[May 2013..Dec 2013] The Gauteng E-tolling Thread

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IzZzy said:
It was me. It's only the NCA that doesn't apply to the levying of tolls.
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I don't think the CPA will apply either in respect of non-tagged vehicles as you aren't a "consumer"

The reality though is that the NCA being excluded shouldn't come as a surprise and SANRAL won't be able to deal with tagged vehicles if it did
 
blunomore said:
I don't follow. The CPA will be tested in court? It's the e-tolls that must be tested in court!
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I meant the CPA is useless in everyday life. When you use it in court against something like eTolls it will have more teeth if u have a decent laywer
 
rakabos3 said:
I meant the CPA is useless in everyday life. When you use it in court against something like eTolls it will have more teeth if u have a decent laywer
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There was a law firm that offered their services free of charge for the first e-toll case. No idea if they are any good, though.
 
I've just had a quick skwizz at the industries exempted from the CPA - and its Pension Funds, Collective Investment Schemes, Banks and Security Industry. Haven't found anything related to SANRAL.
 
IzZzy said:
I've just had a quick skwizz at the industries exempted from the CPA - and its Pension Funds, Collective Investment Schemes, Banks and Security Industry. Haven't found anything related to SANRAL.
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SARS, SAPS and municipal traffic departments aren't exempted either but traffic fines etc ... don't fall within the CPA.

E-tag users would be under the CPA because they have a relationship but untagged vehicles?
 
Paul Hjul said:
E-tag users would be under the CPA because they have a relationship but untagged vehicles?
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Excuse my ignorance, but why does that matter ?

If I buy a newspaper from the local garage shop I don't have any relationship with the shop but I am covered by the CPA.
 
Jola said:
Excuse my ignorance, but why does that matter ?

If I buy a newspaper from the local garage shop I don't have any relationship with the shop but I am covered by the CPA.
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you have a contractual relationship of sale
 
Paul Hjul said:
SARS, SAPS and municipal traffic departments aren't exempted either but traffic fines etc ... don't fall within the CPA.

E-tag users would be under the CPA because they have a relationship but untagged vehicles?
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Jola said:
Excuse my ignorance, but why does that matter ?

If I buy a newspaper from the local garage shop I don't have any relationship with the shop but I am covered by the CPA.
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Paul Hjul said:
you have a contractual relationship of sale
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Check the CPA's definition of consumer to see if it covers the kind of relationship untagged users would have with SANRAL:

‘‘consumer’’, in respect of any particular goods or services, means—
(a) a person to whom those particular goods or services are marketed in the
ordinary course of the supplier’s business;
(b) a person who has entered into a transaction with a supplier in the ordinary
course of the supplier’s business, unless the transaction is exempt from the
application of this Act by section 5(2) or in terms of section 5(3);
(c) if the context so requires or permits, a user of those particular goods or a
recipient or beneficiary of those particular services, irrespective of whether
that user, recipient or beneficiary was a party to a transaction concerning the
supply of those particular goods or services; and
(d) a franchisee in terms of a franchise agreement, to the extent applicable in
terms of section 5(6)(b) to (e);
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blunomore said:
Check the CPA's definition of consumer to see if it covers SANRAL.
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for etags I am confident that SANRAL is under the CPA
but the definition of consumer does not cover a situation where the person is being taxed by way of a toll enforced by the facis of the State doesn't in my mind fall into:
"consumer"

in respect of any particular goods or services, means-

a)a person to whom those particular goods or services are marketed in the ordinary course of the supplier's business;

b)a person who has entered into a transaction with a supplier in the ordinary course of the supplier's business, unless the transaction is exempt from the application of this Act by section 5(2) or in terms of section 5(3);

c)if the context so requires or permits, a user of those particular goods or a recipient or beneficiary of those particular services, irrespective of whether that user, recipient or beneficiary was a party to a transaction concerning the supply of those particular goods or services; and

d)a franchisee in terms of a franchise agreement, to the extent applicable in terms of section 5(6)(b) to (e);
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The provisions of (c) and SANRAL literature suggesting it is providing a service to the State for the benefit of the public may apply but I would regard same as a long shot. Certainly one worth raising in court, but sufficiently problematic to be skeptical that the CPA has application for untagged vehicles - of course it may be argued that a person who has a tag on one vehicle but not another is a customer entirely.
 
Paul Hjul said:
for etags I am confident that SANRAL is under the CPA
but the definition of consumer does not cover a situation where the person is being taxed by way of a toll enforced by the facis of the State doesn't in my mind fall into:

The provisions of (c) and SANRAL literature suggesting it is providing a service to the State for the benefit of the public may apply but I would regard same as a long shot. Certainly one worth raising in court, but sufficiently problematic to be skeptical that the CPA has application for untagged vehicles - of course it may be argued that a person who has a tag on one vehicle but not another is a customer entirely.
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Are they not in fact providing a service to the public ?
 
nope in fact (as opposed to what they claim) they are taking money from the public for infringing on a long standing right of way but yes it is exactly the argument that I believe needs to be made, but it isn't one I'd hang my hat on.

I haven't checked for a long time on the transport amendment laws but there was a section 58A which is very interesting and perverse in terms of reversing the onus and if I were SANRAL I'd argue that the legislatures intention and the constitutional imperative on SANRAL is to collect revenue by civil or criminal measures rather than a service charge and that individuals who contract to become customers are liable to the introduction of a taxed revenue collection paradigm. The upshot of same argument is that the action is administrative action and PAJA is a bitch ...
- I haven't looked at it properly but there may well be a case that prior to determining that a person in fact owes toll fees on an untagged vehicle that SANRAL will have to give notice and a period to receive representations, this would be before issuing the bill because it is a necessary assessment which is an administrative decision. There is a trove of binding precedent on the municipal exercise of terminating services (particularly electricity) or directing a tenant to pay rent to the municipality on the basis of non-payment of services or rates. The Joseph line of 14 days notice would be a nuisance for SANRAL.
 
Paul Hjul said:
I don't think the CPA will apply either in respect of non-tagged vehicles as you aren't a "consumer"
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You are a consumer if you use the toll roads.
e-toll's are not traffic fines and it can't be a road tax either else SANRAL would be charging VAT on top of a tax which would be illegal IMO.
 
MagicDude4Eva said:
No they don't have to modify the system. Waze is a community project and allows users to submit corrections. I corrected street-names, routing (traffic circles in my area) and others and those will go live within a few weeks. The point I am trying to make is that only Waze users who travel on highways frequently will be able to mark sections of highway as toll-roads. Those changes will then go through quite quickly.
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It takes on average 3 days for changes to be published. As long as only highway sections with gantries are marked as Toll Road it will work brilliantly. For instance Waze should route you down the N1 between William Nicol and Malibongwe but avoid Malibongwe to Beyers Naude as its got a gantry on it.
 
Hey guys,

I am busy putting together a proper information pack for motorists. It will include history around the project, who benefits, the unsustainable finances involved, why the fuel levy is better, how to delay paying e-tolls, why we should boycott the system, and various other titbits.

What I need from you guys is the following:

I want the most inflammatory statements government and Sanral have made. Threats against citizens, stupid remarks, blatant lies etc. That sort of thing. I need quotes.
A concise breakdown of the legal route to follow to delay payment
Anything else you think is absolutely necessary that people around South Africa need to hear

Please can you start posting the stuff in here ASAP. I want to finish this over the weekend...
 
The statement said: "Avis will charge the standard e-toll tariff per e-toll gantry, to a monthly maximum value of R450 as published in the Government Gazette. The standard tariff, which is higher than the tariff paid by registered e-tag users, is being charged to enable Avis to recover the costs of implementing systems and resources to manage e-toll compliance."
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Bullschitt.

So they're deliberately going to overcharge clients to pay for their system changes, which were probably just a one off expense anyway?

And once a tag hits R450 every month the rest of the month's "charges" are pure profit. IMHO this is tantamount to fraud as in the case of a tag that's reached it's cap, they will be charging clients for an expense that they're not actually incurring on behalf of the client, i.e. they're pulling it out of fresh air and pretending that usage was charged.
 
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