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Question of the Day: Have you ever ordered a product online and received a fake knock-off?
choosing not to vote
- Thread starter Sherbang
- Start date
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
a non-vote, is a vote for the ruling party... it's you saying, "let them remain in power".
You need to choose the party that is closest... nobody is 100% happy with any party.
Democracy is not only about choosing the party that will make things happen... it is also about preventing other parties from doing things.
You need to choose the party that is closest... nobody is 100% happy with any party.
Democracy is not only about choosing the party that will make things happen... it is also about preventing other parties from doing things.
TonyHawk
Expert Member
Would be nice if all the parties can join forces for a true multi party government...
... then they can show the ANC how to run a country right... and not right into the ground
... then they can show the ANC how to run a country right... and not right into the ground
Well I put forward all your posts to him but he is not convinced. I think he's just being stubborn though cause he doesn't like being wrong.
There are 2 big problems with your 'proof' that not voting favours the ANC more than any other party:
a) You've made up the numbers. Since we don't know how many people will vote for which party, you've made up numbers to support your proof.
b) You're assuming that all the people that don't vote would have voted for an opposition party. If people who would normally vote ANC choose not to vote at all I don't see how that 'favours' the ANC more than any other party?
There are 2 big problems with your 'proof' that not voting favours the ANC more than any other party:
a) You've made up the numbers. Since we don't know how many people will vote for which party, you've made up numbers to support your proof.
b) You're assuming that all the people that don't vote would have voted for an opposition party. If people who would normally vote ANC choose not to vote at all I don't see how that 'favours' the ANC more than any other party?
Hey some people are prepared to die in order to "be right"
There are no problems in my scenario modelling:
a) I used something called "scenario modeling". Yes, that means i "made up" the numbers, but even though i "made up" the numbers for the purposes of scenario modelling, the point is still proven in the gain shown by the ANC under the scenario/any such scenario where they hold the majority vote. Remember, we're not looking at the actual numbers here, we are looking to prove that the ANC is the biggest benefactor when opposition voters don't vote. By how much they gain or lose is not relevent for these purposes, we are simply looking to prove that the ANC gains most when opposition voters don't vote. It doesn't matter what the numbers are, we are not looking at the 'actual' numbers, we are looking at proportions and looking for a proof that the ANC gains most. It's higher grade stuff, joelus, if you still don't understand then ask someone with a maths degree to try explain it to you.
b) If someone would normally vote ANC and they do not vote, then that is detrimental to the ANC. If someone normally votes opposition and they do not vote, that is most beneficial to the ANC.
Your inability to understand and apply maths is your handicap here joelus. You are welcome to find anyone with a maths degree to challenge me on my proof. Your objections do not hold any water.
um... no dappled, I understand maths just fine.
Your inability to understand that your proof must actually prove your initial statement is your handicap.
You also need to understand that "scenario modelling" is exactly what it says. It doesn't prove anything except within your scenario. Since the world may not fit your scenario it proves nothing.
You wrote in big black capital letters that you were providing proof "that not voting favours the ANC more than any other party" and point b shows your proof is wrong. If you had said that you were providing proof "that not voting, rather than voting for an opposition party, favours the ANC", then your proof would have been correct, but as it stands your proof doesn't support the statement you made in big bold black letters.
As it stands, most people who have stated they will not vote are people who would normally vote ANC and are disgruntled. This includes people like Tutu and the Poor People's Alliance, so the ANC is actually most likely to be harmed by people not voting.
subculture
Banned
Who and how many is most people? And of these 'most people' why are these the people who would normally vote ANC? How do you conclude that?
Currently I prefer the mathematical version, however I have the entire week to entertain the idea of "most people"
Am I "most people"? Who is "most people"? Or as a green bank would have said: "who are those people?"
Who and how many is most people? And of these 'most people' why are these the people who would normally vote ANC? How do you conclude that?
Currently I prefer the mathematical version, however I have the entire week to entertain the idea of "most people"
Am I "most people"? Who is "most people"? Or as a green bank would have said: "who are those people?"
um... I actually said most people who have stated they will not vote, not just most people. I said most, but actually ALL the people I've heard of who have stated they will not vote are disgruntled ANC supporters. Desmond Tutu and the Poor People's Alliance come to mind.
If you can point out anyone who has stated they will not vote, who is known to be a supporter of a party other than the ANC, then I'll reconsider...
Kloofvreter
Honorary Master
Well, it is a friend who is not going to vote, but he and I (and everyone else) have the same rights. So while I will most likely be voting for cope, though I'm still not sure, I still have the right to not vote just like he does!
I agree with this. If you don't want to vote, that's your choice.
Kloofvreter
Honorary Master
Most definitely is your choice.
Just don't complain about the party that wins...
As if complaining will make a difference whether you voted or not.
I pay tax, and expect service from whoever is in charge.QFT.
Citizen + Tax payer = right to complain about government action and policies, regardless of exercise of franchise.
That said, I will say that it's vitally important to participate if you're a registered voter, because then the "your non-vote effectively counting as a vote for the incumbent" comments that have been made are very much true.
The exception as I understand it is if you are not a registered voter, or you elect to de-register for whatever reason.
I do however think that there are categories of citizens who should not be entitled to exercise their right to franchise. Convicted criminals (at least during their sentance, perhaps never again, depending on the crime) for one, and also military personnel, given that their loyalty must be to the government of the day. Voting for one party, while serving the government of another strikes me as being a conflict of interest and loyalties.
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
I think you should get multiple votes based on your life experience and education.
Finishing High school gets you an extra vote
Finishing University gets you another extra vote.
Working the same job for ten years gets you an extra vote.
Being married for 50 years gets you an extra vote.
Running your own business for ten years gets you an extra vote.
Paying your taxes for ten years gets you an extra vote.
This system will favour those who have worked hard to make this country work.
Finishing High school gets you an extra vote
Finishing University gets you another extra vote.
Working the same job for ten years gets you an extra vote.
Being married for 50 years gets you an extra vote.
Running your own business for ten years gets you an extra vote.
Paying your taxes for ten years gets you an extra vote.
This system will favour those who have worked hard to make this country work.
.subculture
Banned
Basically you are saying everyone who chooses not to vote are ANC members?
I think maybe you are reffering to one single key word you have failed to realise and that is ratio.
The ratio of non-voters will naturally be ANC voters as they are the majority party. You stating obvious things here if that is what you are saying, because by saying all non-voters are disgruntled ANC members is somewhat naive.
In the same respect a non vote is agreeing with current circumstance and current government which is a vote for the majority party even if under the poor guise of no party interests me.
However I am pleased to see you may reconsider reality.
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TonyHawk
Expert Member
/sigh
joelus, believe whatever you want to believe, since you're going to anyway and no amount of cold hard mathematics nor argument is going to change your mind
I totally agree with you dappled, and your maths is 100% correct
There is nothing you can say that will change joelus' mind...
even if it's red or blue we're trying to establish.. he'll say it's "black" or "white"... makes you think
TonyHawk
Expert Member
I almost agree with you...lol - but I again will be robbed by the fact that I might refuse the idea of getting married
I suggest rather that the total elections you participate in... are the quantity of votes you get... (your reward for participating)
... seeing this is a long process... those who qualify for extra votes... will be older... and "generally" wiser
...but then again life throws strange curves... it might backfire... lol