'Nationalise Motsepe's wealth'

Yes, I agree these idiots have no insight into the real problem, or its solution, but that does not make the initial premise that there is a problem and it should be addressed go away. Unfortunately I have no real answers, only a gut feeling that sticking our (used collectively for all SA society) heads in the sand on this general perception of "wrong" will turn out to be a bad idea.

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It is also easy to see the ridiculous people who get attention and forget that the issues they speak about are not necessarily ridiculous. The fact that the extremists have the loudest voice is a worrying trend all on its own.
 
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I don't want to stir an argument, but I also try to remember that we all view the world from some premise, some understanding of what constitutes "right". The fact that we, who have had our world view influenced mostly by calvinist and capitalist ideals, laugh at the premise from which (for the lack of a better word) communists view the world does not make our view any more legitimate than theirs. Just as we see "Why should such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as a senseless, childish question, they view "Why shouldn't such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as an absurd question. I don't think there is a "right" view and a "wrong" view, but as long as people shout at each other without realising that the premise on which they argue is fundamentally different there will be scoffing and anger, but very few solutions.

I'm very sorry to have to leave a very interesting argument, but it's time to go do some real work ;)
 
EvilDarkElf said:
I don't want to stir an argument, but I also try to remember that we all view the world from some premise, some understanding of what constitutes "right". The fact that we, who have had our world view influenced mostly by calvinist and capitalist ideals, laugh at the premise from which (for the lack of a better word) communists view the world does not make our view any more legitimate than theirs. Just as we see "Why should such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as a senseless, childish question, they view "Why shouldn't such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as an absurd question. I don't think there is a "right" view and a "wrong" view, but as long as people shout at each other without realising that the premise on which they argue is fundamentally different there will be scoffing and anger, but very few solutions.

I'm very sorry to have to leave a very interesting argument, but it's time to go do some real work ;)
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That may be true but capitalism is probably the only natural system, the only system that doesn't require force in its implementation. At its core its based on the free trade of goods and services, socialism/communism in its various forms requires the coercion of producers to work for the benefit of the non-productive.
 
Syndyre said:
That may be true but capitalism is probably the only natural system, the only system that doesn't require force in its implementation. At its core its based on the free trade of goods and services, socialism/communism in its various forms requires the coercion of producers to work for the benefit of the non-productive.
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And I would add communism/socialism: has been proven not to work, especially in the face of corruption. JZ and Schabir Shaik anyone?
 
SuperAntMD said:
And I would add communism/socialism: has been proven not to work, especially in the face of corruption. JZ and Schabir Shaik anyone?
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There's that minor detail too. ;) You'll always get those who argue that it what was implemented wasn't true communism etc. but if that's the case then maybe true communism isn't practical in the real world. Even if it was I still wouldn't agree with it as a system.
 
Go Left wing!!! Whoo! Add a pinch of stupidity!

Even Marx is rolling in his grave
 
"This obscene and massive wealth is being reported by the Sunday Times in the midst of the revelations that South Africa has apparently taken over Brazil as the most unequal country in the world ever," said spokesperson Castro Ngobese.
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A fallacy that this inequality is necessarily a bad sign. As the rich list grows more taxes will be collected and so more funds will be available for social programmes to lift the poor. Moreover, if the rich re-invest rather than just lining their own pockets, jobs will be created, also lifting the down-trodden. The gap should then eventually find it's natural level.

As for SA now ranking the highest or even behind Brazil as previously, it should not be a surprise, given how colonial rule persisted for longer here than anywhere else. A shining example of how an elitist approach is preferable to the alternative of everyone being held to ransom by the weakest. SA would then have been like the other African countries - greater equality but poorer for it.
 
LOL!

When I first saw the article I thought this must be straight from Hayibo.

Freedom Charter one of the worst ideas the ANC "struggle" heroes ever had.
 
DigitalSoldier said:
LOL!

When I first saw the article I thought this must be straight from Hayibo.

Freedom Charter one of the worst ideas the ANC "struggle" heroes ever had.
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Me too! Frightening that its on news24.com.

Even more frightening for our Minister of Urban Settlement.
 
Kosmik said:
I have a problem with all of this. If the persons wealth was gained by exploitation and criminal means, then by all means prove it in a court of law and take it away. If a person worked hard for their money, seized opportunities as they presented themselves and effectively made their wealth or the origin of their inherited wealth is clean, then leave them the f*** alone.

The world is not equal. People are NOT equal. Some are smarter than others and can do more needed trades than others and are in high demand. This is life and business. A gifted surgeon gets paid well for what he does because he is one of the few that can do what he can do. He is compensated for his talents.

On the other hand, the exploitation Mofo's should get whats coming to them. I won't mention a certain neighbor.
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Ah, but is it socialism?
 
EvilDarkElf said:
I don't want to stir an argument, but I also try to remember that we all view the world from some premise, some understanding of what constitutes "right". The fact that we, who have had our world view influenced mostly by calvinist and capitalist ideals, laugh at the premise from which (for the lack of a better word) communists view the world does not make our view any more legitimate than theirs. Just as we see "Why should such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as a senseless, childish question, they view "Why shouldn't such massive wealth be in the hands of private individuals?" as an absurd question. I don't think there is a "right" view and a "wrong" view, but as long as people shout at each other without realising that the premise on which they argue is fundamentally different there will be scoffing and anger, but very few solutions.

I'm very sorry to have to leave a very interesting argument, but it's time to go do some real work ;)
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Nice one Evil...Dark...Elf... yeah...

Communism might have failed, but capitalism (and 'democracy') isn't working either... sure, it has been more successful than communism (in being more efficient) but we still got a world where the majority of people are poor (relative to the rich) (some stats say 4 billion ppl live on $2 or less a day). Being rich gives you access to better education, better health care, better access to the law, etc. Which means you have a better position in a democracy... capitalism seems to go against the principles of democracy as everyone's supposed to be equal in the eyes of the law (for example), but those who can afford the better lawyers have a better chance of winning a case than those who can't.

Not that I'm saying Communism is a good idea either... I think it's time to review the system we have, come up with one that works better. And I think either we do sooner (those of us that are in power now, the so-called nobility that has access to the first world economy, internet etc.) or run the risk that it'll be forced upon all of us by the majority... It doesn't matter how we got to where we are (by working hard, being the most intelligent, inheritance etc.), it does matter that we left everyone else behind when we got here...
 
While you all are looking for a better system, hows about we stay with the one we have now. There's a knocking noise in the engine sure, but it is currently getting us around. You want us to throw it away and take a new system that we know does not work. Where is the sense in that?

A thought on the rich affording better lawyers, Nothing in the actual law changes, a cheap lawyer has access to the same laws as the rich man lawyer.

Further, a rich man on trial for something that he did not do, gets off because the law says so. The same for a poor man, at least that is the way the law is supposed to work. I don't see how being rich and innocent and poor and innocent are different. Or are all rich folk who are hauled into court guilty of something and should be punished.

Lastly, these yapping dogs in the commie club, they would not be shouting as loud if their name was sexwhale.
 
Kosmik said:
I have a problem with all of this. If the persons wealth was gained by exploitation and criminal means, then by all means prove it in a court of law and take it away. If a person worked hard for their money, seized opportunities as they presented themselves and effectively made their wealth or the origin of their inherited wealth is clean, then leave them the f*** alone.

The world is not equal. People are NOT equal. Some are smarter than others and can do more needed trades than others and are in high demand. This is life and business. A gifted surgeon gets paid well for what he does because he is one of the few that can do what he can do. He is compensated for his talents.

On the other hand, the exploitation Mofo's should get whats coming to them. I won't mention a certain neighbor.
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+1

Done any different would remove all incentives to excel.
 
Balstrome said:
Further, a rich man on trial for something that he did not do, gets off because the law says so. The same for a poor man, at least that is the way the law is supposed to work. I don't see how being rich and innocent and poor and innocent are different. Or are all rich folk who are hauled into court guilty of something and should be punished.
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Its about effort.. you have free lawyers with backlogs handling your case you likely get a plea bargain(if the evidence present makes u look guilty beyond a doubt even though you innocent) and if found guilty spend more time paying for something you didn't do than some who can afford a lawyer(or team) to deal exclusively with your case(even getting other investigators), with tons of experience and even if you found guilty, there will be an appeal procedure pushed asap.

TIsA.. do you really need to ask this law question in a Telecoms forum :p :erm: :p Telkom vs Icasa/other firms. I rest my case. Even when they lose they tie it up in endless litigation. The only exception is when Gov steps in either politically or administratively and changes the playing field, something thats not exactly democratic.. but then it happens in just about every democratic country.
 
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Gambit317z said:
Not that I'm saying Communism is a good idea either... I think it's time to review the system we have, come up with one that works better. And I think either we do sooner (those of us that are in power now, the so-called nobility that has access to the first world economy, internet etc.) or run the risk that it'll be forced upon all of us by the majority... It doesn't matter how we got to where we are (by working hard, being the most intelligent, inheritance etc.), it does matter that we left everyone else behind when we got here...
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Judging by the common attitude of a LOT of people today, any method that does not contain capitalism will fail. Look at America and England and their welfare systems, it has gotten so bad that people actually ASPIRE to go on welfare! If the incentives, as someone mentioned previously, which is more personal wealth, better living conditions and better life style are removed, society will degrade into people that sit around all day and just say feedme.

I don't disagree that we need to uplift the poor, but dragging everyone down to their level is not upliftment, it's destruction.
 
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Oh good god that is naive balstrome. I guess you believe Zuma is innocent and never committed any crime and that Sheik is currently dying of some extended terminal disease?

The law has loopholes that can only be found by massive law firms that can grind through paperwork like a fire. The small idiot state defense lawyer in court doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground and would defend an innocent man to death row.
 
Watching Morning Live this morning, and there's Sexwale on TV, going on about tearing down the bad RDP houses, tracing the corruption and nepotism that lead to it and replacing them with decent homes. Very nice, Tokyo, give em hell.

Talk about biting the hand that feeds, NUMSA :mad:
 
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