Muslims protect churches

[Fazda]

the moment when people are seen as people, and not because of their origins/culture, is the moment world peace would become a possibility. but alas.

scotty you just have to look at the comments of some of the people on this thread and you will realise that world peace will never happen with thinkers like this around.

 

[Ronjay]

scotty you just have to look at the comments of some of the people on this thread and you will realise that world peace will never happen with thinkers like this around.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call them thinkers. Stronger words come to mind.

 

[SYNERGY]

Well, I wouldn't exactly call them thinkers. Stronger words come to mind.

Agreed lol.

 

[Lightscribe]

scotty you just have to look at the comments of some of the people on this thread and you will realise that world peace will never happen with thinkers like this around.

Well, I wouldn't exactly call them thinkers. Stronger words come to mind.

Agreed lol.

The Arab world must face its demons

Attacks on Christians are a wake-up call for fragmented Arab societies where disenfranchisement breeds bigotry.

In the wake of the recent attack on Coptic Christians in Egypt, Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president, warned that Christians face a campaign of "religious cleansing in the Middle East". But, given Western governments' colonial history and double standards on human rights, Arab Christians would be better served by an end to destructive Western intervention in the region than by sympathetic statements.

This Western show of concern is not only hypocritical and damaging to social cohesion, but could serve to further ignite the growing wave of sectarianism sweeping the region. It was, after all, Western colonial powers that planted the seeds of the divisions that haunt the Arab world to this day and the US invasion and occupation of Iraq that unleashed the sectarian strife from which it is reeling.

As an Arab Christian, originally from Bethlehem, I am offended to hear Western leaders pretend to defend Arab Christians, while they either do nothing to stop or actively support Israeli violations of the human rights and dignity of the Palestinian people - Muslim and Christian alike.

The hate in our midst

But this is not to say that Arab societies do not also bear the blame for nurturing the bigotry and hate in our midst.

The attacks on Christian worshippers, first in Iraq and now in Egypt, should serve as a wake-up call for the governments and citizens of the Arab world.

The region's social cohesion has for some time been at risk of total implosion. Repression and economic disenfranchisement have bred extremism, particularly among the young - many of whom despair of a secure, let alone successful, future.

Most Arab governments, with complete Western support, backed Islamic fundamentalists with the aim of undercutting the secular wave of pan-Arab nationalism and leftist activism that engulfed the region during the 1950s, 1960s and part of the 1970s.

In turn, Western governments, with the total complicity of many Arab states, used Islamic groups to fight communism, funding groups that rallied to the battle against the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan as a religious war against communism. A wave of extremists who advocated a very narrow and distorted interpretation of Islam - devoid of the tolerance the ancient religion espouses - was unleashed.

The emergence of al-Qaeda, in part as an expression of anger towards Western interventionism, has also given a voice to prejudiced views of 'the other', including Arab and other Christians.

But the massacres in Iraq and Egypt reveal that the language of hate that has been pervading some Islamic websites and extremist groups has not been adequately countered and addressed by Muslim scholars and intellectuals.

Constituency of the oppressed

Islam is being manipulated by bigots and quasi-intellectuals who thrive on feeding hate to a constituency of young people frustrated by foreign domination and social injustice.

The carnage at the Alexandria church was carried out by a young man who saw Egyptian Christians as representatives of 'the other' - possibly blaming them for the social ills of Egyptian society. But this likely disenfranchised young Muslim wrought vengeance on people who most probably suffered equally from the country's prevailing social injustices.

There is, undeniably, a misconception that Christians in the Arab world are an extension of the West - a perspective that will only have been perpetuated by Western reactions to the latest attack.

The vast majority of Christians in the Arab world are Arabs and those of other ethnicities are an integral part of their countries, although it must be noted that southern Sudan is a more complicated case.

Even under the oppressive rule of Saddam Hussein, the late Iraqi president, Chaldeans were protected, not considered outsiders. In Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, the Armenian minority enjoys the same rights as Muslim citizens.

But this also means that Arab Christians as well as Christians of other ethnicities suffer the same repression by Arab governments as their Muslim brethren. Establishing democratic institutions and ensuring full civil rights and participation for all would go a long way towards eradicating communal divisions.

But the attack in Alexandria must also bring attention to the recent history of discrimination against Egyptian Copts, such as government obstruction of the building of churches, which has added to their feelings of marginalisation. This must be acknowledged by both the state and Egyptian Muslims who have been in denial about the growing sense of resentment felt by their Christian compatriots.

Egyptian writer Hani Shukrallah has accused Egyptian society of practicing the same double standards it rightly accuses the West of employing, pointing to the hypocrisy of those who "rise up in fury over a decision to halt construction of a Muslim centre near Ground Zero in New York, but applaud the Egyptian police when they halt the construction of a staircase in a Coptic church in the Omranya district of Greater Cairo".

Growing mistrust

Sectarianism and prejudice is not confined to extremist or misguided Arab Muslims. Hostile views of Islam are also on the rise within some Arab Christian circles, some of which - either out of fear or to receive Western funding - act as though they are an extension of the West.

This growing mistrust is evident in some of the mushrooming Muslim and Christian satellite channels, which foment spiteful stereotypes and broadcast chauvinism to millions in the name of religion. Many of the Christian channels involved in deepening sectarianism are funded by Western donors. And while it is not clear who funds the Muslim channels, some governments have used radical Islamists to counter the Muslim Brotherhood - the dominant opposition force in many Arab states.

Arab governments are more likely to censor opposition media than bigoted channels that help to divert attention from the real social problems facing their people.

This creeping sectarianism can be found not only in relations between Christians and Muslims but also between Muslims. Colonialism has left Lebanon with a sectarian system that pits Shia and Sunni Muslims against each other as well as against Christians. The invasion of Iraq has left the country with a sectarian and ethnic conflict that has now been institutionalised in the form of sectarian power-sharing. Sudan is splitting over ethnic and religious divides.

The West is not honest, but we Arabs are equally as guilty. Sarkozy and other Western leaders can save us their speeches. The Western outcry over slaughtered Christians, while it is engaged in killing Arabs in Iraq and Muslims in Afghanistan, could only preclude a real introspective discussion about the Arab role in creating fragmented societies and it is time for us to face our own demons.

Lamis Andoni is an analyst and commentator on Middle Eastern and Palestinian affairs.

http://english.aljazeera.net/indepth/opinion/2011/01/20111984740173586.html

 

[Mineer]

Attacks on Christians are a wake-up call for fragmented Arab societies where disenfranchisement breeds bigotry.

kinda weird in a thread called "Muslims protect churches"

Most Arab governments, with complete Western support, backed Islamic fundamentalists with the aim of undercutting the secular wave of pan-Arab nationalism and leftist activism that engulfed the region during the 1950s, 1960s and part of the 1970s.

so what u saying is the west supports this killing of Christians

 

[Lightscribe]

kinda weird in a thread called "Muslims protect churches"

In context.

so what u saying is the west supports this killing of Christians

No. Although the west is not innocent in causing harm either.

 

[CaTcH21]

They need to pay Zakat, they pay for and fund their mosques and it is through these mosques that terrorism gains it's grounds to be harbored. Be it directly or slightly advertantly, these terrorists would not be able to gain the power they have if it was not for the protection and war ground that so many of these saudi built mosques provide.
Without these communities and the structure they provide these terrorist organisations could not ome to gain the scope of power they have gained.

And besides, where are the Muslims that are so ever standing against these terrorists, are their any? only 2 out of 1.5 billion? why don't they say something?

And to add: Terrorism is not the only act that threatens human rights alone, and as I have said before, the harm caused by terrorism is minor in comparative scope compared to the harm that is caused by normal and usual everyday Islamic practices and what they vow for. We merly concern ourselves with terrorism because of rather the threat and not primarily because of the current harm it is causing.

What exactly do you know about zakaat ?
Who pays for and funds the mosques ?
What proof do you have that in the mosques terrorism gains ground ?
What proof do you have that terrorists are protected by Saudi built mosques ?

How do you know that only 2 out of 1.5 billion condemn/oppose the (muslim) terrorists ?
What exactly is 'everyday' Islamic practices ?

Since you think you know so much, please shed some light on my above questions.

 

[FunkyToyz]

I am not going to comment on all the *** that u saying cos u a d o o s and believe what u want to,...

I dont care what evidence u have especially your version of muslims being indoctrinated and mutilated from birth , u evidence is k@k ...

Out of all the posts in this thread, I feel the above comments posted are the most appropriated !

Phenom and Lightscribe, the best is to actually make dua for people like you! I seriously cannot believe that you will research the internet in order to gain 'evidence'. **** the internet is man made, and everything that is searchable on the internet can be manipulated.

I won't get into any of the debates with anyone as it can be seen, and is very blatant in this thread, that debating with narrow minded imbeciles are completely pointless.

I can't believe I actually read through some of the k@k posted in this thread. I am utterely shocked and disgusted by the views of the 2 forum users mentioned.

<removed>

 

[Mineer]

Out of all the posts in this thread, I feel the above comments posted are the most appropriated !

Phenom and Lightscribe, the best is to actually make dua for people like you! I seriously cannot believe that you will research the internet in order to gain 'evidence'. **** the internet is man made, and everything that is searchable on the internet can be manipulated.

I won't get into any of the debates with anyone as it can be seen, and is very blatant in this thread, that debating with narrow minded imbeciles are completely pointless.

I can't believe I actually read through some of the k@k posted in this thread. I am utterely shocked and disgusted by the views of the 2 forum users mentioned.

<removed>

Slm my brother in Islam,
While your sentiment I agree with cos I am also Muslim I would prefer if u do not use swear word while defending Islam, yes its difficult reading these post by our esteemed forumites, namely Phenom and Lightscribe. But I urge you, my brother do not sink to that level where swearing and calling ppl names is ok, its not and never will be.

I am asking you kindly not to do this ever again. If you feel offended use the report button or better yet rebut them (i.e. to refute by evidence or argument)
Thank you
Your fellow Muslim

As to Phenom and Lightscribe I apologize on behalf of my brother pls accept this apology from me

 

[wise_guy]

Slm my brother in Islam,
While your sentiment I agree with cos I am also Muslim I would prefer if u do not use swear word while defending Islam, yes its difficult reading these post by our esteemed forumites, namely Phenom and Lightscribe. But I urge you, my brother do not sink to that level where swearing and calling ppl names is ok, its not and never will be.

I am asking you kindly not to do this ever again. If you feel offended use the report button or better yet rebut them (i.e. to refute by evidence or argument)
Thank you
Your fellow Muslim

As to Phenom and Lightscribe I apologize on behalf of my brother pls accept this apology from me

+1.As much as some of the anti-Islamic rhetoric can sometimes be offensive,a true test of a Muslim is to show strong character,resolve and patience in times like these.I would therefore say that Funkytoyz comments are completely uncalled for.
Indeed Funky we despise the actions and not the person.

 

[Lightscribe]

Out of all the posts in this thread, I feel the above comments posted are the most appropriated !

Phenom and Lightscribe, the best is to actually make dua for people like you! I seriously cannot believe that you will research the internet in order to gain 'evidence'. **** the internet is man made, and everything that is searchable on the internet can be manipulated.

I won't get into any of the debates with anyone as it can be seen, and is very blatant in this thread, that debating with narrow minded imbeciles are completely pointless.

I can't believe I actually read through some of the k@k posted in this thread. I am utterely shocked and disgusted by the views of the 2 forum users mentioned.

<removed>

Slm my brother in Islam,
While your sentiment I agree with cos I am also Muslim I would prefer if u do not use swear word while defending Islam, yes its difficult reading these post by our esteemed forumites, namely Phenom and Lightscribe. But I urge you, my brother do not sink to that level where swearing and calling ppl names is ok, its not and never will be.

I am asking you kindly not to do this ever again. If you feel offended use the report button or better yet rebut them (i.e. to refute by evidence or argument)
Thank you
Your fellow Muslim

As to Phenom and Lightscribe I apologize on behalf of my brother pls accept this apology from me

+1.As much as some of the anti-Islamic rhetoric can sometimes be offensive,a true test of a Muslim is to show strong character,resolve and patience in times like these.I would therefore say that Funkytoyz comments are completely uncalled for.
Indeed Funky we despise the actions and not the person.

Thank you, Mineer and BOYA.

 

[FunkyToyz]

Slm to all the Muslims. I do apologise for the way I have handled this. I too agree that the way I responded was one of anger instead of being rational. In the heat of the moment response.

 

[Who Me]

This artical come across as a PR move intended to sooth the copts as well as the rest of the christain world.

But does it really indicate a shift in the attitude of muslims towards christain minorities?

Off-duty Muslim cop shoots Copts
http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/off-duty-muslim-cop-shoots-copts-1.1010914

 

[Mineer]

This artical come across as a PR move intended to sooth the copts as well as the rest of the christain world.

But does it really indicate a shift in the attitude of muslims towards christain minorities?

Off-duty Muslim cop shoots Copts
http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/off-duty-muslim-cop-shoots-copts-1.1010914

PR or not I think it does show not all Muslims think this way, Sunni Muslims make up 90% of the Muslim population and we are the one's that do not have this delusional stance namely "killing Christians for practicing their religion". I am one of those Muslim's who would stand up against those so called "Muslims" doing this killing. they have no basis in Islamic teaching, look up Quran 2:256

 

[wise_guy]

Slm to all the Muslims. I do apologise for the way I have handled this. I too agree that the way I responded was one of anger instead of being rational. In the heat of the moment response.

You don't have to apologise to us brother,but be that as it may now you know how shaitan sneaks up on you.All's forgiven.

 

[Lightscribe]

This artical come across as a PR move intended to sooth the copts as well as the rest of the christain world.

But does it really indicate a shift in the attitude of muslims towards christain minorities?

Off-duty Muslim cop shoots Copts
http://www.iol.co.za/news/africa/off-duty-muslim-cop-shoots-copts-1.1010914

Studying the Islamic Way of War
To know an enemy, one must first acknowledge his existence.

At the inaugural conference for the Association for the Study of the Middle East and Africa (ASMEA) back in April, presenter LTC Joseph Myers made an interesting point that deserves further elaboration. Though military studies have traditionally valued and absorbed the texts of classical war doctrine — such as Clausewitz’s On War, Sun Tsu’s The Art of War, even the exploits of Alexander the Great as recorded in Arrian and Plutarch — Islamic war doctrine, which is just as if not more textually grounded, is totally ignored.

As recently as 2006, former top Pentagon official William Gawthrop lamented that “the senior Service colleges of the Department of Defense had not incorporated into their curriculum a systematic study of Muhammad as a military or political leader. As a consequence, we still do not have an in-depth understanding of the war-fighting doctrine laid down by Muhammad, how it might be applied today by an increasing number of Islamic groups, or how it might be countered [emphasis added].” Today, seven full years after September 11, our understanding of the Islamic way of war is little better.

This is more ironic when one considers that, while classical military theories (Clausewitz, Sun Tzu, Machiavelli, et. al.) continue to be included on war-college syllabi, the argument can be made that they have little practical value for today’s far different landscape of warfare and diplomacy. Contrast this with Islam’s doctrines of war: their “theological” quality — grounded as they are in a religion whose “divine” precepts transcend time and space, and are believed to be immutable — make Islam’s war doctrines unlikely ever to go out of style. While one can argue that learning how Alexander maneuvered his cavalry at the Battle of Guagamela in 331 BC is both academic and anachronistic, the exploits and stratagems of the prophet Muhammad — his “war sunna” — still serve as an example to modern-day jihadists.

For instance, based on the words and deeds of Muhammad, most schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that the following are all legitimate during war against the infidel: the indiscriminate use of missile weaponry, even if women and children are present (catapults in Muhammad’s seventh century context; hijacked planes or WMD today); the need to always deceive the enemy and even break formal treaties whenever possible (see Sahih Muslim 15: 4057); and that the only function of the peace treaty, or “hudna,” is to give the Islamic armies time to regroup for a renewed offensive, and should, in theory, last no more than ten years.

Quranic verses 3:28 and 16:106, as well as Muhammad’s famous assertion, “War is deceit,” have all led to the formulation of a number of doctrines of dissimulation — the most notorious among them being the doctrine of “Taqiyya,” which permits Muslims to lie and dissemble whenever they are under the authority of the infidel. Deception has such a prominent role that renowned Muslim scholar Ibn al-Arabi declares: “n the Hadith, practicing deceit in war is well demonstrated. Indeed, its need is more stressed than [the need for] courage.”

In addition to ignoring these well documented Islamist strategies, more troubling still is the Defense Department’s continuing failure to appreciate the pertinent “eternal” doctrines of Islam — such as the Abode of War versus the Abode of Islam dichotomy, which maintains that Islam must always be in a state of animosity vis-à-vis the infidel world and, whenever possible, must wage wars until all infidel territory has been brought under Islamic rule. In fact, this dichotomy of hostility is unambiguously codified under Islam’s worldview and is deemed a fard kifaya — that is, an obligation on the entire Muslim body that can only be fulfilled as long as some Muslims, say, “jihadists,” actively uphold it.

Despite these problematic — but revealing — doctrines, despite the fact that a quick perusal of Islamist websites and books demonstrate time and again that current and would-be jihadists constantly quote, and thus take seriously, these doctrinal aspects of war, senior U.S. government officials charged with defending America do not.

Why? Because the “Whisperers” — Walid Phares’s apt epithet for the majority of Middle East/Islamic scholars and their willing apologists in the press — have made anathema anyone who dares to point out a connection between Islamic doctrine and modern-day Islamist terrorism — as witness, the Steven Coughlin debacle. This is an all too familiar tale for those in the field (see Martin Kramer’s Ivory Towers on Sand: the Failure of Middle Eastern Studies in America).

While there exists today many Middle East studies departments, one would be sorely pressed (especially in the more “prestigious” universities) to find any courses dealing with the most pivotal and relevant topics of today — such as Islamic jurisprudence and what it says about jihad or the concept of the Abode of Islam versus the Abode of War. These topics, we are assured, have troubling international implications and are best buried. Instead, the would-be student is inundated with courses dealing with the evils of “Orientalism” and colonialism, gender studies, and civil society.

The greater irony — when one talks about Islam and the West, ironies often abound — is that, on the very same day of the ASMEA conference, which also contained a forthright address by premiere Islamic scholar Bernard Lewis (“It seems to me a dangerous situation in which any kind of scholarly discussion of Islam is, to say the least, dangerous”), the State Department announced that it would not call al-Qaeda type radicals “jihadis,” “mujahadin,” nor incorporate any other Arabic word of Islamic connotation (“caliphate,” “Islamo-fascism,” “Salafi,” “Wahhabi,” and “Ummah” are also out).

Alas, far from taking the most basic and simple advice regarding warfare — Sun Tzu’s ancient dictum, “Know thy enemy” — the U.S. government is having difficulties even acknowledging its enemy.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/225611/studying-islamic-way-war/raymond-ibrahim?page=3

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2005/01/fitzgerald-islam-for-infidels-part-one.html

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=178

 

[FunkyToyz]

Astagfirullah - May Allah strengthen us in our imaan and guide 'those' onto the straight path - Inshallah Ameen.

 

[SYNERGY]

@Lightscribe: What do you think of your fellow South Africans that are muslims? Any of your friends/colleagues etc?

Genuinely curious.

Thanks

 

[Lightscribe]

@Lightscribe: What do you think of your fellow South Africans that are muslims? Any of your friends/colleagues etc?

Genuinely curious.

Thanks

I love them as people. I hope they can come up with a solution, since it's their worldview.

As the Coptic Church leader made it clear, laws must be created, to permanently safeguard non Muslims, by various governments, or the world is in serious danger.

The links I provided, show the difficulty in finding a solution. Read all comments and parts of the Jihadwatch link.

 

[Who Me]

PR or not I think it does show not all Muslims think this way, Sunni Muslims make up 90% of the Muslim population and we are the one's that do not have this delusional stance namely "killing Christians for practicing their religion". I am one of those Muslim's who would stand up against those so called "Muslims" doing this killing. they have no basis in Islamic teaching, look up Quran 2:256

So are Shia muslims responsible?

Based on what I have found on the net I dont think so, they are also persecuted by sunni muslims and have declared sucide bombings Haram.

Why dont sunni muslims declare sucide bombings Haram?

Wahhabisim is also a offshoot of the Sunni Faith and seems to be responsible for the majority of of the violance carried out in the name of Islam, the Main sponser of Wahhabisim seems to be Saudi Arabia.

Fine you stand up against it but why dont all muslims do so, especially if it wants to live up being a religon of peace?