Cricket: Test Cricket

depending on his form in the ODI's mack should be dropped for the return leg and gibbs should play in his place....thats my 2 cents worth :)
 
chiskop said:
Um, one or two mistakes there. Also added runs scored which, no matter what Hayden says, is actually the point of cricket.
(BF Runs SR)
Ponting 409 285 69.68
McK 408 121 29.65
Smiff 496 326 65.72
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ah ja i know that, we all know McK scored way less runs but didnt think he would've faced as many balls as he did hence it being an interesting stat and not an obvious one ;)
 
javs said:
depending on his form in the ODI's mack should be dropped for the return leg and gibbs should play in his place....thats my 2 cents worth :)
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Gibbs hasn't done a thing to deserve a test place. Odi's aren't the same as tests. We either bring prince back in and let ab open or move everyone up one spot or look at the openers in domestic cricket.

sandmanm34 said:
Mkaya, Dale, Morne, Mark, Paul, all average at least 41? Really?
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Obviously talking about the batsmen not the bowlers.
 
OzzieCapie said:
Either way, cliques or not, there were clear racial divisions and Ntini himself was trying to become accepted amidst a lot of animosity.
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That the same Ntini accused of rape? Racial division is as much a part of South African culture as pap and wors, there's no denying it but that is the heritage of Apartheid. Slowly but surely every generation going forward will become more and more colour blind. Hansies team were always on a hiding to nothing trying to overcome prejudices ingrained into them as young white South Africans. It's a malaise effecting all of us. I'm not excusing it or justifying it, merely explaining it.
And btw, Gibbs wasn't there either...I said only 'non-whites' were;)
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Gibbs is coloured:) Neither white nor black (brown), no wonder the kid needs rehabilitation:p

As for Hansie, we can agree to disagree, I know he is still highly revered amongst south africans- why I don't know-
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This is why...

Under Cronje's captaincy South Africa won 27 Tests and lost 11, completing series victories against every team except Australia. He captained them in a record number of Tests and to a record number of victories. He captained the One-Day International team to 99 wins out of 138 matches with one tied match and three no results. Again he holds the South African record for matches captained in and matches won as captain. His 99 wins as captain makes him the third most successful captain worldwide in terms of matches won, behind Ricky Ponting and Allan Border, and in terms of percentage of wins (73.70), behind Ponting and Clive Lloyd. Between September 1993 and March 2000 he played in 162 consecutive ODIs, a South African record.
he played for draws first and then wins in an era where Steve Waugh lifted test run rates to 4 an over in order to score enough to win, they were happy to settle for< 3 and <300.
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Waugh's 4 runs to the over in test cricket was the exception to the rule. No side in world cricket could compete with that. It's hardly 'settling' scoring at 3 an over.
He took wins when they came , rather than made them.
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Not true, see above...

In the current team, who would you drop as an allrounder assuming that his batting alone was under par? Kallis? Everyone in the current team hold their spots first an foremost as batsmen or bowlers (except McKenzie atm), and Kallis is an amazing bonus.
Even Symonds (as an all rounder) bats at over 40, and if he cannot bowl they drop him. The benchmark has moved.
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Agreed but bear in mind the South African team of the early 90's after just re-entering international cricket were far less prepared for the international stage compared to this team in the 21st century. Hansie batting at 4 or 5 has an average on par or better then the likes of his fellow team mates including Jonty Rhodes, Shaun Pollock, Adrian Kuiper so his batting is far from under par. He was an aggressive batsman plying his trade at a time when Shane Warne, Glenn McGrath, Courtney Walsh, Anil Kumble and Muralitharan were at the top of their game. To top it all he was an astute captain, fantastic fielder and a very necessary bowling change in a line up that almost always consisted of out and out fast bowlers only..
I don't believe we can assume or consider him playing in todays team but the question poised was who is the better captain, Smith or Cronje and for now I believe Cronje would be the more complete package but Smith is still busy building his career/legend.

As for McKenzie, I don't know about his past performances, but he performed poorly here mainly because his very flawed technique was exposed in the Aus conditions and bowling.
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Agreed, he has been in very good form since returning to open for SA. He chose the Australian tour to début some bad form, fortunately bad form is temporary, class is not, he will be back. They produce top quality cricketers at King Edwards you know?!!!:)
Think I will go for a cycle now in my SA shirt again , as I did last week:)
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So you a former saffer then? Enjoy it...
 
killadoob said:
Yes chis but singling him out is not right, he was not the only one involved but he took most of the stick, while what he did was wrong on so many levels, pointing him out as the only one is not on in my opinion.
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But the devil made him do it :rolleyes:
 
Hansie's 'crimes' have already been discussed on this and many other forums in great depth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hansie_Cronje#Match_fixing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shane_Warne#Bookmakers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Waugh#Bribery_scandal_re-emerges

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sachin_Tendulkar#Controversy_over_Ferrari_customs_waiver

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saleem_Malik#Match_Fixing

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Azharuddin#Match_fixing_scandal

The point I'm eluding to hear is that the punishment meated out to Cronje in view of the precedent set in other cases was excessive in the extreme bearing in mind that not a single condition or criteria regarding performance in an ODI or test match for which he was bribed actually materialized. He sold information pertaining to team selections and pitch conditions for fcks sakes, hardly a crime worthy of a life long ban..

Consider Shane Warnes appalling behaviour both on and off the field of play and he is still one of Australia's most revered sporting personalities... He's an absolute disgrace not only to the game of cricket but as a role model and generally with regards to how men should behave. That he is a cricketing genius, possibly the greatest to ever have walked, is why despite his atrocious behaviour he continues to garnish respect and support but Hansie was 10 x the man Warne is yet for his 'crimes' he gets persecuted, banished, alienated and ultimately killed...
 
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sandmanm34 said:
Consider Shane Warnes appalling behaviour both on and off the field of play and he is still one of Australia's most revered sporting personalities... He's an absolute disgrace not only to the game of cricket but as a role model and generally with regards to how men should behave. That he is a cricketing genius, possibly the greatest to ever have walked, is why despite his atrocious behaviour he continues to garnish respect and support but Hansie was 10 x the man Warne is yet for his 'crimes' he gets persecuted, banished, alienated and ultimately killed...
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+1 :)
 
sandmanm34,

You got me on the Hansie stats, but I still felt his way of playing was a boring game to watch. Look the guy transgressed. Either he squealed on the co-conspirators or he is damned as the big fish...he chose what to say.
Didn't know he was "killed' though.

Couple other things.
Ntini was acquitted on appeal...not the first acquittal of date rape, so innocent until proven guilty.
Gibbs...yep I know he is "coloured" ,,,,not that he would let on , hence my 'emoticonned' comment. His dad was a top schools sprinter (WP champ) in my BIL's era (competed against).... was very much a self proclaimed 'ladies man' and 'look how good I am' type.
Die appel val nie ver(sp) van die boom.

Got to go for my rehab now.

cheers
 
sandmanm34 said:
That the same Ntini accused of rape?
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Not sure what the relevance of that is. Ntini was not guilty.
Gibbs is coloured:) Neither white nor black (brown), no wonder the kid needs rehabilitation:p
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Gibbs went to Bishops in Cape Town. I think there's only ever been two occasions when that guy has been called coloured: on his pre-94 ID book, and in compiling selection quotas. :rolleyes:

This is why...

Under Cronje's captaincy South Africa won 27 Tests and lost 11, completing series victories against every team except Australia. He captained them in a record number of Tests and to a record number of victories.
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Smith has beaten every single one of those marks: he has captained the team in 67 tests, winning 33, losing 19 and drawing 15.

He has won series against every test nation, now including Australia.

I haven't looked to compare Smith's ODI results - and maybe Cronje has the edge there - I'm not bothered. I'll take a test series victory in Australia over anything ODI (except maybe the WC, and Smith and Cronje have proved to be equally capable of choking there, Pollock too for that matter.)

I don't believe we can assume or consider him playing in todays team but the question poised was who is the better captain, Smith or Cronje and for now I believe Cronje would be the more complete package but Smith is still busy building his career/legend.
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Smith is a better captain, a better player and a better person.

In terms of McKenzie; He scored 1073 runs in 2008 at an average of 53. (That includes Perth and Melbourne). He's having a bad run atm, but it's not Haydenesque yet. I wouldn't drop him just yet, though we're in the great position of having other options.:)
 
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In terms of world cup records Smith isn't that far off cronje. He also made the semi's,also lost to aus. Cronje had much better odi teams in his era with the great allrounders he had.
 
Not sure what the relevance of that is. Ntini was not guilty.
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Originally Posted by OzzieCapie View Post
Either way, cliques or not, there were clear racial divisions and Ntini himself was trying to become accepted amidst a lot of animosity.
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I'm offering an explanation for some of the animosity Ntini was feeling from his teams mates. Ozzie believes it was a racial division, I believe it was a combination of things...
 
sandmanm34 said:
I'm offering an explanation for some of the animosity Ntini was feeling from his teams mates. Ozzie believes it was a racial division, I believe it was a combination of things...
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That was more than a year prior to the party OC saw. It is at best a tenuous explanation, but doesn't explain where any of the other non-white players were.
 
chiskop said:
Smith has beaten every single one of those marks: he has captained the team in 67 tests, winning 33, losing 19 and drawing 15.
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Cronje captained SA in 53 tests winning 27 and losing 11 so has a higher percentage of wins and a lower percentage of loses...
Perhaps you can find stats for ODI but I doubt Cronjes 71.7% win rate has been bettered by Smith...
 
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chiskop said:
That was more than a year prior to the party OC saw. It is at best a tenuous explanation, but doesn't explain where any of the other non-white players were.
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They weren't there cause they a bunch of racist bigots as I already mentioned in an earlier post. I blame their upbringing for that...

Ntini and the alleged rape incident will forever be a tarnish on his reputation, convicted or not.
 
sandmanm34 said:
Ntini and the alleged rape incident will forever be a tarnish on his reputation, convicted or not.
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You're very selective on what you consider to be a tarnish on someone's reputation: Ntini not guilty = tarnish, Cronje guilty = no tarnish.

Ho hum.
 
chiskop said:
You're very selective on what you consider to be a tarnish on someone's reputation: Ntini not guilty = tarnish, Cronje guilty = no tarnish.

Ho hum.
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Never said Cronje's reputation was not tarnished, I said his punishment based on his 'crime' and the precedents set in other cases was disproportionate. Cronje was banished from the game and society so his reputation was forever tarnished until his premature death...
 
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