Boks vs NZ

Joel Stransky: "So how does it feel playing against one of the games best fetchers in Ritchie McCaw?"
Heinreich Brussouw: "Playing against one of the best in the world is very nice..."

:D Ahhh, gotta love Rugby players...particularly of the Forward variety
 
LancelotSA said:
So now someone please tell me where the HUGE gaps in defence have come from all of a sudden!?!?!? From about the time Morne Steyn came on!

That try was as a result of Conrad Smith running right thought that bloody idiot Morne Steyn! Whooppppeeee do so he gets 3 points, which Frans could have got anyway, and gives away 7! Nice! As much as I hope the Boks win I hope you idiot supporters of his learn your lesson!
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Errrm a little premature don't you think.

Morne missed his tackle, he is not first rugby player to have ever missed a tackle.

If you say a fly half does more than kicking but you know his kicking is no good then WTF are you letting him kick? Give the ball to steyn.

Steyn vs pienaar is settled and i cannot see how PVD will not pick him next week instead of pienaar.

The all blacks just played better second half if you ask me, we defended damn well for a lot of the time in that second half and a apart from a missed tackle and a try we defended darn well. Not to mention morne actually kicked the ball over the posts :D
 
At times the play was a bit scrappy, but I guess that's what you get when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
 
LancelotSA said:
You guys are so blinkered when it comes to Morne! If the truth is told Morne scored 9 points in penalties, two of which Frans would have taken anyway if Ruan was on the field, but clearly was responsible for giving away 7 when Conrad Smith ran right over him.

Ruan scored a try of his own making and kicked a further penalty.

Final tally Ruan 8, Morne 2... .and the winner is!


And this is purely taking into account kicking. In all honesty Morne is shocking in general play. Keep an eye on him and watch how often he thinks he is playing touch rugby and touches the attacking players rather than tackling them. Take a peek at the possession and territory stats between the two halves. And what was the only change? Flyhalf! Makes one think... well except those blind Bulls fans who will not see this...
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You forgot to take off the missed penalties. He missed 4. Morne missed 1. It'll give you a different result than to the one you calculated ;)

Morgoth said:
I thought the primary goal of a fly-half is to spread the ball, decide when to kick or run.
He is a bad kicker yes, but he controlled the game well,
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Yeah, I suppose so. It's their role to be the "anchor" in the backline, but that's not a hard thing to do at that level of rugby. It's still very important to get over your kicks etc., if you are the designated kicker.
 
killadoob said:
Errrm a little premature don't you think.

Morne missed his tackle, he is not first rugby player to have ever missed a tackle.
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Yes, and you are right. But when some people see him as the messiah and he misses such an elementary tackle to let in a try then you need to take note. Remember you need to kick three penalties for every try you leak (converted of course before you try to correct my math). So he better get his kicks over.

I would rather work on Ruan and Frans' kicking than go for Morne. He still needs to prove himself! He is not the be all and end all!

If you say a fly half does more than kicking but you know his kicking is no good then WTF are you letting him kick? Give the ball to steyn.
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This makes no sense whatsoever... you start by arguing my point and then switch half way through the sentence!

Steyn vs pienaar is settled and i cannot see how PVD will not pick him next week instead of pienaar.
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You're blinded!
 
Chris said:
You forgot to take off the missed penalties. He missed 4. Morne missed 1. It'll give you a different result than to the one you calculated ;)
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Um, why do you subtract missed kicks? Is that what they do in rugby nowadays? I had no idea they do that! :rolleyes:
 
Why can't anyone see past the fact that all Morne is good at (and very good) at kicking from wherever on the field ...... his other aspects of play are predictable and dodgy, be honest ffs.
 
LancelotSA said:
Um, why do you subtract missed kicks? Is that what they do in rugby nowadays? I had no idea they do that! :rolleyes:
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You're being silly now. In your calculation, you took off 7 points from Morne's personal tally or what it 'cost' the team. Ruan Pienaar 'cost' the team 12 points. Anyway, this is getting a bit silly. As Killadoob as said, the debate is now over, Morne should be picked ahead of Pienaar. I wonder what the Defenders of the Realm will say when Pienaar actually costs his team a victory through dodgy kicking.
 
Chris said:
You're being silly now. In your calculation, you took off 7 points from Morne's personal tally or what it 'cost' the team. Ruan Pienaar 'cost' the team 12 points.
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YES! Because 7 points were scored!! You're being silly, or ignorant. In rugby it is points that are SCORED that count! We could, if we used your bizarre method of calculation, say Morne cost another 15 points as a result of not distributing the ball properly, not creating space and being one dimensional. Having Ruan on the field is like having two sniping, side stepping, kicking, quick passing scrum halves... keeps the opposition guessing. In fact on occasion Ruan even slipped into scrum half with Fourie at flyhalf. Imagine trying to defend and not really knowing who is playing what role.

Anyway, this is getting a bit silly. As Killadoob as said, the debate is now over, Morne should be picked ahead of Pienaar. I wonder what the Defenders of the Realm will say when Pienaar actually costs his team a victory through dodgy kicking.
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Does Morne have a 100% kicking record in all rugby? Hmm, never knew that either, I am learning so much from you.

The game was won in the first half already, Richie McCaw admitted as much, and this was when Ruan was setting up the backline and we were dominating.

Mephisto_Helix said:
Why can't anyone see past the fact that all Morne is good at (and very good) at kicking from wherever on the field ...... his other aspects of play are predictable and dodgy, be honest ffs.
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I am in total agreement with you! But unfortunately these blinkered Bulls/Morne fans will never see it. If they cannot see it after he lets through
Conrad Smith to let the Blacks back into the game then they are never going to see it. They are lucky though as he will never get injured as he spends most of the time standing off the play... a bit like another Bulls flyhalf of years gone by!
 
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The_Techie said:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
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Don't expect me to read all that. If you feel like adding to the argument then feel free to use your own words. It is not as hard as it seems. ;)

I'll simplify it for your benefit then. Morne is also capable of missing a kick. He too could cost the Boks one day with a missed kick. In fact he almost did it today with his shocking defence!
 
LancelotSA said:
Don't expect me to read all that. If you feel like adding to the argument then feel free to use your own words. It is not as hard as it seems. ;)

I'll simplify it for your benefit then. Morne is also capable of missing a kick. He too could cost the Boks one day with a missed kick. In fact he almost did it today with his shocking defence!
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Sorry, I was expecting a bit of comprehension. OK, then I shall type it out for you then:

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. You have just attacked the straw man.

I wonder what the Defenders of the Realm will say when Pienaar actually costs his team a victory through dodgy kicking.
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Does Morne have a 100% kicking record in all rugby? Hmm, never knew that either, I am learning so much from you.
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Please show me how that was stated or even implied or else you're just attacking the straw man.

Though I'm not arguing about Morne Steyn's defence, was quite shocking.

EDIT: Here we go again I guess :p Nothing personal though, but fallacies bug me :p
 
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The_Techie said:
EDIT: Here we go again I guess :p Nothing personal though, but fallacies bug me :p
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Ha ha no problem. I enjoy the odd bit of banter...

But I think I answered your point above already. Ruan is being knocked purely for missing kicks. If Morne does not have a 100% record then he too misses kicks. Ruan may cost the Boks a game by missing a kick, but equally so if Morne were the one playing he too could just as easily have lost that same game if he had to take that same kick.

Yes, his success percentage may be higher but in my view it would need to be 100% for any kick from our own 10m line or closer before it would compensate for his short comings and negate what Ruan offers.



EDIT : And I have said this before but I often do not even take note of the names of the person I am "arguing" with. When seeing your name now I had a recall of us being on "good terms" but then I just answer as I feel anyway. Next time we chat I will not taint it with any previous discussions. I actually wish more people on here would do that. Some carry baggage with them from one thread to the next :)
 
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LancelotSA said:
Ha ha no problem. I enjoy the odd bit of banter...

But I think I answered your point above already. Ruan is being knocked purely for missing kicks. If Morne does not have a 100% record then he too misses kicks. Ruan may cost the Boks a game by missing a kick, but equally so if Morne were the one playing he too could just as easily have lost that same game if he had to take that same kick.

Yes, his percentage may be higher but in my view it would need to be 100% for any kick from our own 10m line before it would compensate for his short comings and negate what Ruan offers.
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Sure, he misses kicks as well but taking the argument to the extreme doesn't do much to substantiate your position ;)

But that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am of the opinion that having a better kicker (percentage wise) will be more beneficial. But then again, the type of flyhalf you'd want is dictated by the type of gameplay that you want to play, so this is a pointless argument :p

LancelotSA said:
EDIT : And I have said this before but I often do not even take note of the names of the person I am "arguing" with. When seeing your name now I had a recall of us being on "good terms" but then I just answer as I feel anyway. Next time we chat I will not taint it with any previous discussions. I actually wish more people on here would do that. Some carry baggage with them from one thread to the next :)
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No worries, I do enjoy arguing with you about rugby though it'll never lead anywhere :) But yeah, we've always been on good terms ;)
 
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The_Techie said:
Sure, he misses kicks as well but taking the argument to the extreme doesn't do much to substantiate your position ;)

But that is your opinion and you are entitled to it. I am of the opinion that having a better kicker (percentage wise) will be more beneficial. But then again, the type of flyhalf you'd want is dictated by the type of gameplay that you want to play, so this is a pointless argument :p
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Yeah but those are the most fun. If there was a clear valid winning argument then it would never be as enjoyable.

You also make a point which some Bulls fans could do well to take note of. The Boks are not the Bulls. So stop calling for all the Bulls to be Boks. The Boks have their own game plan. They have different needs in different positions.

We could just as easily take this argument further and ask what they all feel about Frans Steyn now. At one point there was also a chorus of calls for him to get the chop... to be replaced by a Bulls player of course! I thought he was great today.
 
LancelotSA said:
Yeah but those are the most fun. If there was a clear valid winning argument then it would never be as enjoyable.
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Fair enough, such is the way of subjective sport :p

LancelotSA said:
You also make a point which some Bulls fans could do well to take note of. The Boks are not the Bulls. So stop calling for all the Bulls to be Boks. The Boks have their own game plan. They have different needs in different positions.
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Most certainly. I wouldn't want a single provincial side to be representative of a country's rugby in any case. But then again I'm a rugby supporter first and foremost and a Bulls supporter as well :)

LancelotSA said:
We could just as easily take this argument further and ask what they all feel about Frans Steyn now. At one point there was also a chorus of calls for him to get the chop... to be replaced by a Bulls player of course! I thought he was great today.
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I'm still not convinced he's the best fullback defensively (I prefer Stefan Terreblanche) but as an attacking fullback we could do worse (Earl Rose anyone? :p). As for wanting to get him replaced by a Bulls fullback, I'd prefer to not have Zane Kirchner in a Springbok side thank you ;)
 
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