MWEB Uncapped ADSL - Official Q & A

[Lino]

God forbid someone makes a coherent, intelligent post on mybroadband.

BURN HIM AT THE STAKE!!!!!!!!!!!

Please this is the year 2010 we don't burn people at the stack anymore

 

[Lino]

Clearly you have not read and understood my post. I'm not sure how else to communicate it except by writing it in English as I have done.

I'll rephrase it here to help you though:

I am asking the MWeb rep. whether the poor performance (that is, the heavy shaping) experienced by some users during "out of office" times (that is, evenings, early mornings, weekends) is a direct result of the extent of misuse of the network by other users. That is, is the extent of misuse of the network "so bad" that evenings/early mornings/weekends are "the same" as office hours, and therefore subject to heavy shaping.

No matter how I read my original post, or this rephrasing of it, I cannot fathom how you and Linoman can interpret it as (1) me working for MWeb or (2) it being a joke or (3) me defending MWeb or (4) me trying to get a job offer from MWeb.

It is probably because with every single post of yours you see no fault with MWEB.

 

[remybfg10k]

Please this is the year 2010 we don't burn people at the stack anymore

Hehe, i hope not

 

[Tanya35]

It is probably because with every single post of yours you see no fault with MWEB.

As someone else said, he's sounding like a shill.

 

[MWEBHelp]

@MWeb

Users continue to report heavy shaping outside of business hours, before, during and after the SEACOM outage. On a number of occasions MWeb has posted details of the shaping policy. Most recently, a detailed description was provided by the Technical Manager.

Based on those descriptions of how the shaping works, would it be correct to conclude that the heavy shaping outside of business hours is a result of the misuse of the network by some users?

If enough users are running internet cafe's on "Home" accounts or are constantly bypassing the shaping, this would mean that the priority pool of bandwidth remains under heavy usage (mimicking normal "office hours" usage), even after hours and at weekends, thereby resulting in no reduction of shaping.

This could result in a negative feedback loop, whereby more and more users become frustrated at the poor performance of their lines, so they are "forced" to bypass shaping, thereby creating a greater burden on the network and reducing performance, etc.

Hi Sabrewolfy

Firstly to answer your question about abuse: I would say yes that the abuse definitely has a role to play in the amount of bandwidth that we can allocate to shaped P2P. This is an area that is getting a lot of my attention right now, both from the point of view of addressing the behaviour with the individuals in question and working with our networks team to find ways to close these holes without having a negative impact on the average user’s functionality.

In terms of bandwidth allocation and the question as to what shaping occurs outside business hours keep in mind that our network is consumer based, so the assumption that usage falls off sharply after business hours and only resumes again the following morning is not completely accurate. The curve tends to fall off gradually over the course of the evening and the increase in P2P allocation is structured to follow this curve as closely as possible.

Regarding congestion and slow speeds experienced by certain customers if these problems were occurring at a network level all of our customers would be having the same experience. This is clearly not the case and points back to the instances of DSLAM level congestion that we’ve been encountering recently. Customers having these problems need to make contact with our support staff and work through the issues so that we can investigate them fully and determine exactly where the problem lies.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

 

[Necuno]

dear mr mweb operations, it seems that we are still waiting for :

mr MWEB Operations,

1) please tell if we are going to see the "reworked t&c" that was discussed by mweb on thuesday 20/07/2010.
2) from your reply below a rational interpretation would be that using a seed box now and then without being hours at end on it is acceptable.
3) continues downloads by steam will this be flagged too ?

Good evening ladies and gents

I see there has been quite a lot of debate regarding "the call". Please note that I limit my posts to clarifying specific issues from time to time if I feel that it can add some value. I'm also not going to discuss the specifics of individual customers who have been contacted regarding abuse, this is a matter between MWEB and the customer so please do not expect me to respond to questions about what customer X did, or didn’t do.

I would like to clarify a few points based on recent comments and re-emphasize some of my previous comments.

There is a lot of speculation going on about whether we are looking at a gigabyte limit, or some other such arbitrary rule to determine who is 'abusive'. Let me state again, we are looking at behaviour over an extended period of time and we are considering factors such as:

· repeated incidents of long periods of uninterrupted downloading at high speeds.
· the use of various techniques which allow vast amounts of traffic to be transferred at line, or near line speeds for extended periods of time.
This includes vpns and tunnelled http traffic from commercial seedbox services (thanks Venificus for describing the methods used by these services earlier).

Customers found to be making extensive use of ‘unshaping techniques’ will not be given a second chance.
These are the actions of an Internet savvy user who has gone to some lengths to optimize their downloading experience, not someone who stumbled on a faster way to download by pure chance.
These users are having a very real impact on the integrity of the network and service delivery to the vast majority of our customers is the first priority here.

This is not a process that is going to affect normal reasonable Internet users. The handful of people being affected by this know that they are pushing the envelope trying to continuously download as much as possible, as fast as possible. This isn’t what our shaped product was designed for and we quite simply cannot allow it be used in this way.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

and :

Good evening ladies and gents

................
This is not a process that is going to affect normal reasonable Internet users.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

Just explain the above. Does that mean the norm, as was many times before advertised by MWEB, E-mails, browsing and the "occasional" download? Fact is what you say, advertise and do are very different ambiguous and very unclear. Just say you cannot seem to deliver what you promise.
regards people using means to bypass your shaping you have a point. Thus block those systems not the user. It is obvious that people will use P2P, news servers and some other means to get the maximum benefit from the system they purchase. To come with crap like you ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DOWNLOAD 24/7 and YOU ADVERTISE "ALL THE DATA YOU NEED" That is just plain stupid, and you know it. You stuffed up and cannot deliver it seems. Now you come with all this Draconian Shiite you want to enforce. Just alter your products and we will choose our ISP's accordingly.

Get real! IN the beginning uncapped users will enjoy the Internet more as they experience what they could never before. Thus later the fad will wear off and data usage should reduce. You should not run your business concept on that hope as you have to ass-sume that every user will maximize their benefit. As long as they do not crook and bypass your safeguards (whatever that may be) keep your toys in your cot.

and :

Kindly provide us with a amount considered 'fair usage'
Or can you not do this without violating your sacred 'uncapped' statements
I was told if you average 250gig+ over three months you will be flagged

and :

Good evening ladies and gents

I see there has been quite a lot of debate regarding "the call". Please note that I limit my posts to clarifying specific issues from time to time if I feel that it can add some value. I'm also not going to discuss the specifics of individual customers who have been contacted regarding abuse, this is a matter between MWEB and the customer so please do not expect me to respond to questions about what customer X did, or didn’t do.

I would like to clarify a few points based on recent comments and re-emphasize some of my previous comments.

There is a lot of speculation going on about whether we are looking at a gigabyte limit, or some other such arbitrary rule to determine who is 'abusive'. Let me state again, we are looking at behaviour over an extended period of time and we are considering factors such as:

· repeated incidents of long periods of uninterrupted downloading at high speeds.
· the use of various techniques which allow vast amounts of traffic to be transferred at line, or near line speeds for extended periods of time.
This includes vpns and tunnelled http traffic from commercial seedbox services (thanks Venificus for describing the methods used by these services earlier).

Customers found to be making extensive use of ‘unshaping techniques’ will not be given a second chance.
These are the actions of an Internet savvy user who has gone to some lengths to optimize their downloading experience, not someone who stumbled on a faster way to download by pure chance.
These users are having a very real impact on the integrity of the network and service delivery to the vast majority of our customers is the first priority here.

This is not a process that is going to affect normal reasonable Internet users. The handful of people being affected by this know that they are pushing the envelope trying to continuously download as much as possible, as fast as possible. This isn’t what our shaped product was designed for and we quite simply cannot allow it be used in this way.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

*Going to ask this again to see if I get a reponse

Thanks for atleast trying to keep your users up to date on the forums, I for one appreciate it a lot.

I do have a very important question that I would like to get some clarity on and a straight answer would be much appreciated.

Will using Rapidshare/Megaupload/Megashares/Hotfile etc. mostly after hours(7pm-7am) be considered abuse as is indicated in the bolded part above? These services are very obviously shaped by mweb to nothing during the day so I would assume since you do this that using these services will not be considered abuse?

Would doing 150gb-300gb MAX per month with this method get a person into a position where they would get "The Call"?

It's a little frustrating not knowing exactly what is allowed and what not.

 

[MWEBHelp]

@Necuno

I feel that much of what you’re asking here has been covered by my previous posts, however let me address your 3 main questions directly:

1. The abuse process being implemented is sufficiently covered by the current terms and conditions and I’m not aware of any discussion regarding the reworking of these – perhaps you could direct me to the conversation you’re referring to?
2. Rather than answer your question, let me give you my assurance that the traffic patterns this type of activity generates are very easy to distinguish from normal usage and if it gets noticed it will be addressed.
3. I doubt that steam would be generating enough activity over the long haul to raise any alarms, however if you’d like some peace of mind on this you can forward us your contact details in a PM and I will look into it.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

 

[Necuno]

@Necuno

I feel that much of what you’re asking here has been covered by my previous posts, however let me address your 3 main questions directly:

1. The abuse process being implemented is sufficiently covered by the current terms and conditions and I’m not aware of any discussion regarding the reworking of these – perhaps you could direct me to the conversation you’re referring to?
2. Rather than answer your question, let me give you my assurance that the traffic patterns this type of activity generates are very easy to distinguish from normal usage and if it gets noticed it will be addressed.
3. I doubt that steam would be generating enough activity over the long haul to raise any alarms, however if you’d like some peace of mind on this you can forward us your contact details in a PM and I will look into it.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

thanks.

i clearly remember you posting that mweb was looking at clarifying the t&c for the layman which out of the many posts i can't find.

however my interpretation of what you said in your previous reply still haven't been answered, but only as we will catch you. i suppose i will have to be "happy" with that reply then.

as for the steam, well yesterday alone via steam i got a game which took about ±6 to 7 hours of continues downloading. trust me with enough steam games and not even a lot i can easily setup a 24 hr queue.

this also excludes the fact that for example some mmo's content patches or just before the next expansion comes out are large and easily weighs in at 2+ gigs. or what if you buy a game digital like age of conan and have to download 15+ gigs of client ?

still no exact clarity on how long is long. i've saved the questions so it can be posted till it's properly answered.

mr MWEB Operations,

1) please tell if we are going to see the "reworked t&c" that was discussed by mweb on thuesday 20/07/2010.
2) from your reply below a rational interpretation would be that using a seed box now and then without being hours at end on it is acceptable.
3) continues downloads by steam will this be flagged too ?

Good evening ladies and gents

I see there has been quite a lot of debate regarding "the call". Please note that I limit my posts to clarifying specific issues from time to time if I feel that it can add some value. I'm also not going to discuss the specifics of individual customers who have been contacted regarding abuse, this is a matter between MWEB and the customer so please do not expect me to respond to questions about what customer X did, or didn’t do.

I would like to clarify a few points based on recent comments and re-emphasize some of my previous comments.

There is a lot of speculation going on about whether we are looking at a gigabyte limit, or some other such arbitrary rule to determine who is 'abusive'. Let me state again, we are looking at behaviour over an extended period of time and we are considering factors such as:

· repeated incidents of long periods of uninterrupted downloading at high speeds.
· the use of various techniques which allow vast amounts of traffic to be transferred at line, or near line speeds for extended periods of time.
This includes vpns and tunnelled http traffic from commercial seedbox services (thanks Venificus for describing the methods used by these services earlier).

Customers found to be making extensive use of ‘unshaping techniques’ will not be given a second chance.
These are the actions of an Internet savvy user who has gone to some lengths to optimize their downloading experience, not someone who stumbled on a faster way to download by pure chance.
These users are having a very real impact on the integrity of the network and service delivery to the vast majority of our customers is the first priority here.

This is not a process that is going to affect normal reasonable Internet users. The handful of people being affected by this know that they are pushing the envelope trying to continuously download as much as possible, as fast as possible. This isn’t what our shaped product was designed for and we quite simply cannot allow it be used in this way.

Kind Regards
MWEB Operations (Tech Manager)

 

[drukkie]

At mweb rep....
Just a quick one...last month i was able to do 15GB a day easily...8 GB before 8(1GB/h at full speed 4MB line) a bit shaped during office hours and the rest after 9:00pm.
nowadays i get 5GB if i'm lucky....is this part due to SEACOM(Since it happened after outage) or is it due to congestion/people bypassing shaping etc?
fanks man!

PS
Any news on the upgrade of the news servers?

 

[MWEBHelp]

thanks.

as for the steam, well yesterday alone via steam i got a game which took about ±6 to 7 hours of continues downloading. trust me with enough steam games and not even a lot i can easily setup a 24 hr queue.

this also excludes the fact that for example some mmo's content patches or just before the next expansion comes out are large and easily weighs in at 2+ gigs. or what if you buy a game digital like age of conan and have to download 15+ gigs of client ?

still no exact clarity on how long is long. i've saved the questions so it can be posted till it's properly answered.

Please understand questions asking me to quantify and in effect define a neat set of rules that everyone can follow to stay under the radar will not be answered.

The behaviour of everyone flagged as in contravention of the AUP so far was looked at over an extended period of time and numerous factors were taken into account in determining the course of action followed.
If we were to quantify this with a set of measureable statistics we would effectively be providing guidelines to anyone wishing to push the envelope on how not to get noticed.

Regarding your steam usage. I'm still not hearing anything here that should really raise any alarms, I imagine that you don't purchase 15+ gigs of content on a daily basis?

I would still like to take this offline with you though and take a look at some traffic so that I can get a clear understanding of how Steam delivers the content to you.

 

[MWEBHelp]

At mweb rep....
Just a quick one...last month i was able to do 15GB a day easily...8 GB before 8(1GB/h at full speed 4MB line) a bit shaped during office hours and the rest after 9:00pm.
nowadays i get 5GB if i'm lucky....is this part due to SEACOM(Since it happened after outage) or is it due to congestion/people bypassing shaping etc?
fanks man!

PS
Any news on the upgrade of the news servers?

Hi drukkie

Please PM me your ADSL line number and user name and we will check if there is any congestion on your exchange.


Kind Regards
MWEB Operations

 

[Necuno]

Please understand questions asking me to quantify and in effect define a neat set of rules that everyone can follow to stay under the radar will not be answered.

The behaviour of everyone flagged as in contravention of the AUP so far was looked at over an extended period of time and numerous factors were taken into account in determining the course of action followed.
If we were to quantify this with a set of measureable statistics we would effectively be providing guidelines to anyone wishing to push the envelope on how not to get noticed.

Regarding your steam usage. I'm still not hearing anything here that should really raise any alarms, I imagine that you don't purchase 15+ gigs of content on a daily basis?

I would still like to take this offline with you though and take a look at some traffic so that I can get a clear understanding of how Steam delivers the content to you.

i see and thanks for the response.

i'd still use my seedbox with steam, just in such a fashion that it doesn't deplete the pool or are at max out line speed or "too long". i keep my total usage reasonable and low during the week, but more over the weekends; not like i push 250gig+ to get everything imaginable out there.

you'ed excuse me if i'm bit reluctant to just come and play with you so we can analyse my traffic due to fact that i feel like you guys just want to give everyone the boot because of some other users needing to backup the internet.

 

[Hydrofire]

Please understand questions asking me to quantify and in effect define a neat set of rules that everyone can follow to stay under the radar will not be answered.

The behaviour of everyone flagged as in contravention of the AUP so far was looked at over an extended period of time and numerous factors were taken into account in determining the course of action followed.
If we were to quantify this with a set of measureable statistics we would effectively be providing guidelines to anyone wishing to push the envelope on how not to get noticed.

Translation: Mweb reserves the right to review usage from time to time and summarily boot the top users based on an arbitrary set of behavioral criteria defined as "abusive" in order to make an example of them and thereby incentivise the rest of the user population to self-regulate their usage to avoid a similar fate. Due to the varying and arbitrary nature of these criteria they will not be clearly defined. Keeping them vague allows Mweb to pull this stunt at any time when they need to relieve pressure on the network and the uncertainty causes power-downloaders who are going to curb their usage to err on the side of caution over-compensate.

I am a heavy user who uses a download source for speed and convenience. I haven't received "the call" this time around, but I have reacted by immediately hitting the breaks on all downloads instead of doing the usual 15Gb a day (avg). Problem solved for Mweb! But should I be adjusting my behavior to suit them in order to keep my account? Or should I react to this by withdrawing my customer loyalty and looking elsewhere?

 

[chainedfly2002]

@Mweb rep
Hi just want to know, will those who use methods to bypass the shaping, but who are on a 384 line and package also get the call? or is the calls just limited to those on the 4Meg spectrum?

 

[MWEBHelp]

@Mweb rep
Hi just want to know, will those who use methods to bypass the shaping, but who are on a 384 line and package also get the call? or is the calls just limited to those on the 4Meg spectrum?

yes this will be addressed across all product speeds.

 

[Veneficus]

I use steam and can't really say that it will be a major issue
sure you could buy enough games over it to max out a line for a month
but what will that be costing you at the end of the day

lets say average game price on steam is $10 (from what i could pick up it is more)
and lets make average size 5GB per game (most games on there is allot less)

that means to get 250+GB of data you will need to buy 50 games

at exchange rate of R7 to the dollar that's R3500

now this does not take into account the the large majority of the games on steam is less than 5GB each and that allot of them is over $20

so can't really see steam being a major issue

 

[Kosmik]

yes this will be addressed across all product speeds.

Good. People seem to think that it's ok to bypass at lower speeds, you are still affecting the global pool!

 

[Necuno]

I use steam and can't really say that it will be a major issue
sure you could buy enough games over it to max out a line for a month
but what will that be costing you at the end of the day

lets say average game price on steam is $10 (from what i could pick up it is more)
and lets make average size 5GB per game (most games on there is allot less)

that means to get 250+GB of data you will need to buy 50 games

at exchange rate of R7 to the dollar that's R3500

now this does not take into account the the large majority of the games on steam is less than 5GB each and that allot of them is over $20

so can't really see steam being a major issue

there is a lot of specials of which you can get a lot of games for very good pricing. i have about over 100 games in my profile of which i've only installed 16. however your 5 gig size average is a bit outdated for the latest releases as most of them are 7 to 15 gigs.

*sensitivity alert*

no rational person is going to download it all at one shot unless there is some fail some where. it was just an example of continues streaming traffic.

 

[killadoob]

Yea necuno there is only one way to download 24/7 bud and that is the pirate way.

I wonder if someone could come up with something that could run 24/7 all month long and does not involved piracy? .

 

[vash87]

im on the 4meg uncapped package. i only signed on a few days ago and speeds were ok. today http downloads are running at a combined speed of about 9kBps.. thats hardly downloading at all which suprises me since this is not p2p or torrents. is this normal during office hours?