welfare and why Reganomics is bad, and will be presenting a paper on why privatization and nationalization are of the same cloth.

And I love the description of a vendetta where none exists. The DA are not liberals by any definition, at best the DA can be viewed as utilitarian opportunists with seething cynicism. My annoyance with the DA is having to clean up their mess and watching the DA vote with the ANC on badly drafted incoherent and ultimately dangerous legislation, my annoyance with the DA is their introduction of nanny state practices without actually caring for the poor. What grates my cheese to no end is that the DA are keener than the ANC to discount half the electorate as stupid and unfit to govern their own lives.

 

[falcon786]

Well I always said I don't trust the DA,they seem very fake,I'm betting there's much more that they are capable of doing but they paint themselves as angels.

I'll still vote for them in the next elections to give the ANC run for their money but lets not fool ourselves the DA are just good at hiding things.The ANC are not good at hiding things.

 

[STS]

Nope I have written a paper on applying a libertarian approach towards land reform, I have also presented to libertarians why the state should expend all surplus resources on welfare and why Reganomics is bad, and will be presenting a paper on why privatization and nationalization are of the same cloth.

And I love the description of a vendetta where none exists. The DA are not liberals by any definition, at best the DA can be viewed as utilitarian opportunists with seething cynicism. My annoyance with the DA is having to clean up their mess and watching the DA vote with the ANC on badly drafted incoherent and ultimately dangerous legislation, my annoyance with the DA is their introduction of nanny state practices without actually caring for the poor. What grates my cheese to no end is that the DA are keener than the ANC to discount half the electorate as stupid and unfit to govern their own lives.

+1

Hope nobody see's that

 

[mushroom]

Paul haji are you also in politics like goati and what party to you come from because I maybe want to vote for you because you did sound like you know alot about what we need when you did reply to goati

 

[w1z4rd]

Nope I have written a paper on applying a libertarian approach towards land reform, I have also presented to libertarians why the state should expend all surplus resources on welfare and why Reganomics is bad, and will be presenting a paper on why privatization and nationalization are of the same cloth.

What was your book on? You told me you wrote a book and gave me a link one time.

And I love the description of a vendetta where none exists.

I think me and many other people in this forum... there is a different perception.

The DA are not liberals by any definition,

Except they are.

"The DA is broadly centrist, though it has been attributed both centre-left[4] and centre-right[5] policies. The party is a member of Liberal International and the Africa Liberal Network."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Alliance_(South_Africa)
Also listed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism#cite_note-67
South Africa: Democratic Alliance (South Africa)[66]

So to everyone else but you and a handful of other libertarians, the DA are a liberal party. As I said, just because they dont fit your narrow definition doesnt make them any less so.

at best the DA can be viewed as utilitarian opportunists with seething cynicism.

Shame, I see a bunch of hard working good people who are in this to make SA better, and when I say hard working, they are worked to the bone. But yeah as I showed earlier in this post, you have your own views even if they conflict with reality of others. I see young black kids fighting the same injustices liberals had to fight during Apartheid. White Liberals were demonized by the Apartheid government who used Swaart gevaar as their weapon. Young black liberals have to fight the perception of wit gevaar the ANC have put down. You got youth out there literally bleeding to get our message out there. So your misrepresentation of all the hard work and sacrifice they are putting is is down right revolting. Shame on you.

My annoyance with the DA is having to clean up their mess and watching the DA vote with the ANC on badly drafted incoherent and ultimately dangerous legislation,

Yes, you keep bringing this up, and I keep telling you that it was done under the previous leadership and the leaders I have spoken to have all acknowledged it was their worst moment. You see, whats the point of discussing issues with you when you ignore the explanations. You will not let this go no matter what the DA do.

my annoyance with the DA is their introduction of nanny state practices without actually caring for the poor.

This is a complete and full lie. I know how much the DA are working in disadvantaged areas. I know that where they govern the poor areas get more attention than the rich areas. You sir, are certainty NOT telling the truth here.

What grates my cheese to no end is that the DA are keener than the ANC to discount half the electorate as stupid and unfit to govern their own lives.

Another blatant misrepresentation.

Dude... common....really now.

Which is worse in your eyes? The DA or the ANC?

 

[HideInLight]

The DA takes responsibility for their actions and hold their own people accountable. That's the difference between the DA and ANC, without that characteristic you get absolute corruption.

 

[cr@zydude]

It's a bad move by the DA. This goes to show that no party is made up of saints. I saw this on Facebook today. Normally I'd have a laugh about it, except that the poster is a DA Student Organisation member.

 

[Devill]

Piss poor form, DA. You can't hold the moral high ground while wading in ****. Disappointed.

+1

Very disappointing.

 

[Paul Hjul]

What was your book on? You told me you wrote a book and gave me a link one time.

Nope I said I have two published academic papers (one is coauthored) and furnished the T&F link to the one: it is on Alan Paton and the Liberal Ideal - you know Alan Paton of the South African Liberal Party, a major theme of the work is on Black Consciousness Movement and the conflict of the time.
My other paper is on the Regulation of Gatherings Act.
I have also written other published pieces on the tragedy of South African politics and have an essay on Land Reform.

Except they are.

"The DA is broadly centrist, though it has been attributed both centre-left[4] and centre-right[5] policies. The party is a member of Liberal International and the Africa Liberal Network."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Alliance_(South_Africa)
Also listed at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_liberalism#cite_note-67
South Africa: Democratic Alliance (South Africa)[66]

So to everyone else but you and a handful of other libertarians, the DA are a liberal party. As I said, just because they dont fit your narrow definition doesnt make them any less so.

Until Liberal International revokes the DAs membership - which is likely to happen in the long run.
My definition of liberal is actually significantly broader than most. The problem is that the chief requirements are non-authoritarian; adherence to the Rule of Law; support for free and engaged political expression. The DA fails on all three.

Shame, I see a bunch of hard working good people who are in this to make SA better, and when I say hard working, they are worked to the bone. But yeah as I showed earlier in this post, you have your own views even if they conflict with reality of others. I see young black kids fighting the same injustices liberals had to fight during Apartheid. White Liberals were demonized by the Apartheid government who used Swaart gevaar as their weapon. Young black liberals have to fight the perception of wit gevaar the ANC have put down. You got youth out there literally bleeding to get our message out there. So your misrepresentation of all the hard work and sacrifice they are putting is is down right revolting. Shame on you.

Nope I see hard working South Africans of all persuasions working their asses off to make SA a better country only to be ****ed around by party incompetence. The sheer number of decent people who leave the DA is testimony to the rot of the party.

Yes, you keep bringing this up, and I keep telling you that it was done under the previous leadership and the leaders I have spoken to have all acknowledged it was their worst moment. You see, whats the point of discussing issues with you when you ignore the explanations. You will not let this go no matter what the DA do.

The attitude of the current leadership and a refusal to understand and address the actual problems makes it an evil: A mate of mine yesterday put it perfectly - under Leon and Gibson the DA was cynical but principled, under Mazibuko the DA is cynical and opportunistic. Under Zille the DA has blacklisted journalists and did nothing to address Leon's monumental ejection of the most brilliant of people in a set of idiotic petty purges.

This is a complete and full lie. I know how much the DA are working in disadvantaged areas. I know that where they govern the poor areas get more attention than the rich areas. You sir, are certainty NOT telling the truth here.

Cape Town NGOs are pretty universal in their feedback that under DA rule the City has been to the detriment of the poor.
The DA has a wonderful habit of wanting to treat certain areas as "poor areas" and to bring their own brand of service delivery - all the while actually fueling misconception ... Having heard DA councillors spread falsehoods about the operation of prepaid electricity sales and when confronted with the facts simply shugging and saying "well thats what the constituents want to hear"
So no the truth is that the DAs real interest is in voting fodder rather than in actually making a better society.

Which is worse in your eyes? The DA or the ANC?

They are complementary evils - the ANC of today exists because of the DA and the DA defines itself in terms of the ANC.

 

[Garson007]

The problem with the DA is that they will always stay an opposition party. Who knows what they'll actually do when they get into power. Rather vote for a small party that adheres to your ideology. I will.