Official Crystal Web ADSL performance feedback thread Part 2...

[quovadis]

That part of our Ts and Cs hasn't even been built yet to automate. So not in effect yet. It relates to deprioritisation of the accounts and suspension. It's not related to the previous thread which was just general network management. Once the automations for this are built and this comes into effect, we'll be informing all customers with the relevant notice of the enforcement of the changes.

Please answer my question though. It's a term added to your terms and conditions at some point. As that paragraph stands when was it added and were your customers notified?

 

[Crystal Web]

Please answer my question though. It's a term added to your terms and conditions at some point. As that paragraph stands when was it added and were your customers notified?

It was amended 72 hours ago iirc. No notice was yet sent, as it doesn't impact services to anyone and is not in force yet, but new customers will be bound by such terms. Existing customers will be notified of the change once enforcement is scheduled to take place, with notice of such a change as per the terms required.

 

[quovadis]

It was amended 72 hours ago. No notice was yet sent, as it doesn't impact services to anyone and is not in force yet, but new customers will be bound by such terms. Existing customers will be notified of the change once enforcement is scheduled to take place, with notice of such a change as per the terms required.

How can it not be in force if it is IN your terms and conditions which governs the relationship between your company and your customers? How does a customer know what is enforced and what isn't ? In addition to this it was enforced against one of your customers as per a previous thread? So are you enforcing it selectively?

 

[whatwhat]

Play Store app

Hello

So I've finished off my app, here is the link to it on the Play Store

Just to re-iterate some points (that are also mentioned on the app page)
- This is not an official CW app
- They do not support/care about this and they can stop it from working at anytime
- I developed it to monitor my business capped account, let me know if you have hassles with your account type
- Devices with encrypted disk systems (like the Nexus 6) has some sluggish behavior
- Your account details are stored encrypted on the device, and it is only sent to the CW servers

If you have any ideas or suggestions, let me know.

 

[Deleted member 83147]

How can it not be in force if it is IN your terms and conditions which governs the relationship between your company and your customers? How does a customer know what is enforced and what isn't ? In addition to this it was enforced against one of your customers as per a previous thread? So are you enforcing it selectively?

I may be wrong, but as the updated T&Cs it was only added 72 hours ago and that thread is 72+ hours old, the bypass shaping clause wouldn't even explicitly have applied to him. So when she signed on there was no explicit mention of shaping "torrent to HTTP" services. Once again, I may be wrong. I have read the entire thread so I have a good understanding of what went down.

CW could have still cover the shaping as "general network management"

 

[Crystal Web]

How can it not be in force if it is IN your terms and conditions which governs the relationship between your company and your customers? How does a customer know what is enforced and what isn't ? In addition to this it was enforced against one of your customers as per a previous thread? So are you enforcing it selectively?

We choose what to enforce case by case, but we reserve the right to do so based on the terms. Existing customers haven't agreed to those terms, hence there being no enforcement of them yet at all. Some customers we, likewise, provide leeway to on certain aspects as well. By the nature of our agreement, the fact that no notice has been served on existing customers means that it is not in force yet on any existing customers, and cannot be. It is for new customers signing up though as those are the terms they agree to.

In the above case, it had nothing to do with the customer in question. His account was not deprioritised, and he has not been served with 24 hours to rectify anything whatsoever.

I am not rehashing that thread in here now. The answer is quite simple. Those terms are not in force for existing customers. We do not have those automations in place. When it comes time to enforce them, such notice will be served with sufficient time.

 

[quovadis]

- Your account details are stored encrypted on the device, and it is only sent to the CW servers

Which is unencrypted currently?

 

[Deleted member 83147]

Hello

So I've finished off my app, here is the link to it on the Play Store

Just to re-iterate some points (that are also mentioned on the app page)
- This is not an official CW app
- They do not support/care about this and they can stop it from working at anytime
- I developed it to monitor my business capped account, let me know if you have hassles with your account type
- Devices with encrypted disk systems (like the Nexus 6) has some sluggish behavior
- Your account details are stored encrypted on the device, and it is only sent to the CW servers

If you have any ideas or suggestions, let me know.

Great work, will try it for my home capped account

 

[Crystal Web]

- This is not an official CW app
- They do not support/care about this and they can stop it from working at anytime.

We do appreciate the work you've done here. I think Paul chatted with you about this. We are making some changes to the endpoints which may break this, which is why we're reluctant to sanction it in any way. We do however appreciate the work gone into this.

We will be releasing our apps as the portals release now too. And we'll be standardising on the portals now, hence the change of endpoints, as the current portals are just temp resources.

 

[quovadis]

We choose what to enforce case by case, but we reserve the right to do so based on the terms. Existing customers haven't agreed to those terms, hence there being no enforcement of them yet at all. Some customers we, likewise, provide leeway to on certain aspects as well. By the nature of our agreement, the fact that no notice has been served on existing customers means that it is not in force yet on any existing customers, and cannot be. It is for new customers signing up though as those are the terms they agree to.

In the above case, it had nothing to do with the customer in question. His account was not deprioritised, and he has not been served with 24 hours to rectify anything whatsoever.

I am not rehashing that thread in here now. The answer is quite simple. Those terms are not in force for existing customers. We do not have those automations in place. When it comes time to enforce them, such notice will be served with sufficient time.

You don't need automations to send a newsletter to your customers stating that modifications have been made to the terms and conditions which may or not affect them especially since you state in the terms and conditions that "While we will ordinarily give you at least 20 working days’ notice of any change by electronic mail, exceptional circumstances may require an immediate change made in our sole discretion"

So is that term also not enforced?

 

[Crystal Web]

You don't need automations to send a newsletter to your customers stating that modifications have been made to the terms and conditions which may or not affect them?

Which would be ridiculous. Makes sense to simply notify customers with the requisite notice when such terms are going to be enforced, that way there is no "hi, does this affect me?" bombardment by 90% of our customer base.

I will try to put it simply though as it seems there remains confusion: no notice has been served to existing customers. Therefore it does not apply to them. It can and only will apply to them once notice is served and the notice period lapses. It applies to new customers signing up. Once we send notice, after the notice period, those terms shall become enforceable.

 

[quovadis]

Which would be ridiculous. Makes sense to simply notify customers with the requisite notice when such terms are going to be enforced, that way there is no "hi, does this affect me?" bombardment by 90% of our customer base.

I will try to put it simply though as it seems there remains confusion: no notice has been served to existing customers. Therefore it does not apply to them. It can and only will apply to them once notice is served and the notice period lapses. It applies to new customers signing up. Once we send notice, after the notice period, those terms shall become enforceable.

In terms of the Consumer Protection Act suppliers are required by the act to provide consumers with prior written notice of clauses in agreements that may constitute a potential risk or liability to consumers. I am pretty sure that a service which will be throttled due to enforcement of aforementioned term is a risk ultimately. But OK it would seem acceptable to CW to:

1) Make unilateral changes to your terms and conditions.
2) State that even though they appear in the terms and conditions they are not enforced.
3) The terms will not apply to existing customers until such time as we deem them to be enforced and at such a stage we will notify the customers in contravention of our own notice terms.
4) Try avoid customer communication so as not to be bombarded with requests for clarity.

It's "Crystal" clear now.

 

[Crystal Web]

I should also point out that I've taken feedback from that thread on board, and it is guiding some changes we will be making. We may, depending on the outcome of some testing, become less strict on the services the customer in question was using. It carries a real risk though, as it could spike peak IPC demand if a horde of customers migrate to these services as a result. So it's a balancing act. The majority of the queries in that thread were also complete misunderstandings as well. Rather than offer one capped product, we offer a few, all with different performance aspects, explicitly explained. It gives you choice and some freedom to opt for the right product for your needs. It's these options that seem to create the hate, which is odd. In lieu of us offering an effective rate per GB of around 60c, we have some caveats - one of which is that some services are shaped. If it's not right for you, we offer less shaped capped, and completely unshaped capped as well.

 

[ghostR]

In terms of the Consumer Protection Act suppliers are required by the act to provide consumers with prior written notice of clauses in agreements that may constitute a potential risk or liability to consumers. I am pretty sure that a service which will be throttled due to enforcement of aforementioned term is a risk ultimately. But OK it would seem acceptable to CW to:

1) Make unilateral changes to your terms and conditions.
2) State that even though they appear in the terms and conditions they are not enforced.
3) The terms will not apply to existing customers until such time as we deem them to be enforced and at such a stage we will notify the customers in contravention of our own notice terms.
4) Try avoid customer communication so as not to be bombarded with requests for clarity.

It's "Crystal" clear now.

You're clutching at straws...

In terms of the Consumer Protection Act suppliers are required by the act to provide consumers with prior written notice of clauses in agreements that may constitute a potential risk or liability to consumers.

From what I understand, Crystal web will only send out notice too all clients when they enforce this rule and once the neccessary automation is done on their backbone, which I presume has not and will not come into effect until then and Crystal web will give sufficient notice to customers prior to enforcing this rule.

 

[quovadis]

You're clutching at straws...

Really? Not notifying your existing customers of material changes to terms is clutching at straws?

 

[Crystal Web]

In terms of the Consumer Protection Act suppliers are required by the act to provide consumers with prior written notice of clauses in agreements that may constitute a potential risk or liability to consumers. I am pretty sure that a service which will be throttled due to enforcement of aforementioned term is a risk ultimately. But OK it would seem acceptable to CW to:

1) Make unilateral changes to your terms and conditions.
2) State that even though they appear in the terms and conditions they are not enforced.
3) The terms will not apply to existing customers until such time as we deem them to be enforced and at such a stage we will notify the customers in contravention of our own notice terms.
4) Try avoid customer communication so as not to be bombarded with requests for clarity.

It's "Crystal" clear now.

By the very nature of our terms, those terms are not applicable to existing customers. No idea why CPA is now being thrown around. It does not apply to existing customers, simple as that. They can only apply once we serve notice as such. If you feel we are now enforcing this on anyone without due notice, and that the terms somehow apply to existing customers (which they cannot, and I am confirming as such repeatedly to you), then by all means, throw the CPA book at us, and report us.

What you're asking is that we send notice of changes that do not apply, and try to apply them earlier than even we wish to on anyone, simply because for some or other reason you seem mightily peeved off at us. I do not understand why you'd want us to do this. We have no intention of making these applicable to existing customers just yet, nor yet within the notice period either. What you're proposing is that we now enforce them earlier, or send notice that future notice may be served.

 

[ghostR]

Really? Not notifying your existing customers of material changes to terms is clutching at straws?

see my edit.

 

[Crystal Web]

Really? Not notifying your existing customers of material changes to terms is clutching at straws?

It is not a material change that applies to them. It can, and only applies once we send notice of such changes, after the notice period. That is how the terms work. We've made them incredibly fair in this respect to customers precisely so that we cannot unilaterally change anything without affording customers a chance to amend their relationship with us. Not serving notice in and of itself, means the terms cannot and will not be enforced on anyone who signed a different set of terms. I do not understand how this is an issue in your eyes. It's the fair way to apply changes to customers.

 

[quovadis]

I should also point out that I've taken feedback from that thread on board, and it is guiding some changes we will be making. We may, depending on the outcome of some testing, become less strict on the services the customer in question was using. It carries a real risk though, as it could spike peak IPC demand if a horde of customers migrate to these services as a result. So it's a balancing act. The majority of the queries in that thread were also complete misunderstandings as well. Rather than offer one capped product, we offer a few, all with different performance aspects, explicitly explained. It gives you choice and some freedom to opt for the right product for your needs. It's these options that seem to create the hate, which is odd. In lieu of us offering an effective rate per GB of around 60c, we have some caveats - one of which is that some services are shaped. If it's not right for you, we offer less shaped capped, and completely unshaped capped as well.

If you wish to take a stand against a customer making use of your terms and conditions then understand that you are just as bound by the conditions as the customer is. In addition to this I think it is prudent to note that if you offer a service or product that if there is a term and condition which is material to the product it should be included with the product description and not in a term and condition on another page even if the page is linked to by any means.

So the next inevitable question is - if I sign up for a Business Premium capped account (once your SSL is fixed) will I be subject to shaping based in any way whatsoever?

 

[Soulcode]

In terms of the Consumer Protection Act suppliers are required by the act to provide consumers with prior written notice of clauses in agreements that may constitute a potential risk or liability to consumers. I am pretty sure that a service which will be throttled due to enforcement of aforementioned term is a risk ultimately. But OK it would seem acceptable to CW to:

1) Make unilateral changes to your terms and conditions.
2) State that even though they appear in the terms and conditions they are not enforced.
3) The terms will not apply to existing customers until such time as we deem them to be enforced and at such a stage we will notify the customers in contravention of our own notice terms.
4) Try avoid customer communication so as not to be bombarded with requests for clarity.

It's "Crystal" clear now.

Mate, could I please have your banking details? I would like to donate money so you can buy some oxygen tanks, because I don't want to breathe the same air as you anymore.
An ISP finally comes around that offers a quality product, if you're willing to pay for it, but you and your cronies try to give the grief about anything you can think of.

Some people just want to watch the world burn.