killadoob
Honorary Master
If everybody did that, would there be a car to copy? Think hard about this
.Hope it never gets to that point though, i enjoy all my nzb's way too much
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Question of the Day: How do you normally pay for purchases in stores?
Online piracy is driven by greed
- Thread starter jes
- Start date
If everybody did that, would there be a car to copy? Think hard about this
.Hope it never gets to that point though, i enjoy all my nzb's way too much
Well if we are debating morality.... and not meanings of words then thats easier. Who is more important to you? South Africa or the USA? If the answer is SA... then every time you pirate you help SA and its trade deficit
And if I pirate a movie I'm giving more money to SA service providers
.. In the end, everyone wins, whether you pirate or not eh It's just the distribution of the cash that determines who you love more 
I write music, I"m not doing it for money (yet) but sure, I can understand if music was my main source of income and people were pirating my music instead of paying for it how I might feel.
What I would like to see is BANDS and ARTISTS being the ones suing people and not the labels.
The whole way a lot of people view copyright, sharing ethics and the like is out dated, humans by nature want to share things. There was another study done on the altruistic nature of the people who are doing the uploading and sharing, a very good read but I can't find the specific link now.
Arthur
Honorary Master
The issue is a basic one, and the principles are actually simple, and can be answered by considering this question:
What is the distinguishing feature of slavery?
It all comes down to who owns you and the product of your labours. It matter not whether you consider physical or mental labour - the identical principle applies.
Either you own your body and the fruits of your labours, or you don't. Once you concede the principle that Society or the State or the Community or Anyone Else has a right to your body or the fruits of your mental and physical labour, you have already accepted that you can be expropriated for the sake of the collective. You destroy the very basis of private property, turning it from a right arising from human nature to a concession by the collective, and concessions are always tenuously held. Virtually every war and horror perpetrated by man thoughout all of history is ultimately a violation of the basic principle that people have a right their personal integrity and the fruits of their labour. By assailing that principle you attack humanity at its core and make yourself complicit in these same crimes against human liberty. You have in fact rationalised slavery. Barbarism ensues.
Now if I claim a right to my body and the fruits of my labours, I must mutatis mutandis grant that same right to others, and that includes musicians, software authors, writers, film makers, &c, &c, &c. A musician does not create a CD or a tape - in the first place it is a composition (an intellectual act, an act of the mind or the soul), and in the second place it might include a performance. But they all belong to him to sell and trade as he wishes. And that right MUST be respected. If it is not, you expropriate him, and the slide to slavery is just a matter of degree because the principle has already been granted.
Drawing convenient little distinctions between physical and intellectual goods is sophistry, and the Sophists loved to play logic games, which they usually won. But they were wrong about just about everything, because their unspoken assumptions were fallacious.
Now not everyone may see it it or be able to unpack the metaphysics, but the issue is morally charged and of profound import for the institution of private property and thereby our whole civilisation. I also know only too well there's little point in trying to debate this issue. But for the record, I took a personal decision many years ago -- inspired by my love for human liberty and my rejection of slavery -- that I would never knowingly, consciously or intentionally use, copy, or otherwise 'consume' (by watching, listening to, reading, or being entertained by) material produced by a fellow human being who had not expressly granted that permission to me. That is why I do not tolerate stolen movies, photos, software, music, books, or any stolen (or 'misappropriated' or whatever word you care to choose) physical or intellectual property in my household. Period.
Yes, this does mean I miss out on a lot of stuff I can't afford. Like that movie or that mansion, or that song or this steak, or this video or that Veyron. But that's the only tolerable life to life. To take other people's stuff without their permission is to destroy everything, and I don't want to be even a small part of that destruction. More than just people and their livelihoods is at stake, and it's no use pointing at the super-rich to rationalise your theft - it's either a principle or it isn't. For me it is.
What is the distinguishing feature of slavery?
It all comes down to who owns you and the product of your labours. It matter not whether you consider physical or mental labour - the identical principle applies.
Either you own your body and the fruits of your labours, or you don't. Once you concede the principle that Society or the State or the Community or Anyone Else has a right to your body or the fruits of your mental and physical labour, you have already accepted that you can be expropriated for the sake of the collective. You destroy the very basis of private property, turning it from a right arising from human nature to a concession by the collective, and concessions are always tenuously held. Virtually every war and horror perpetrated by man thoughout all of history is ultimately a violation of the basic principle that people have a right their personal integrity and the fruits of their labour. By assailing that principle you attack humanity at its core and make yourself complicit in these same crimes against human liberty. You have in fact rationalised slavery. Barbarism ensues.
Now if I claim a right to my body and the fruits of my labours, I must mutatis mutandis grant that same right to others, and that includes musicians, software authors, writers, film makers, &c, &c, &c. A musician does not create a CD or a tape - in the first place it is a composition (an intellectual act, an act of the mind or the soul), and in the second place it might include a performance. But they all belong to him to sell and trade as he wishes. And that right MUST be respected. If it is not, you expropriate him, and the slide to slavery is just a matter of degree because the principle has already been granted.
Drawing convenient little distinctions between physical and intellectual goods is sophistry, and the Sophists loved to play logic games, which they usually won. But they were wrong about just about everything, because their unspoken assumptions were fallacious.
Now not everyone may see it it or be able to unpack the metaphysics, but the issue is morally charged and of profound import for the institution of private property and thereby our whole civilisation. I also know only too well there's little point in trying to debate this issue. But for the record, I took a personal decision many years ago -- inspired by my love for human liberty and my rejection of slavery -- that I would never knowingly, consciously or intentionally use, copy, or otherwise 'consume' (by watching, listening to, reading, or being entertained by) material produced by a fellow human being who had not expressly granted that permission to me. That is why I do not tolerate stolen movies, photos, software, music, books, or any stolen (or 'misappropriated' or whatever word you care to choose) physical or intellectual property in my household. Period.
Yes, this does mean I miss out on a lot of stuff I can't afford. Like that movie or that mansion, or that song or this steak, or this video or that Veyron. But that's the only tolerable life to life. To take other people's stuff without their permission is to destroy everything, and I don't want to be even a small part of that destruction. More than just people and their livelihoods is at stake, and it's no use pointing at the super-rich to rationalise your theft - it's either a principle or it isn't. For me it is.
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BLIXEMPIE
Honorary Master
I told you so. Fsck, think I should become a scientist?
Archer
Honorary Master
To all you anti piracy nuts, lets think very very hard about the problem...
Corporations charging too much, and trying to force you into DRM schemes so that they can keep charging too much
Now lets look at Google. They couldnt care less about piracy and yet they made truck loads of cash. How is that possible??? Like Android they give it to cell manufacturers for free. FREE!!! AND THEY STILL MAKE MONEY. Fact of the matter is, corporations, especially in music, are stuck in the 20th century while the rest of us are living in the 21st century. They need to have a look at their business models and change them to suit the world, not try and change the world to suit them.
If you have a business, and everyone stops buying do you
a) bribe government to make the alternatives to your business illegal
b) make a better product, business model, whatever
If (a), you are scum. If (b) you are good to go!
Corporations charging too much, and trying to force you into DRM schemes so that they can keep charging too much
Now lets look at Google. They couldnt care less about piracy and yet they made truck loads of cash. How is that possible??? Like Android they give it to cell manufacturers for free. FREE!!! AND THEY STILL MAKE MONEY. Fact of the matter is, corporations, especially in music, are stuck in the 20th century while the rest of us are living in the 21st century. They need to have a look at their business models and change them to suit the world, not try and change the world to suit them.
If you have a business, and everyone stops buying do you
a) bribe government to make the alternatives to your business illegal
b) make a better product, business model, whatever
If (a), you are scum. If (b) you are good to go!
Sodan
Expert Member
Saw the heading and thought "What the hell? People pirate because they are greedy? What kind of stupid article is this?"
Then I read it and saw he meant the Industry supplying online media is greedy, so that is why their products get pirated.
Then I read it and saw he meant the Industry supplying online media is greedy, so that is why their products get pirated.
Arthur
Honorary Master
Some clarifications:
(a) Google make money by selling ads (and they have a huge pile from their stock). They do NOT make money from Android or the other stuff they give away. That is not the core business or their business model, and they do not depend on the freebies to pay staff and cover expenses (obviously, because the freebies generate zero revenue). But many software companies, musicians, etc do depend on their creative works to generate a livelihood.
(b) Even what you call "give away or "free" is NOT a transfer of ownership, it is simply a royalty-free licence to use. They still retain ownership, and that's the point. They assert intellectual ownership. Google grant you the use, it has their permission. You do NOT have a right to it. It is theirs, and while they don't charge royalities and that's bully for you. But they can if they choose - and if/when they do you will need to adjust accordingly, or become a thief.
(c) Do you think Google give this stuff away because they love you, or they're nice guys? If so, you are naive. They do it to snare you more and more into their orbit, so you live and think and breathe Google, so they can profile you more and make more eye contact with you in more places, so they can sell your eyes to advertisers, and make more money.
(d) The primary revenue for millions of creative people (such as musicians, film makers, software writers) is their creative work. To use their stuff without their permission is unadulterated theft. As the owners, they have asserted their right to their work and payment from anyone they authorise to copy it. Failing to respect that right amounts to theft, ie the appropriation of a value belonging to another without the owner's consent. It is a descent into lawlessness.
You need to think this through a bit more. Question: Why the vitriol? Who has hurt you so?
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Very good point!
But I think that is where the rating/point system comes in to play, and I understand the following can not get applied to all jobs, but let us take your example:
Employer: I took a look at your work, and you know, it sucked. Did nothing for me.
You: But sir the system I have programmed saved the company $$$ last month and that is why you have to pay me.
Employer: But that is why I paid you last month.
You: But it will save the company the same amount of money this month?
And now we suddenly have passive income, and will this kind of system not also trim out all the dead weight in corporations. The biggest problem is how do you measure performance, where their work can not directly be associated to income($$$)?
DRM can also be a reason why people pirate DRM-free media.
The problem with DRM is that is makes it very inconvenient for somebody who wants to buy their media legally.
If you buy a CD e.g. you can lend it to a friend.
You cannot do it with DRM media.
The problem with DRM is that is makes it very inconvenient for somebody who wants to buy their media legally.
If you buy a CD e.g. you can lend it to a friend.
You cannot do it with DRM media.
screw DRM. the music industry needs to change the way it does business...
like the band Radio Head - they put their album "in rainbows" on their website for free download and after you listen to it, you can choose how much it was worth and only pay that.
so they reach a wider audience, meaning they make more money from concert sales and other merch...
artists need to realize that making money from selling your CDs wont be the best way to make money for much longer.
give it away for free, make more money from concerts and since they "love the music and the fans" im sure they will find their careers more fulfilling.
Arthur
Honorary Master
In this scheme:
(a) all full-time permanent employment would cease within one month.
(b) there's no way for money to actually get into the system in the first place. In the final analysis, real money is only produced by real actual work done, not by putative savings. Cost reductions do not generate revenue, but only affect profitability. Profit is not money.
encrypted
Senior Member
most people wont buy a car without trying it
most people wont buy a home without walking inside it
most people wont buy a loaf of bread they cant hold in their hand
you think i am going to buy a game/movie/album/piece of software without trying it first.... (while we are on that topic, why does a game cost R250 for the pc then R700 for the xbox/ps3 - seriously)
and on the topic, R160 for a music cd these days, thats screaming "PIRATE ME", and the artist gets what 5 bux...
hollywood earns too much for movies, so I don't even care there (hollywood is pure greed since thats the title of the article)
pirate a game, if you like it buy it
software without demos, pirate away and try it
tv shows are pirated here so we can watch them, theres no other option, people are not patient enough to wait months or years while the rest of the world is talking about something
piracy is a product of the way the world works
the people developing/producing these products are trying to make a living..
the people who whack a sticker on it and distribute it are taking their living away..
content producers, cut out the middle men
most people wont buy a home without walking inside it
most people wont buy a loaf of bread they cant hold in their hand
you think i am going to buy a game/movie/album/piece of software without trying it first.... (while we are on that topic, why does a game cost R250 for the pc then R700 for the xbox/ps3 - seriously)
and on the topic, R160 for a music cd these days, thats screaming "PIRATE ME", and the artist gets what 5 bux...
hollywood earns too much for movies, so I don't even care there (hollywood is pure greed since thats the title of the article)
pirate a game, if you like it buy it
software without demos, pirate away and try it
tv shows are pirated here so we can watch them, theres no other option, people are not patient enough to wait months or years while the rest of the world is talking about something
piracy is a product of the way the world works
the people developing/producing these products are trying to make a living..
the people who whack a sticker on it and distribute it are taking their living away..
content producers, cut out the middle men
And if I pirate a movie I'm giving more money to SA service providers
I write music, I"m not doing it for money (yet) but sure, I can understand if music was my main source of income and people were pirating my music instead of paying for it how I might feel.
What I would like to see is BANDS and ARTISTS being the ones suing people and not the labels.
The whole way a lot of people view copyright, sharing ethics and the like is out dated, humans by nature want to share things. There was another study done on the altruistic nature of the people who are doing the uploading and sharing, a very good read but I can't find the specific link now.
An artist takes a minute fraction of the profits from big music labels, most musicians make their money in live concerts, and ask Colbie Caillat and Justin (*spit*) Bieber that. If it wasnt for the free audience and distribution method of YouTube we might never have heard of them and many many other artists. If your music is that good it will go big no matter what and you will still make loads of cash. Show me one musician the internet has made poor... and Ill show you a bad musician.
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Arthur
Honorary Master
Ah, a social crusader out to right the wrongs in society! When I steal I'm hurting the baddies and crooks in Hollywood - they make too much! At least Robin Hood had the heart to give his proceeds to the poor. Do you?
C'mon, man. Either drop the pretence and just admit to being a thief, or get consistent and reject the free market and become a communist. Anything else is hot air and self-delusion, because this "thinking" fools no-one else.
Gatecrasher
Executive Member
- Joined
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Very good article. Interesting ideas. Media companies should take heed instead of trying to criminalize human nature.
MightyMuffinMan
Expert Member
I bought close to R 3000 worth of stuff on uk xbox LIVE. The day I chnaged my account to South Africa I found I could not redownload it. I won't be buying any more digital content as I don't really own it so I'm gonna pirate my digital content.