Buthelezi slams affirmative action

[RogueTr00per]

True but perhaps, there was little evidence of companies embracing transformation. What do you do, wait until it normalizes? Someone had to make a decision. We need to build upon it and perhaps debate issues around the abuse and problems in implementation of the policies rather than debating the policies themselves.

Hmm... I don't know how viable an idea like this is, but they could have provided tax incentives for businesses for each 'black' employee. In that way giving businesses the choice to make decisions for the good of the business as opposed to being forced to meet quotas. They could still implement something like this if they ever chose to do away with AA in its current form...

What to do about companies with an unofficial policy of keeping non-whites out? I don't know... it's a tough one...

Question: Are all females considered to be PDI or 'black'? Are black females considered more PDI than coloured or white females?

 

[Bageloo]

Hmm... I don't know how viable an idea like this is, but they could have provided tax incentives for businesses for each 'black' employee.

the incentive is obviusly government contracts/tenders.

What to do about companies with an unofficial policy of keeping non-whites out? I don't know... it's a tough one...

I'm glad someone in the forum is awake to the fact that such scenarios exist. It's only human nature. It's the same as speeding and only slowing down when you see metro police or a speed camera!! people will generally not act responsibly unless there's a possibility of prosecution.

Question: Are all females considered to be PDI or 'black'? Are black females considered more PDI than coloured or white females?

I think (might be wrong) the black african female gets the highest AA ranking and the white female gets the lowest. Anyone who has the exact scores please post.

 

[iMonga]

if u check the BEE score cards females r considered PDI, they have refined the process now and the ratings go something like this

African Female
African Male
Coloured Female
Coloured Male
Indian Female
Indian Male
White Female
White Male

ie companies score more BEE points for having more black females than black males and so on!!!

 

[ToxicBunny]

Bageloo : gvt tenders/contracts lately are not going to the best bidder(even on BEE/AA basis) but to a bidder who has inside connections, so even that incentive has been lessened to a large degree.

There is very little that can be done about companies that want to keep non-whites out, they just can't win some contracts, and some companies won't deal with them.

This issue is of course a huge minefield of political and emotional tensions, but as always by including ALL stakeholders, the gvt can get everyone on their side, and come up with a decent policy and implementation guideline where everyone benefits and the country grows.

 

[marine1]

ANC Gravy plane hard at work

 

[Bageloo]

ANC Gravy plane hard at work

I have spoken strongly against the ease with which BEE can be used as a sidestep to real transformation. This benefits mostly the top ANC people at the expense of the workers. I am in favour of transformation happening from the bottom up as opposed to BEE which apraches from the top. The former is more likely to benefit the poor man at the bottom as opposed to creating black capitailsts from former communists/unionists/socialists.

 

[Syndyre]

Your statement does not make sense for someone resident in the country. Unless you have some secret news subscription channels, you are subject to the same GVT propaganda you are refering to.

Its not that simple. By virtue of being on here we have access to internet which allows us to access virtually any information, something most of the population can't, partially as a result of government (in)action. Also if you can afford DSTV, something again most of the population can't, you can get international news channels.

 

[Syndyre]

Is this a proof that the vast majority of people in this country listen to what the GVT says?

Which radio stations do the vast majority of people in this country listen to?

SABC radio stations. Enough said.

 

[Syndyre]

I thought sub-saharan africa had recorded the fastest economic growth compared to other regions. The canines must be doing a pretty good job then.

Even if this is true, which I'd like to see evidence of, its a lot easier to have a high rate of economic growth when you're starting from a very low base. To use an oversimplified example if you have a GDP of US$1 Billion and another country has a GDP of US$10 Billion with the growth rates being 6% and 3% respectively their actual growth in real terms will be far higher due to 3% of 10 Billion being more than 6% of 1 Billion even though their actual growth rate in percentage terms is double.

 

[Syndyre]

Apartheid != Racism. You are making an assuption that racism ended with apartheid. Apartheid was legislated racism. What about racism in the social and working circles? A racist is someone who thinks racial inequality is justified. At the moment there is racial inequality in the workplace. You are either a denialist or a blatant racist if you are opposed to measures that are meant to address this racial inequality.

Why do you assume racism is only of the Apartheid type? How do you propose dealing with anti-white racism which AA doesn't even consider. Does AA really even help solve racism? I think it may jus perpetuate it through the resentment it creates.

 

[iMonga]

Why do you assume racism is only of the Apartheid type? How do you propose dealing with anti-white racism which AA doesn't even consider. Does AA really even help solve racism? I think it may jus perpetuate it through the resentment it creates.

resentment it creates? you can't create what already exists! there's always been resentment between the races in sa, would say AA perpetuates the resentment that already exists!

 

[Bageloo]

Why do you assume racism is only of the Apartheid type?

I didn't, hence I said aprtheid is gone but racism remains.

How do you propose dealing with anti-white racism which AA doesn't even consider. Does AA really even help solve racism? I think it may jus perpetuate it through the resentment it creates.

AA cannot solve the racism problem but it can go a long way in ensuring that those people that would have been excluded from participating in the economy, actually get the opportunity to do so.

 

[dlk001]

resentment it creates? you can't create what already exists! there's always been resentment between the races in sa, would say AA perpetuates the resentment that already exists!

Indeed. I say no more or maybe I will.

 

[Syndyre]

resentment it creates? you can't create what already exists! there's always been resentment between the races in sa, would say AA perpetuates the resentment that already exists!

I would never deny racism and resentment exist. Unfortunately any society, even one without SA's history will have some racism, fortunately though its usually confined to fringe, extremist groups. I think these groups are probably larger than normal in SA and exist as a subset of all races, the problem with policies such as AA, BEE etc. is that they threaten to make racism more mainstream by making race a major factor in everyday life and yes, fuelling resentment etc. I don't think empowerment is an inherently bad idea but I think it should be for all presently disadvantaged citizens of whatever race, which would, due to the current situation, naturally favour blacks anyway and could take the form of educational bursaries, internships etc.

 

[RogueTr00per]

resentment it creates? you can't create what already exists! there's always been resentment between the races in sa, would say AA perpetuates the resentment that already exists!

There is still resentment to create so I have to disagree with you there.

Anyone entering tertiary education or looking for that first job now is going to be bombarded by government policies about how the blacker you are the better. If you aren't an 'African' male or female, then chances are u will face legislated discrimination.

if u check the BEE score cards females r considered PDI, they have refined the process now and the ratings go something like this

African Female
African Male
Coloured Female
Coloured Male
Indian Female
Indian Male
White Female
White Male

ie companies score more BEE points for having more black females than black males and so on!!!

I'm a 3rd generation South African citizen, and of Chinese ethnicity. I think it was Bageloo that said I am supposed to choose where I fit in on the above score card rating. Since I don't feature in the above list, the most appropriate option for me is 'African Male', since I was born on this continent.

Anyone have a problem with that...?

 

[dlk001]

Anyone entering tertiary education or looking for that first job now is going to be bombarded by government policies about how the blacker you are the better. If you aren't an 'African' male or female, then chances are u will face legislated discrimination.

If you are an 'African' male or female, chances are you, your parents, their parents have been discriminated or still facing discrimination.

 

[RogueTr00per]

Let me just add, I identify with the plight of non-whites and whites alike. The problem is how do we proceed to build a happy nation and right the wrongs of the past while not creating new wrongs... It's not lekker if your parents and ancestors were oppressed, but likewise, it's not lekker to be currently discriminated against because of what your parents and ancestors let happen.

That said, I'd rather be a white south african [1] and currently discriminated against than a black south african brought up in a township with no hope of really making it in the world. Of course, being white and poor now would be as bad as being black and poor, so at this point in our democracy, I don't think it's a race thing so much as a money thing.

Here's an interesting question: If you come from a wealthy black family do you need or deserve the same helping hand that someone from a poor family (white or black) gets?

[1] Assuming I had access to decent tertiary education

 

[iMonga]

I would never deny racism and resentment exist. Unfortunately any society, even one without SA's history will have some racism, fortunately though its usually confined to fringe, extremist groups. I think these groups are probably larger than normal in SA and exist as a subset of all races, the problem with policies such as AA, BEE etc. is that they threaten to make racism more mainstream by making race a major factor in everyday life and yes, fuelling resentment etc. I don't think empowerment is an inherently bad idea but I think it should be for all presently disadvantaged citizens of whatever race, which would, due to the current situation, naturally favour blacks anyway and could take the form of educational bursaries, internships etc.

who are the presently disadvantaged citizens???

 

[RogueTr00per]

Originally Posted by ryan411
Anyone entering tertiary education or looking for that first job now is going to be bombarded by government policies about how the blacker you are the better. If you aren't an 'African' male or female, then chances are u will face legislated discrimination.

If you are an 'African' male or female, chances are you, your parents, their parents have been discriminated or still facing discrimination.

I'm not disputing this. That is why I emphasized legislated discrimination. I speak under correction but I think we were discussing the danger of AA policies perpetuating the creation of resentment amongst different 'races'.

Actually, I prefer the term ethnic groups. Technically the entire human population is one race

 

[Bageloo]

Here's an interesting question: If you come from a wealthy black family do you need or deserve the same helping hand that someone from a poor family (white or black) gets?

[1] Assuming I had access to decent tertiary education

I think that's a very interesting question you raised. I also feel that is the major flaw with AA impelmentation. It would be fairer if the background was considered over and above race. Rich black kids benefit more than their poor counterparts. Naturally, employers prefer blacks that can speak with that model C english accent. I have a friend who works as a recruitment agent. He told me that he once had a brilliant candidate from Limpopo turned down because of a heavy accent.

No black kid schooling in the township can master the "twang". Only kids that attend schools in the suburbs and private schools are able to talk like that. Those are kids from wealthy black families.