Wholesale wireless broadband network for SA?

The bigger question is whether they will be prepared to pass any savings on to us? Knowing Vodacom's history for example, I really don't think there would be any value in this for the consumer.
 
They should consider doing something like this with the newer stuff and then backward implement as needed. I've never understood why govs which are very pro competition + providing cheap telecoms do not adopt this model but whine when operators charm an arm and a foot for it. Sure its costly, but it allows you to ensure service delivery in places where others wouldn't provide it. The great thing about this kind of sharing is less base stations and less partitioning of spectrum to fit every provider in. I think in a new market operators gain by being the 1st in a particular place etc but when the market has matured the benefit falls away.

Problem comes in when ICASA has to decide why you getting drop calls etc because finger pointing to e.g. receiver coverage rather than back-haul will happen. Kinda like with ADSL.. why i am i not getting the advertised speed... well sir, its your telkom line performance.. in the mean time their network is swamped ;)
 
Articles like this really make me question the intellect of the upper management of local cellular service providers. Sharing resources and infrastructure sounds good in theory, however there are too many real world factors that would hinder such a network. I would not be surprised if Pieter Uys is hoping Vodacom's network would be used in such a manner, leaving other providers between a rock and a hard place should there be any disagreement.
 
The current model for rolling out mobile broadband in South Africa is inefficient, argues industry players

Translation: "This whole 'competition' thing is a PITA for us, we think it would be just peachy to have a single legislated, protected grand monopoly/cartel, so that we can all keep making trillions" - Pieter Uys
 
Newsflash : Steve Jobs resigned. Apple Stock falls 5% in after-hours trading. What now fan-boiz ?
 
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Translation: "This whole 'competition' thing is a PITA for us, we think it would be just peachy to have a single legislated, protected grand monopoly/cartel, so that we can all keep making trillions" - Pieter Uys

So, you're basically saying you're against LLU?
 
So, you're basically saying you're against LLU?

No Jannie. Read it again. He's basically saying that VodaCon doesn't know how to deal with competition, and are trying to figure out ways to level out the playing field. They are feeling the heat from 8.ta and especially Cell C. The previous duopoly of Vodacom + MTN is over.

That's the only logical reason. In the past, VodaCrap didn't give a rats ass about providing affordable broadband, serving rural areas, or giving back to the consumers. VodaCrap still boasts billions in profits, even after interconnect rates came down (and how much did VodaCrap wine about that??), and even after competition from Cell C in the voice and especially data space. Yet VodaCon still refuses to compete with Cell C. Just see the prepaid data bundle prices released yesterday and you will understand. In fact, some of the pricing actually went up.

History and logic stands to reason that the only reason VodaCrap supports such a proposal, is because there is some under-handed sly tactic that they have up their sleeve which will stand to make even more billions for VodaCon.

Call me a conspiracy theorist if you may, hand me a tinfoil hat, but in time the truth will be revealed.
 
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Call me a conspiracy theorist if you may, hand me a tinfoil hat, but in time the truth will be revealed.
In this case, I'll have to agree that your view is a bit tinfoil.

If an operator really wanted to control the environment they would build their own network and lock everyone out. To suggest giving the control away to a third party is going the other way and if you think about it that is exactly how LLU would work best. A body independent of the network operators, running the common network and leasing services to them, i.e. anyone can access the LL.

Just because a network operator proposed a new idea does not automatically make it evil?

Let me flip it around; How would you take scarce resource and ensure everyone of the 500 license holders can get access to it? How would you implement LLU on both copper and wireless?

And answer this; How would you ensure under-serviced areas get access to broadband? Would you be willing to pay a premium to fund it? Because that's how it works, the money's got to come from somewhere. What do you think it'll cost to cover the country with LTE? You can round it off to the nearest R10B.

So, you clearly know better. How would you do it?

BTW, which prices have gone up?
 
Centralise = no backup.

True, but if it is not viable to go there in the first place individually this at least provides a platform to get access. The real question is who will run the towers and who will ensure the towers are run well (ICASA:erm:). On keeping tower company in line, pretty sure the operators will nail the tower company if it goes down with SLA terms.

Sure the second step would be for operators to then start putting their own radios for their individual frequencies on the towers and later if the market can support it in those areas (remember this is aimed at rural and deep-rural) they can put up their own towers.
 
Translation: "This whole 'competition' thing is a PITA for us, we think it would be just peachy to have a single legislated, protected grand monopoly/cartel, so that we can all keep making trillions" - Pieter Uys

+1 - Then all the service providers will be able to blame somebody else when there is no tower to serve us in Bryanston, Johanesburg, and we will have to keep relying on Telkom for its steam ADSL..
 
The first problem I can see is the customer loosing out on fast technology roll-outs. One of the things that make the present environment so exciting is the fact that we have CDMA, 3G, 3.75G, HSPA, HSPDA, 900mhz, 1800mhz, etc, and hopefully soon LTE. Competition has meant that MNO's like CellC and 8ta have used the latest mobile data techonologies to offer better quality and speed than the old dogs VC and MTN. Cell's and 8ta's networks are a major advantage. Take a look at CellC present ad campaign's, they're all about CellC lower frequency network kicking the higher frequency operators butts! How can VC and MTN stop this type of competition, by promoting a single network operator on a single frequency using standardised technology! If it happens CellC's and MTN one big advantage will be zero'd!

Just imagine how long it will take to roll out newer faster mobile data technologies in this type of environment! The MNO's will continually fight about which tech is best, and the single network operator will always be fighting for funds to pay for the network upgrades!
 
If an operator really wanted to control the environment they would build their own network and lock everyone out.

VodaCon HAVE done this in the past, but it doesn't help them in any way now, and going forward. Yes in the past it helped, with it's duopoly status with MTN, nobody could compete. However, technology has evolved drastically, and continues to evolve, becoming cheaper, and there is plenty more competition on all levels, for both infrastructure and telecoms services (Cell C, 8.ta, Neotel, Infraco, Fibreco, Telkom, ECN, Altech, Naspers, and many others). So you can't really LOCK anyone out of the competition anymore. The regulatory environment, price of technology and convergence doesn't allow for it anymore.

To suggest giving the control away to a third party is going the other way and if you think about it that is exactly how LLU would work best. A body independent of the network operators, running the common network and leasing services to them, i.e. anyone can access the LL.

It's not about giving control away. It's about leveling the playing field. VodaCon doesn't want to incur the huge cost of maintaining it's own network anymore, as it now has to compete with Cell C and 8.ta from an Operator point of view, as well as Infraco, FibreCo, DFA, Neotel, Cell C, 8.ta, etc. from an infrastructure point of view. Previously, it had a cozy relationship with MTN and a relatively equal playing field, as both operators had to lease infrastructure from Telkom.

However, all the new operators are obviously more efficient, due to being smaller, nimbler, not constrained to long term contracts (with Telkom for e.g.), and are able to leapfrog VodaCon in terms of technology (fibre, microwave, satellite, HSPA, data centers, switching technology, billing + admin systems, and whole lot more). These operators would all be deploying new tech, while VodaCon would have to be replacing old tech with new tech, which is way more costly, as it involves a transition phase, dual illumination, migration, call it what you want.

So VodaCon thought, Hey, with all this competition, on all fronts, we're going to get screwed. Lets push for a single network to serve the entire country, that way the playing fields will be leveled, and all our network costs will be equal. But seeing as we ARE the largest network, with the most coverage, we will be the ones to gain the most, as we'll have the best leverage to sell our network + infrastructure (towers + backhaul) to a 3rd party.

Problem is, Cell C and Lars were the ones with better vision and more innovative thinking, and they beat you guys to it. While Vodacon were still figuring out what to do about the drop in interconnect rates, RICA, and Cell C's HSPA+ network, and running to the ASA about 4G and 4Gs and other squabbles, Cell C had a clear vision of what they needed to do, and implemented it quickly and with much foresight, by selling off their infrastructure to ATC. I'm sure the VodaCon boardrooms must have been a really interesting place to be in at that time.

Just because a network operator proposed a new idea does not automatically make it evil?

Normally yes. But with VodaCon, you have to be skeptical. You have to first assume that VodaCrap are in it purely for their own interests. History has shown us that VodaCon doesn't care about the consumer, and is always trying to squash the competition. Also, it was competition that forced VodaCon's hand to respond with price cuts (which are/were meagre), and not VodaCon's intention to reward customers. Remember VodaCon has been posting billions in profit for the last 20 odd years, and have used these funds to expand into the rest of Africa, while giving nothing back to the consumer. Seems like VodaCon is the new Telskum.

Let me flip it around; How would you take scarce resource and ensure everyone of the 500 license holders can get access to it? How would you implement LLU on both copper and wireless?

I'd go with the plan proposed by VodaCon. But as explained earlier, VodaCon's reasons are not because they wish to share this scarce resource with others. IIRC, ICASA have been talking about giving the much wanted digital dividend spectrum to new players like MWEB, IS, Altech and Naspers. VodaCon are scared of this (and rightfully so), and that's why they are pushing for open access to all. Rather share it with everyone (and come up with other strategies to muscle out the newer, smaller guys), then have nothing at all and worse still, have to compete against it.

And answer this; How would you ensure under-serviced areas get access to broadband? Would you be willing to pay a premium to fund it? Because that's how it works, the money's got to come from somewhere. What do you think it'll cost to cover the country with LTE? You can round it off to the nearest R10B.

I'd also go with VodaCon's proposal, as it makes the most sense, and is the most cost effective. But again, Vodacon's reasons for proposing this are not purely because they care dearly about servicing the under-serviced (and rightfully so, Vodacon is there to make a profit for its shareholders, not to be a charity). This is just a small side argument that Vodacon is making a big noise about, to get government and ICASA to buy into the idea that this proposal will help to service the poorer, rural, under-serviced areas where most of our governments voters are, an idea that our government will rejoice at, no doubt. And no doubt, it WILL help to improve service in the poorer rural areas where nobody wants to go. But this is not the reason that VodaCon is pushing the proposal for.

BTW, which prices have gone up?

Read the following thread: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...-reduces-prepaid-data-prices-(24-August-2011). If you do the maths properly, you'll see that pricing on the high end packages have actually gone up by a few rands/cents per MB. Also, by changing package sizes, users are forced to go with a higher package which costs more (but might be cheaper per MB), in order to get the same/higher data allocation (as nobody wants to reduce their data usage).

To summarise, I don't buy into this farce that VodaCon wants a shared national network for the reasons mentioned: to allow access to many more players on equal footing, to bring in more competition, and to service the under-serviced. If this were the case, VodaCon would not have been the corporate bully that it is. A few examples of corporate bullying: dramatically raising interconnect rates when Cell C launched, going after Gogga Mobile and other smaller operators, pricing Corporate APN's well above retail prices, refusing to compete with MTN, and in fact running a mutually beneficial cartel.

VodaCon are scared of losing out on the valuable digital dividend, and would rather share it, then compete against it.
 
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I agree a single network might have advantages, but except for rural areas I am totally against it - because it will reduce competition. Operators won't be pressured to roll out new technologies fast and they certainly won't compete on network speed, quality and coverage. Furthermore, a single operator might have a business model that degrades the network for everybody else.

But I also think that we don't need too many networks. I think it best if there are a couple of networks, cooperation and possibly state subsidies for rural areas and more lower level infrastructure sharing. Networks should be regulated to enable any other network operator/ISP to buy wholesale capacity on their networks in a fast, non-discriminatory, short-term basis.

But definitely not the removal of all competition in the network roll-out space.
 
Another reasons I can think of:

Wireless LLU has been gaining support recently, especially with smaller operators like MWEB drumming up support of it.. Do you think VodaCon would be happy about this? Obisouly not. They'd rather have a shared network in the Digital Dividend spectrum, than be forced to open up their network LLU style. They would then use the same argument that Telkom is trying to use: that the local loop (in this case wireless loop) is not an essential facility and there are other alternatives available like wireless (in this case, the shared network).
 
In this case, I'll have to agree that your view is a bit tinfoil.

If an operator really wanted to control the environment they would build their own network and lock everyone out. To suggest giving the control away to a third party is going the other way and if you think about it that is exactly how LLU would work best. A body independent of the network operators, running the common network and leasing services to them, i.e. anyone can access the LL.

Just because a network operator proposed a new idea does not automatically make it evil?

Let me flip it around; How would you take scarce resource and ensure everyone of the 500 license holders can get access to it? How would you implement LLU on both copper and wireless?

And answer this; How would you ensure under-serviced areas get access to broadband? Would you be willing to pay a premium to fund it? Because that's how it works, the money's got to come from somewhere. What do you think it'll cost to cover the country with LTE? You can round it off to the nearest R10B.

So, you clearly know better. How would you do it?

BTW, which prices have gone up?

Why are you not the first person to compare data with Natural resources :confused:

Let me explain the fail behind that logic.

Data isn't something that can be depleted. (We'll unless you have a bundle and run up OOB data). Gold, Oil and so on is a limited resource where as data isn't each and every person in the world can be connected whenever they want for as long as they want forever. Given the infrastructure is there. Please don't even use the Data = Resources analogy again.
 
The first problem I can see is the customer loosing out on fast technology roll-outs.

Not sure about that, by having a number of suppliers of services renting the tower they will surely put loads of pressure on the tower operators to ensure latest tech is added, otherwise their revenues degrade. Secondly I am sure the operators can put their own equipment up on the tower and use their licensed frequencies (not the digital divident then, but 900MHz has a bit of range).

I agree a single network might have advantages, but except for rural areas I am totally against it - because it will reduce competition. Operators won't be pressured to roll out new technologies fast and they certainly won't compete on network speed, quality and coverage. Furthermore, a single operator might have a business model that degrades the network for everybody else.

But I also think that we don't need too many networks. I think it best if there are a couple of networks, cooperation and possibly state subsidies for rural areas and more lower level infrastructure sharing. Networks should be regulated to enable any other network operator/ISP to buy wholesale capacity on their networks in a fast, non-discriminatory, short-term basis.

But definitely not the removal of all competition in the network roll-out space.

This is not the removal of competion, right now there is no business case at all for each operator to go out in rural areas for data, even just GSM. I do some work out it EDGE/GPRS/nothing land and I can tell you there is no way a single operator could justify an entire network roll-out. If each operator gets a piece of the spectrum they can be very limited for thoughput per radio, that is one of the reasons no one has done Wimax. If they get to share this divident there is more throughput per radio, tower and backhaul making the economies potentially worth the massive infrastructure cost. As noted above the tower operator will get nailed on SLAs if they don't perform, mobile operators will love handing it instead of being on the receiving end;)

Operators can still provide their own towers, radios, backhaul and use their own licenced frequencies. So say a tower is in a small, remote town they could have their own radios up for 900Mhz/2100Mhz with limited range and then use the shared lower frequencies to connect the rest. The shared costs should work out.
 
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