genetic
Honorary Master
Uhmm, yeah maybe you need to move out of living in 2011, unless you want to keep developing retro games.
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Uhmm, yeah maybe you need to move out of living in 2011, unless you want to keep developing retro games.
wizardofid
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We have had this argument before, about DX12 I am not going into it again, it was released in early 2016, we are nearly 3 years later.The more things change the more they stay the same.DX12 game list is still rather lack luster and weak to say the least.
No windows 10 is the last version to use the windows name, "polaris" is the next windows, I am very well aware of what is going on in the windows development, thank you very much.
No one has hinted at a single reason why Windows 10 should be upgraded to. ?
genetic
Honorary Master
We've established it's not for you.
It's the same reason I won't be upgrading my retro hardware either.
wizardofid
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Unity and Unreal, and crytek still uses and majority support for DX11.Additionally there is almost ZERO difference between DX12 and DX11, DX12 rendering pipeline is more efficient, Physically based rendering and shaders is pretty much exactly the same with the exception of the pipeline changes in fact content rendered with PBR in DX11 and DX12 is going to look exactly the same.
Just to show how little you grasp about shaders and rendering, here is the difference between DX9 and DX11 only addition that is different with the screenshots is well PBR.
What makes games standout between between DX versions is the rendering improvements added specifically to the development software volmetric lightmapping, deferred rending ect. "Retro" games you are kidding, that means EVERY SINGLE PS4 and Xbox ONE game is retro, as they still use DX11. In fact DX12 is a incremental update
rendering pipeline and graphics is exactly the same, bar DX12 being more efficient.
While you are trying to look cute, you are failing miserably....
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Johnatan56
Honorary Master
You do realize that Microsoft has tons of ventures into different areas, just because they are testing Polaris, doesn't mean it's going to replace Windows, and it's definitely not going to do so within the next 5 years.
In regards to DX12, any Unreal Engine 4 games will support it if the game started development after ~July 2017. Pretty much all modern EA Games support it. Dota 2 supports Vulkan instead (which I am quite happy about). Again, most games will have DX11 support, a large part of the market is there, why would you alienate/lock out a large part of your user base?
If W7 is enough for you, then there is no reason to upgrade, why should we have to convince you to upgrade if what you have now works?
In regards to why I advocate W10 instead of W7 if it's a new install for "power users":
- virtual desktops. Really quite useful to separate workflow
- compressed memory. Really can't tout this feature enough for lower end devices. Do note something like CompactGUI for HDD compression without actually impacting performance (sometimes even improving it)
- the game DVR mode is actually pretty cool. Can check my last hour of gaming and cut out the snippets I like
- scrolling without selecting the window (W7, I suggest using display fusion)
- extending the taskbar with start menu across screens (again, recommend display fusion for windows 7)
- explorer search can search file contents
- I have never had a crash on Windows 10 bar twice where it was the Nvidia driver messing with the Adobe Suite (known bug at the time), not even explorer, have had it on Windows 7.
- 10 is actually noticeably faster than 7 on the same hardware, especially such things as booting.
Among a host of other things whereby I'd have to go back to a Windows 7 machine to note the difference.
I also like the taskbar change in terms of design, I like the flat look more.
vs
(Don't have a W7 machine to screenshot with, so sorry for the low res. Oh, and another feature of W10, better DPI scaling, plus system support for it if the app doesn't.
In regards to my W10 start icon, yeah, using Start10. One of the worst features of W10 > that start menu.)
EDIT:
In regards to your "incremental" update, the entire point of DX12 is the performance increase, especially for CPU limited machines, so you can add more visual gimmicks.
Most games are not CPU bottlenecked or already having "good enough" performance, that's why you only see DX12 properly implemented in games like the newer Tomb Raiders that are visually demanding. Why would you add it in games like e.g. League of Legends when you already have more than enough performance for a toaster to be able to run it?
EDIT:
and one of the biggest problems is due to keeping DX11 support, many games add DX12 later, so it's an afterthought to say they have DX12 rather than a proper optimization addition. Also take into account that Nvidia doesn't really have much of a gain in DX12 due to how they implemented optimizations for higher level API calls, with AMD usually having way better improvements as their architecture is more designed for low-level calls.
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genetic
Honorary Master
Of course they will - those engines are ancient.
wizardofid
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Name a single commercial available engine that any person can purchase that is better.....
In fact I will help you out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_game_engines
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
Btw, WoW supports DX12 since July.
https://www.extremetech.com/gaming/273923-benchmarking-world-of-warcrafts-directx-12-support
https://wccftech.com/wow-dx12-battle-for-azeroth/
The main reason, if you can find the forum post (which I can't seem to find anymore) is that they want to improve the visuals, but are starting to max out the draw calls, which is what the DX12 API allows you to bypass.
So as we go along, DX12 will become more and more important as people's graphics cards improve while CPU single-core scaling doesn't really.
https://www.anandtech.com/show/11223/quick-look-vulkan-3dmark-api-overhead
WoW's implementation is not a performance improvement for it, since the engine needs to be overhauled to take proper advantage of it and they're going to do it slowly, making sure to keep DX11 support so as not to lose their gamer base, one of WoW's best features is that it can run on a potato.
EDIT:
And what I find sad is that one of DX12's most touted features has seen pretty much no adoption.
The demo showed a boost in game frame rates used Epic Games' Unreal Engine 4 with a new and experimental feature called heterogeneous multiadapter, which allows a PC running the engine with DirectX 12 to split the rendering workload between an NVIDIA graphics card and Intel's integrated graphics chip.
https://www.windowscentral.com/new-...game-frame-rates-and-even-shows-humans-crying
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Hehehe...hehehe...hehehe....
Still in beta. You may be aware how many 'great' ideas had been dropped in Windows 10. By example Homegroup, very recently.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
I haven't actually used Homegroup in years, it's a legacy feature that was pretty much useless/completely outdated. Hadn't even set it up/had any device connect to it since about 2014 (I think that's the year, it was when the "owner" of my homegroup died).
Windows 10:
check the share with section in regards to people.
I haven't set that up though, I just use the network tab and have shared folders or just use \\computer-name\.
They tried to remove paint for paint3d, which rightly caused a huge outcry as paint3d is quite bloated compared. I use paint.net instead though.
You know how many great features Windows 10 added? So many, just me taking that screenshot for example of a section of my screen.
Of course, you're hung up about useless features that are removed rather than about the things that get added.
wizardofid
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If you look at the above post I said crytek when referring to cry engine its one and the same, nor is it better, its a toss up between unity and unreal, both have their strengths and weaknesses, pending on what you are doing, developers favor unity for mobile platform as it just that good, unreal is fair bit faster when it comes to 3d, unity wins with regards to development environment, unreal wins on flexibility. Unreal loses with regards to royalties.Unity has a much lower development hardware requirement.
Cryengine is quite basic compared to unity and unreal, nor is cryengine as open as I would have liked.
Look my developer upgraded our engine to dx11 specifically as dx12 offered no real benefit bar improved pipeline its target audience still majority favors windows 7, steam survey at the time showed higher windows 7 users in general and higher dx11 capable hardware.
Newer isn't always better especially with regards to dx12 there is no graphical advancement, windows 7 is quite capable on running dx12, Microsoft just purposely decided not to support windows 7 to force people to adopt windows 10 even make it free, and that backfired quite badly. On PC windows 10 took quite awhile to garner the support and numbers, and so far the updates in the news are plagued by complaints and issues.
Windows 7 development environment is pretty darn stable cross app software just works, and older essential apps, I have lots of small apps which will cease to work, meaning reinvention of workflow costly new apps.My texturing app was $400.00.Windows 10 has no practical advantage for me, nor am I exclusive in preference for windows 7.
Some people can't seem to grasp that there virtually no rendering difference between dx11 and dx12 and as long as consoles still require dx11, dx12 isn't going to make any sort of economical sense for any developer. So honestly hailing the arrival of dx12 and windows 10 as the best thing since slice bread is stupid and rather presumptuous as well. Hardware requirements as benefit has stabilised at least which is a good thing at least and far out weights software advancements in general
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Johnatan56
Honorary Master
So you basically ignored my post why one would use W10 from earlier, then basically re-iterated why I said DX12 isn't that huge in terms of support. That's nice.
And all of your W7 apps will work on W10, so not sure why you're bringing that up.
W10 is not being upgraded to because there's really no need for a majority of gamers, W7 runs everything well enough anyways.
Not sure how W10 backfired by making the upgrade free? It was more to do with how they implemented it.
A majority are moving to W10, guessing this is because there are finally CPU's worth upgrading to/SSD prices are dropping. You should start seeing more DX12 games now.
In regards to your texturing, are you maxing out your memory? W10 should help with that. If you're not, then not sure why you mention it as it's irrelevant.
And again, consoles don't require DX11, the Xbox One supports DX12.
Which is a 2017 game that was built with proper DX12 support.
Not sure if the PS4 supports DX12, think they probably use an implementation of Vulkan.
Again, very few games will require DX12, they just don't have the visuals that require it or the pay-off to implement it.
I love this quote of yours, I never said that. I said that if W7 works for you, stay with it, but I wouldn't recommend it for a fresh install, just move on to W10 as it brings so many improvements with very few drawbacks (only ones I can think of is the start menu, I use Start10, and the settings panel, which is getting better as they're slowly transferring features over).
Your complaints in regards to updates have been covered, there are now very few complaints of W10 randomly restarting to update, so it's respecting active hours (actually I have an update waiting right now that popped up saying it's asking whether I want to update now or later), with W7 it had the same problem of if I go afk and the update prompt shows up that it restarts the machine.
Your comment in regards to hardware requirements, W10 will have a better experience than W7 on lower end hardware, with W10 using less system resources and supporting memory compression.
There is really no reason to recommend W7 over W10 anymore unless it's an old person that refuses to learn a new UI, and tbh, for most use cases of older people or people who don't game, I'd rather give them a Linux distro.
Moosedrool
Honorary Master
I dunno if I'm blind or not that involved in gaming anymore but I can't see a difference at all.
I pointed out bul$%it in your posting, and now you tell me that Homegroup is a legacy. Legacy of XP? .LOL. Perhaps I should list features which first time appeared in Windows 10 and are not anymore. It is a waste of time, a new unfinished version of Win10 is coming out next month, I noticed already increased MS propaganda.
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
The video? The point is the higher FPS. Where DX12 shines is a weak CPU paired with a good GPU. By weak, it's more along the lines of a bottle-necked CPU.
The problem is that most DX12 implementations are an after thought rather than a proper implementation of it, which often leads to worse performance (check recent rants on BF V DX12 micro stuttering). Sniper Elite 4 is one where it's actually properly implemented.
The Sniper Elite 4 video shows off that for the same scene, if properly implemented, it can increase performance substantially. Just look at this scene with the same fps but vastly differing CPU utilization wherein there are a ton of draw calls.
That's one of the most extreme examples, and that's only for a second, but the DX12 results are consistently better than the DX11 ones, from anywhere between extremes of 7%-50% (most high end CPU will have ~5% if properly implemented). And that is running an Xeon E3-1231 v3, which is about a i7 4790, so quite high end. That difference would increase with lower end CPU's. (EDIT: Do note the CPU would have to be strong enough for the game to run properly to begin with. Ray Tracing for an example will be DX12/Vulcan only, unless backported to the DX11 API)
Again, for a vast majority of games, DX11 performance is more than sufficient, the game already delivers great fps even in demanding scenes, just with DX12 you can add more without impacting the performance. Most of the time it isn't worth the extra development budget though.
You mean all the BS that you post? Homegroup is legacy, I don't understand why you're arguing it, there are other things baked into Windows that are better than homegroup. Even in W7 homegroup is kind of useless/outdated.
And W10 will never be finished, that's the point, I even linked you product centric vs service centric, now stop with your utter unsubstantiated BS posts.
And feel free to post all the removed W10 features, https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/planning/windows-10-1803-removed-features is an example of ones removed in 1803, showing that they either implemented better alternatives or, if you look at older ones, that they removed outdated features that bring security vulnerabilities like the one that was in regards to connecting to a device over the network for legacy devices (forgot the protocol's name right now, I'm sure you can supply it as you know all the features that W10 removed).
EDIT: SMB 1.0: https://www.thewindowsclub.com/disable-smb1-windows
EDIT2:
An interesting video from May 2017, this is more about the Ryzen CPU but relevant to DX12
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wizardofid
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Our upgrade took place about 1/12 years ago have a look at the result from then it was 50/50 and large portion still on DX11, 16% increase since then is rather slow, and I took a general stab, it wasn't directed at you personally.
I am not recommending Windows 7 over 10, nor am I advising the use of it over it, I am pointing out I specifically don't have a need for it nor am I alone in my development enviroment.
Lots of apps that I use are still apps back from XP and 32bit, there simply isn't better or faster apps to deal with quick in and out modeling/texturing.My average ram use, with Softimage open, photoshop, development software, fragmotion, gimp is close to 4.5gigs physical ram, I don't have an SSD which results in a bit of a lag, planning on getting one soon, which should drastically improve memory writes, windows 10 isn't going to do memory writes any faster then it would in windows 7, I don't know where you get that idea.
I don't have windows 10, don't need windows 10 nor do I want it, you are just going to have to deal with it.
Sucks for porn...
Hamish McPanji
Honorary Master
You download the stuff, and view it in quick view pro or paint shop Pro. Additional advantage is you don't know what kindof porn it is, so you will get a surprise.
How the heck did a browser war propoganda thread become a graphics.....something thread?
Johnatan56
Honorary Master
You're using 4.5GB because it's dumping everything to your page file.
I think I've linked W10's memory compression quite a few times: https://www.itprotoday.com/windows-10/understand-windows-10-memory-compression for a bit of a different link, and that should actually help speed stuff up for you as it would not have to read as much from the pagefile/dump as often.
Just opened a 4k raw image in photoshop that I pulled off the net, I don't have any on this machine as I delete instantly after I'm done with it/move to external.
That's one raw 4k image, and often enough I open 3 in lightroom for HDR. Again, you're probably working with smaller 1080p images that are already compressed (e.g. JPEG).
And I quite rarely edit 4k images raw, most of the time it's running a ton of 4k images through a batch process for web use, so compression to ~50-250KB depending, which can completely decimate memory. Using something like Adobe premiere near always hits at least 4GB of RAM usage for me exporting at 1080p for web.
Back when I was at 8GB of RAM, I was constantly having it compress memory, with 16GB I don't really have it anymore though.
A measly 890MB compressed. But imagine that was on a lower end machine, or when if I spin up my docker instance, having that as compressed memory would make everything smoother as it wouldn't have to read from the page file, forcing less spin-ups on the HDD (though I have an SSD, but that would still be slower than direct memory access).
https://lifehacker.com/why-is-windows-10s-system-process-using-so-much-ram-1725076206
Another article on it.
Cause lots of threads currently on W10 vs W7 vs Linux recently, think we might have to ask mods to split it out as it is OT.
