HavocXphere
Honorary Master
lol dude - 900 for a psychiatrist. If you think thats crazy...I recently got charged just over that for a (single) xray and 13 min speech about teeth.
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Depression.
- Thread starter copacetic
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RiaX
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how is it flawed ? the disease isnt related to a dietary deficiency dude. By claiming vitamin D and magnesium will aid people who are clinically depressed already and in a 'late' stage of the disease with symptoms manifesting is no different from recommending horseradish for UTI or Vitamin D for diabetics with uncontrolled blood sugar or a bandaid for a gun shot.
You think a person thats diagnosed with a mental illness (assuming its correctly diagnosed) can be treated with dietary supplements alone? that is sheer madness in its own right
I will just wait for your big pharma nonsense again and that the whole world is in on a conpiracy EXCEPT Swa the amazing fellow that sees through the lies Drs and pharmacists create even though we dont know each other. Oh i would love to tell you more but i need to log into my big pharma social network - its like facebook
EDIT:
its insulting to imply that depression can be treated with a dietary change. You can support treatment if you deficient yes but do not belittle people who suffer from this disease that is not cool.
and FYI 90% of depressed patients dont really have any severe deficiencies. As I've said countless times I ran a psych unit and in a hospital based psych unit bloods are done monthly until control is achieved and repeated 6 months there after. There is a deficiency when the patient becomes so depressed they refuse to eat but by then your dietary change will do sweet nothing - provided you can get them to take supplements or even eat lol
RiaX
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Well if you down your brain is probably down as well in terms of function WRT to happiness. So if you can bluff it then bluff it should work just as well. Dont underestimate the placebo effect
However if you on other medications keep in mind St john wort causes strain on the liver and may interfere with the metabolism of chronic drugs.
Lol man you are making the classic category mistake. It's like comparing apples and bricks. Let's see where you went wrong. UTI is a disease that needs to be treated like one. Now let's apply your logic here to your earlier example of scurvy. Scurvy is a disease + UTI is a disease + disease needs antibiotics = scurvy requires antibiotics. Oops, scurvy requires Vitamin C. If you were actually consistent you would recommend antibiotics but you make an exception to your category for anti-depressants. Wonder why.
The studies show it can. But of course you would deny it and punt pharmaceuticals that are less effective with studies that have been shown flawed.
Continue with your little canard. You have been shown you are the one playing the conspiracy card just like those that keep playing the racist card when confronted with real and uncomfortable criticisms.
You are being insulting by saying that a natural cure that helped for me and many others is nothing but an illusion. Luckily many real doctors, not mere pill popping pharmacists, are discovering that this is not the case. You can welcome change or be the dinosaur left in the tarpit.
90% of people don't have deficiencies? Funny when doctors don't test for deficiencies and most don't even know how.
D3nz
Honorary Master
This! Many people trivialise the illness because they don't understand it,and this is one of the reasons people who need medical treatment, don't seek it.
RiaX
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err no. Scurvy is a disease yes, UTI is a disease yes but they both have their own treatments according to the disease. Which is something you not understanding. Scurvy is disease due to severe deficiency you treat it with vitC not antibiotic correct. UTI is and infection you treat it with an antibiotic not with VitC LIKEWISE depression is a disease you treat it with antidepressants not magnesium or vitD.
Studies ? studies can also show lemon juice curing HIV. Scholar works are very different from real application when will you understand this ? its like talking to wall
ok sure im conspiring to rob people by recommending that people who have clinical depression dont listen your garbage that Vitamin D cures everything from pains, to depression, to schizophrenia, to OCD, to diabetes, arthritis, cancer, HIV. Hell why do we even have medicines. Improvement is not treatment lad. Have you even noted what level of improvement is gained ? you do realise there class systems. Since you so well read tell me in your own words (dont cite nonsense to me and you cite because you dont understand what you reading) the improvement IN CLINICAL TERMS
Were you really depressed or were you just sad ? who diagnosed you ? why were you depressed ? and did you ONLY take VitD and magnesium? didnt use a single pharmaceutical prior or concurrently ?
Most likely you werent depressed and one of those looking for attention or you were at worst accutely depressed and got over it. Either way dont think your mild form of depression is a) severe because you had it b) is the same globally. what works for you doesnt apply for the next
Really and how many doctor prescriptions do you encounter on a daily basis ? LOL maybe they not prescribing anything to you because there is actually nothing wrong with you. You apparently have every aliment on the forum and come and recommend vitamins for disease beyond that. Whats next? a thread titled "going for neurosurgery" and you will come "nooooo take vitamin D here is a bogus study that showed one guy had an improvement and it totally wasnt chance and the study was not done properly but you dont need surgery just take some vitamin D copper and calcium and you be good"
yet another stat pulled out your @ss how many doctors you know ? how many confidential patient files you have access too? all you have are your own experience and BS stories from people just like you who are either too daft to do real medicine or are simply liars
diabolus
Executive Member
Since my parents are doctors , i have to agree with RiaX there. The argument against his statements is very much sounding like that minister who said onions and beetroot will cure HIV . I have found that equally insulting as people saying you can just pop some vitamins and your depression goes away...seriously..
Obviously as with all health related things, a healthy diet and exercise is a "baseline" to sustain a healthy living, but it's certainly not a magic bullet to cure every disease or mental problem.
Because alot of people are abusing medicine , i.e. popping fat burning pills so they can continue eating poorly , does not mean medicine is an evil and some conspiracy that needs to be avoided at all cost.
Obviously as with all health related things, a healthy diet and exercise is a "baseline" to sustain a healthy living, but it's certainly not a magic bullet to cure every disease or mental problem.
Because alot of people are abusing medicine , i.e. popping fat burning pills so they can continue eating poorly , does not mean medicine is an evil and some conspiracy that needs to be avoided at all cost.
Chicken Boo
Senior Member
It's worrying to read such a strong head-up-ass attitude from a supposed industry professional. I've never heard of a psych ever inquiring about diet, and there's no doubt that a junk food diet can wreak havoc on mood and brain function, much to the consumer's ignorance. To snicker about correcting or improving a depressed person's diet indicates either strong ignorance or strong lack of desire to do what is in the best interests of the patient. Correcting diet should be a first-line approach, not something to dismiss out of hand. At least doing some bloodwork for nutrients and having SOME kind of test, rather than a purely speculative test-free 'diagnosis'.
No one is belittling depressed patients or what they are suffering from, weak attempt at red herring. Your arguments are consistently flawed, and I think I'd be glad to never consult you for your professional opinion on anything regarding health. This thread would probably be the richer for you not posting in it again.
copacetic
King of the Hippies
Oh **** - RiaX and Swa seem to have bumped noggins.
Batten down the hatches men!
Batten down the hatches men!
Oh **** - RiaX and Swa seem to have bumped noggins.
Batten down the hatches men!
an avalanche of stupid
killadoob
Honorary Master
Copa makes a post with humour, you make a post like that alan? common bro positive attitude.
Swa i think with your magnesium and vitamin D combined with my positive attitude theory, we have cured mental illness.
Swa i think with your magnesium and vitamin D combined with my positive attitude theory, we have cured mental illness.
It seems to be something you're not understanding as I had to just explain it to you.
This is where you incorrectly assume pharmaceuticals are the only treatment for depression because it's a disease despite scurvy proving this logic flawed. You seem to have a problem understanding this.
Funny I feel the same
You're just continuing to confirm your ignorance here by not addressing the points. I don't care what the clinical improvement is, I feel at least 80% better and no amount of medical jargon is going to change that FACT.
Great, now you know what I had and didn't have because obviously if I was really depressed only meds could help me.
Here, have some more of this
:wtf: YOU are the one that came up with the bogus stat. You are a pharmacist! You are not a doctor that knows everything about every disease on the planet but act like it. That's if you really are one because with this type of "logic" I really have to wonder how you can pass anything.
Did you do the research concerning onions and beetroot and magnesium? If you did you'd see there's a vast world of difference and comparing them is a statement of ignorance.
P
Picard
Guest
Some people prove that spin doctoring, whether applied to politics or common medical science is just as effective in trying to win an argument as hard facts are.
RiaX
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lol no one said you must not change your diet or maintain a good one ? where did you get that from?
Its a fact dietary change can only get you so far.
Let me ask you this ? VitD is used to maintain the integrity of nerve tissues through the body, do you think it will be an affective treatment in say multiple sclerosis ?
Next when you have a diabetic its all good to modify the diet and maintain control with a lifestyle modification but eventually pharmacological treatment will have to be initiated because the pathology has progressed to a point where lifestyle modification is no longer effective.
Diet is NOT treatment. First you need to understand there is a lot more at play that you dont know. You assume you know more than me and that you would never have to consult me, thats fine when a patient like this enters my dormain and pretends they know more than me and their Drs we nail them in price and we note down that they insisted on that modality and enter businessman mode.
Magnesium and Vitamin D will never cure depression support yes treat no. Its the same with immunoboosters do you know why they not given to HIV positive patients ? because diet and supplements cannot cure HIV. So say you patient is depressed because they are HIV positive ? what will your magnesium do ? absolutely f**k all
Again YOU havent HEARD of a psych inquiring. How many psychs you know ? 2 maybe 3 ? you probably a private sector patient as well. You see private sector doctors dont like to do blood tests because patient moan to pay so unless its absolutely necessary they wont do it, save them the headache with labs and the headache the patient will give them if its inconclusive. How arrogant to think your account applies globally
Secondly a specialist doesnt ask these retarded questions because diet exercise and healthy living is taken as a given and to be managed by the patient and advised by the GP. Its not your Doctors job to police you to eat healthy and to maintain your general health is not the job of a specialist.
So yes correcting diet is first-line for prevention. There after its supportive and not curative in the case of chronic diseases.
Swa
goway
I think Swa speaks as someone who has actually been through the depression journey himself and has experienced the shortcomings of contemporary psychiatry. Some depression sufferers do not find adequate relief when using antidepressant medication but do find relief when using alternative treatments. That's a fact.
Personally I'm doing quite well these last few weeks, roughly since I started taking a vitamin D supplement.
Personally I'm doing quite well these last few weeks, roughly since I started taking a vitamin D supplement.
I'll rather not link you to all the studies because according to you anything can be proven with a study. So we'll just skip the most important factor any researcher will insist on. Of course then throw out all those ARVs you have as they have their success in studies.
I think he was saying he will not consult YOU. It's you making the assumptions on what's known and what isn't.
Yet it does. Fcking arrogant of you to say it's all a lie.
You want some more straw men to knock down?
Well then, disproves your previous statement that 90% of depressed people don't have deficiencies as you'd have no effing clue.
A specialist just assumes that everybody is doing what they should while knowing that nobody probably is? Errr ok then...
Chicken Boo
Senior Member
Got it from you insisting diet can't help? You've changed your tune since and concede it can be a first-line approach.
Red herrings again... we're talking about depression here right. Stop bringing other afflictions into it.
Your arrogance is staggering. Yes there's more at play than you, me or any doctor on the planet knows. Doctors cannot explain why one medication will work well for one patient but not for another, it's all stabs in the dark when it comes to brain chemistry - in this era at least, I believe in the future as technology progresses treatment will be possible according to gene/DNA build. And then we'll reflect back on this time of one-size-fits-all chemical cures like we look back now at the idea of drilling holes in people's heads.
I don't think anyone is pretending. And any doubt about your scruples just took a jump out the window.
And an SSRI in such a case?
I think it's clear you're only trying to cover your own ass/profession, as one would expect I guess. As pointed out previously, cured patients are not customers.
Now I'm sure there are some pills to count somewhere, why don't you get to it.
Well, there isn't really a cure for depression. Antidepressants work, in my opinion, by reducing the severity, or eliminating, some of the symptoms of depression, for example, anxiety, sleep disturbances, poor self esteem, without necessarily ever treating the depression itself. They lower your Hamilton score without necessarily curing the actual depression. In a clinical trial, the conclusion will be that the active compound lowered the Hamilton score of subjects on average significantly more than placebo, and the antidepressant will be hailed as effective. In reality, the antidepressant should be declared efficacious without necessarily being effective.
When you speak to many depression patients who are on antidepressant medication, they'll tell you the antidepressants work, in some sense, but that at the end of the day they still feel depressed.
Take caffeine for example. Caffeine actually raises your Hamilton score because it promotes insomnia, anxiety and irritability. Yet coffee drinkers usually report that coffee has a strong though short-lived antidepressant effect. I seem to recall that coffee drinking is associated with a lower suicide rate. Caffeine is a substance that, on paper, promotes depression, in the simplistic way that the severity of depression is measured, while in reality, it actually has an antidepressant effect.
I believe that prescription antidepressants work similarly. They lower your Hamilton score without ever really improving your mood. They may even work by reducing your ability to feel in its entirety, good or bad. Anhedonia is a documented side-effect of SSRI antidepressants. Long term use of SSRIs has an antidopaminergic effect as the dopamine transporter begins doubling as a serotonin transporter.
Some antidepressants barely outperform placebo. This is not necessarily as bad as it sounds because mental illness, by its very nature, has a strong psycho-somatic component. But I think one should be careful to adopt the attitude that antidepressants work, and alternative treatments don't, because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
An example of this is the infamous JAMA trial where St John's Wort was compared to placebo, with Zoloft as an active comparator. Both St John's Wort and Zoloft failed to outperform placebo. The press focused on the fact that St John's Wort, the alternative treatment, failed to outperform placebo, with little mention of the fact that Zoloft fared the same. This shows the bias against alternative treatments.
A meta-analysis has shown that the prescription antidepressant reboxetine does not outperform placebo.
Pharmaceutical companies also commit fraud. Here is a document, previously used in lawsuits used against Eli Lilly, showing how the company instructed researchers to alter trial data on fluoxetine:
It is a documented fact that young depression patients who use SSRI antidepressants are at higher risk of attempting suicide than young depression patients who do not use SSRI antidepressants.
SSRIs raise pre-synaptic serotonin levels within hours of taking the first tablet, yet an antidepressant effect takes weeks to manifest, coinciding with hippocampal growth, which may be, ironically, due to the release of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, a hormone that promotes neuron repair, released in your brain when the brain perceives itself as being under attack. How does this, the fact that increased levels of serotonin don't immediately yield and antidepressant effect, bode for the serotonin hypothesis of depression?
The antidepressant tianeptine is a serotonin reuptake accelerator. It does the opposite of SSRIs. How does this bode for the serotonin hypothesis of depression?
In my own depression journey, I have been treated by psychiatrists and GPs using medication, I have seen a psychologist, and I have experimented enthusiastically with supplements, diet, and lifestyle interventions. I believe, based on my experiences, that the best treatment is a comprehensive treatment. I do not believe, based on my experiences, that standard psychiatry on its own is all that effective, for depression at least, and I have, on many occasions, benefited greatly from the advice of the so-called quacks.
When you speak to many depression patients who are on antidepressant medication, they'll tell you the antidepressants work, in some sense, but that at the end of the day they still feel depressed.
Take caffeine for example. Caffeine actually raises your Hamilton score because it promotes insomnia, anxiety and irritability. Yet coffee drinkers usually report that coffee has a strong though short-lived antidepressant effect. I seem to recall that coffee drinking is associated with a lower suicide rate. Caffeine is a substance that, on paper, promotes depression, in the simplistic way that the severity of depression is measured, while in reality, it actually has an antidepressant effect.
I believe that prescription antidepressants work similarly. They lower your Hamilton score without ever really improving your mood. They may even work by reducing your ability to feel in its entirety, good or bad. Anhedonia is a documented side-effect of SSRI antidepressants. Long term use of SSRIs has an antidopaminergic effect as the dopamine transporter begins doubling as a serotonin transporter.
Some antidepressants barely outperform placebo. This is not necessarily as bad as it sounds because mental illness, by its very nature, has a strong psycho-somatic component. But I think one should be careful to adopt the attitude that antidepressants work, and alternative treatments don't, because there is plenty of evidence to the contrary.
An example of this is the infamous JAMA trial where St John's Wort was compared to placebo, with Zoloft as an active comparator. Both St John's Wort and Zoloft failed to outperform placebo. The press focused on the fact that St John's Wort, the alternative treatment, failed to outperform placebo, with little mention of the fact that Zoloft fared the same. This shows the bias against alternative treatments.
A meta-analysis has shown that the prescription antidepressant reboxetine does not outperform placebo.
Pharmaceutical companies also commit fraud. Here is a document, previously used in lawsuits used against Eli Lilly, showing how the company instructed researchers to alter trial data on fluoxetine:
It is a documented fact that young depression patients who use SSRI antidepressants are at higher risk of attempting suicide than young depression patients who do not use SSRI antidepressants.
SSRIs raise pre-synaptic serotonin levels within hours of taking the first tablet, yet an antidepressant effect takes weeks to manifest, coinciding with hippocampal growth, which may be, ironically, due to the release of brain-derived neurotrophic factor, a hormone that promotes neuron repair, released in your brain when the brain perceives itself as being under attack. How does this, the fact that increased levels of serotonin don't immediately yield and antidepressant effect, bode for the serotonin hypothesis of depression?
The antidepressant tianeptine is a serotonin reuptake accelerator. It does the opposite of SSRIs. How does this bode for the serotonin hypothesis of depression?
In my own depression journey, I have been treated by psychiatrists and GPs using medication, I have seen a psychologist, and I have experimented enthusiastically with supplements, diet, and lifestyle interventions. I believe, based on my experiences, that the best treatment is a comprehensive treatment. I do not believe, based on my experiences, that standard psychiatry on its own is all that effective, for depression at least, and I have, on many occasions, benefited greatly from the advice of the so-called quacks.