Samsung Galaxy S2 or Iphone 4

[icyrus]

HAHAHAHAHA please dont tell me you see stock price as the world end user demands.

Besides Apple stock is US only, Samsung alone could buy up Apple and still smile all the way to the bank. You have any idea how large Samsung really is? If they where listed in the USA they would make Exxon look like a spaza shop.

Really? What is Samsung's annual net profit?

 

[undesign]

HAHAHAHAHA please dont tell me you see stock price as the world end user demands.

Besides Apple stock is US only, Samsung alone could buy up Apple and still smile all the way to the bank. You have any idea how large Samsung really is? If they where listed in the USA they would make Exxon look like a spaza shop.

My bad. I thought we were playing "logical fallacy".

Ps you don't think consumers' dollar vote is important?

Pss any links to Samsung's market share and profitability?

 

[mercurial]

/throws cat amongst the pidgeons

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...Q3-smartphone-market-Android-keeps-dominating

/runs away

 

[Elimentals]

My bad. I thought we were playing "logical fallacy".

Ps you don't think consumers' dollar vote is important?

Pss any links to Samsung's market share and profitability?

Ok lets explain then. Stock price is based on demand for the stock, sure it does factor in demand for products but that is not the only factor.

Stock price can for example be affected by the number of stock available. Say 2 companies of the same size and profit can have different stock prices based on the number available. Comp A can have say 1000 at the price of $10 and Comp B can have 500 at $20. It does not make Comp B more successful it just says there is a higher demand for them because there is less stock.

As for the numbers, we can only have those segments that is listed. Not all divisions are listed so we will not see income from the private and secondary companies. For Example they have Samsung Cars, Samsung Techwin that makes aircraft engines and parts (Like in Boeing and Airbus A380) as well as the normal Samsung Electronics. Oh and there is even a Samsung Retail chain in South Korea.

 

[greg0205]

Well if we look at end users in the PC market it seems clear what is the best strategy...

Erm... Sorry for arriving to class a little late as well as for contributing to the derail going on here, but that's one of the things I've learned to appreciate most about my Mac. Market share really means nothing to me, it doesn't affect my life in any what whatsoever... I do however spend a lot of time on my machine and I kinda like that everyone and his dog don't have a Mac.

There, I feel better now. So, back to the OS wars, you were saying...

 

[undesign]

Ok lets explain then. Stock price is based on demand for the stock, sure it does factor in demand for products but that is not the only factor.

Stock price can for example be affected by the number of stock available. Say 2 companies of the same size and profit can have different stock prices based on the number available. Comp A can have say 1000 at the price of $10 and Comp B can have 500 at $20. It does not make Comp B more successful it just says there is a higher demand for them because there is less stock.

As for the numbers, we can only have those segments that is listed. Not all divisions are listed so we will not see income from the private and secondary companies. For Example they have Samsung Cars, Samsung Techwin that makes aircraft engines and parts (Like in Boeing and Airbus A380) as well as the normal Samsung Electronics. Oh and there is even a Samsung Retail chain in South Korea.

Actually the value of any asset is the discounted future value of cash flow derived from that asset. In this case the cash flow is derived from sales of the company's product. From consumer spend and the profitability a company is able to derive from that. That, eventually, is THE driving force for a company's stock price.

The demand for stock is simply a function of the above value determination vs the current stock price and perceived prospects of future growth in income.

Re. Samsung - are you saying you can't substantiate your claims of their size?

Ps just to be sure, these exchanges are light-hearted banter, nothing too serious

 

[CoolBug]

So iPhone 4 then?

 

[Elimentals]

Actually the value of any asset is the discounted future value of cash flow derived from that asset. In this case the cash flow is derived from sales of the company's product. From consumer spend and the profitability a company is able to derive from that. That, eventually, is THE driving force for a company's stock price.

The demand for stock is simply a function of the above value determination vs the current stock price and perceived prospects of future growth in income.

So you saying the number of stock has nothing to do with the price? if that is the case why does the value drop when they spilt?

Re. Samsung - are you saying you can't substantiate your claims of their size?

Ps just to be sure, these exchanges are light-hearted banter, nothing too serious

I will not be able to substantiate the true reflection of their income As I have to get the income for all of the following:

SAMSUNG Corporation, Shilla Hotels and Resorts, SAMSUNG Securities, SAMSUNG Fine Chemicals SAMSUNG SDI, SI Corporation, SAMSUNG Electro-Mechanics, SAMSUNG Fire & Marine Insurance, SAMSUNG Engineering, SAMSUNG Electronics, SAMSUNG Techwin, Samsung Life Insurance, Cheil Industries, SAMSUNG Card, SAMSUNG Heavy Industries, Cheil Worldwide, Imarket Korea, Credu and Ace Digitech

Number of unlisted companies within the group : 59
Number of listed companies within the group : 19

Something that would be next to impossible for mere conversation sake as not all of them are listed. I can however point to say the Wiki

The Samsung Group (Korean: 삼성그룹 / Samseong Geurup / sam'sʌŋ gɯ'ɾup) is a South Korean multinational conglomerate corporation headquartered in Samsung Town, Seoul, South Korea. It comprises numerous international affiliated businesses, most of them united under the Samsung brand.

Notable Samsung Group industrial subsidiaries include Samsung Electronics (the world's largest information technology company measured by 2010 revenues), Samsung Heavy Industries (the world's second-largest shipbuilder measured by 2010 revenues), and Samsung Engineering and Samsung C&T (respectively the world's 35th- and 72nd-largest construction companies). Other notable subsidiaries include Samsung Life Insurance (the world's 14th-largest insurance company), Samsung Securities, Samsung SDS, Samsung Everland (the oldest theme park in South Korea), Cheil Worldwide (the world's 19th-largest advertising agency measured by 2010 revenues) and Shilla Hotel.

Samsung Group produces around a fifth of South Korea's total exports and its revenues are larger than many countries' GDP; in 2006, it would have been the world's 35th-largest economy. In many South Korean industries Samsung Group enjoys a monopoly position.[citation needed] The company has a powerful influence on South Korea's economic development, politics, media and culture, and has been a major driving force behind the "Miracle on the Han River". Many businesses today use Samsung's international success as a role model

And yes I know its light hearted conversation that is why I am not all up in arms about what this have to do with the OP

 

[MattyW]

Or not -

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporations_by_market_capitalization

And

Macs - 5% of home computing market, but 30% share of profit -

http://gigaom.com/apple/mac-lands-one-two-punch-against-pcs-in-profit-and-growth/

Excuse me if I am misunderstanding something but how can that possibly be a good thing??? Isn't that basically saying apple is overcharging you by about six times for exactly the same components that other manufacturers are selling?

 

[Fudzy]

Excuse me if I am misunderstanding something but how can that possibly be a good thing??? Isn't that basically saying apple is overcharging you by about six times for exactly the same components that other manufacturers are selling?

They're not though... We get ripped off here but in terms of the system you're getting you aren't paying that much more than the PC equivalent.

You're welcome to present your own cost comparison of course.

 

[Fudzy]

Actually, don't I've saved you the trouble. I used to think the same thing:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthr...aren-t-solely-responsible-for-the-high-prices

 

[Jola]

We get ripped off here but in terms of the system you're getting you aren't paying that much more than the PC equivalent.

Last time I checked you could do an equivalent PC for half the price.

Was 2-3 years ago, don't know if it has changed since.

I obviously went the PC route and haven't looked back.

 

[undesign]

So you saying the number of stock has nothing to do with the price? if that is the case why does the value drop when they spilt?

Not sure what you are on about. Number of stocks (shares) and the stock (share) price individually are irrelevant - it is about the market capitalisation i.e. price x number of shares. A company with one share of R1,000,000 = same market value as a company with 1,000,000 shares of R1. When I refer to price I obviously mean the price (value) of the company as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_capitalization

I will not be able to substantiate the true reflection of their income As I have to get the income for all of the following:

SAMSUNG Corporation, Shilla Hotels and Resorts, SAMSUNG Securities, SAMSUNG Fine Chemicals SAMSUNG SDI, SI Corporation, SAMSUNG Electro-Mechanics, SAMSUNG Fire & Marine Insurance, SAMSUNG Engineering, SAMSUNG Electronics, SAMSUNG Techwin, Samsung Life Insurance, Cheil Industries, SAMSUNG Card, SAMSUNG Heavy Industries, Cheil Worldwide, Imarket Korea, Credu and Ace Digitech

Number of unlisted companies within the group : 59
Number of listed companies within the group : 19

Something that would be next to impossible for mere conversation sake as not all of them are listed. I can however point to say the Wiki

If they are true subsidiaries they are legally required to consolidate their financial results into the listed holding company. So it should be fairly easy to verify.

Regardless, without any figures, I fail to see how you came to this conclusion by any means other than unsubstantiated guess work -

Besides Apple stock is US only, Samsung alone could buy up Apple and still smile all the way to the bank. You have any idea how large Samsung really is? If they where listed in the USA they would make Exxon look like a spaza shop.

And yes I know its light hearted conversation that is why I am not all up in arms about what this have to do with the OP

Great, I know you are a level-headed poster. I'm obliged to defend the non-geeks, you know the other 20% of MyBB and 99% of the world.

 

[undesign]

Excuse me if I am misunderstanding something but how can that possibly be a good thing??? Isn't that basically saying apple is overcharging you by about six times for exactly the same components that other manufacturers are selling?

Unfortunately the article is a bit vague, but it's a start -

http://www.macworld.com/article/150051/2010/03/apple_profit.html

Wondering why other computer makers suffer from Apple envy? Deutsche Bank may have an answer for you: its profits are higher—way higher—than any of its competitor.

According to a Business Insider article, the banking giant has aggregated numbers from the top ten PC makers in the world and determined that, while Apple only commands 7 percent of overall revenues in the PC market, its products account for 35 percent of the operating profits. (Operating profit represents the surplus generated by the difference between the sale price of a product and its cost; it doesn’t take into account things like taxes, interest payments, and depreciation.)

None of the other manufacturers on the list—which includes such giants as Dell, Hewlett-Packard, and Lenovo—comes even close to matching Apple’s five-to-one ratio between revenue and profit share, a fact which the article attributes to the fact that those companies need to pay a “Windows tax” in order to distribute Microsoft’s operating system installed on their products.

While the fact that hardware and software are tightly integrated in Apple’s platform undoubtedly affords them some economies of scale, however, one should also consider the fact that OS X doesn’t appear magically out of thin air. Apple needs to invest—and likely invest heavily—on developing and maintaining the operating system, and that’s not an inexpensive undertaking.

Apple’s success is probably due to a combination of factors, including a well-defined lineup of products with little overlap, the tight inventory control for which Tim Cook is famous, and the higher production quality that attracts buyers willing to pay a premium for what they perceive as superior craftsmanship.

This purchasing power makes Apple customers attractive to software developers, which might explain why the OS X software market is so vibrant despite a relatively small share of overall PC sales.

 

[Elimentals]

If they are true subsidiaries they are legally required to consolidate their financial results into the listed holding company. So it should be fairly easy to verify.

Regardless, without any figures, I fail to see how you came to this conclusion by any means other than unsubstantiated guess work -

True, but we still wont know what the actual bank balance looks like for all the subsidiaries as they not listed in the USA so they do not follow USGAAP and yes I was using a unsubstantiated guess.

Oh, was just looking at the Wiki's numbers

Samsung
Revenue US$ 220.1 billion (2010)
Net income US$ 21.2 billion (2010)
Total assets US$ 343.7 billion (2010)
Total equity US$ 141.1 billion (2010)

Apple
Revenue US$ 108.249 billion (FY 2011)
Operating income US$ 33.790 billion (FY 2011)
Total assets US$ 116.371 billion (FY 2011)
Total equity US$ 76.615 billion (FY 20110)

It still places Samsung much larger than Apple.

 

[Elimentals]

Not sure what you are on about. Number of stocks (shares) and the stock (share) price individually are irrelevant - it is about the market capitalisation i.e. price x number of shares. A company with one share of R1,000,000 = same market value as a company with 1,000,000 shares of R1. When I refer to price I obviously mean the price (value) of the company as a whole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Market_capitalization

I was referring to limited number of shares with high demand causing inflated pricing. See when shares get split the value normally drop below the 50% if it was a true split.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble

Sorry dyslexic, so can normally debate better in person trying my hardest to do it on "Paper" so hope I make sense.

 

[undesign]

True, but we still wont know what the actual bank balance looks like for all the subsidiaries as they not listed in the USA so they do not follow USGAAP and yes I was using a unsubstantiated guess.

Oh, was just looking at the Wiki's numbers

Samsung
Revenue US$ 220.1 billion (2010)
Net income US$ 21.2 billion (2010)
Total assets US$ 343.7 billion (2010)
Total equity US$ 141.1 billion (2010)

Apple
Revenue US$ 108.249 billion (FY 2011)
Operating income US$ 33.790 billion (FY 2011)
Total assets US$ 116.371 billion (FY 2011)
Total equity US$ 76.615 billion (FY 20110)

It still places Samsung much larger than Apple.

Nope. This is all we need to know -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_corporations_by_market_capitalization

By way of simple explanation, with reference to my first post about valuing assets, let's assume an investor is interested in buying either Samsung or Apple and he has a 20% return on investment requirement. The investor will pay substantially less for Samsung to achieve a 20% ROI (Apple's operating income is much higher).

In the same way that you will invest R100 in an investment vehicle to earn R5. Given the same risk factors, you will be willing to pay R150 if that investment will earn you R7.50, no?

A simplistic, but effective way to value a company is simply to divide operating income by the required rate of return. Hence Apple's bigger value, as born out by the link I posted above.

 

[undesign]

I was referring to limited number of shares with high demand causing inflated pricing. See when shares get split the value normally drop below the 50% if it was a true split.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_bubble

Sorry dyslexic, so can normally debate better in person trying my hardest to do it on "Paper" so hope I make sense.

I still don't get where the share split comes in, sorry if I missed something in a previous post. A share split causes no change in market cap, it is simply done to make trading liquidity easier (if the share price becomes too high it becomes difficult for small investors to invest). It is simple arithmatics.

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stock_split

A stock split or stock divide increases the number of shares in a public company. The price is adjusted such that the before and after market capitalization of the company remains the same and dilution does not occur. Options and warrants are included.

Take, for example, a company with 100 shares of stock priced at $50 per share. The market capitalization is 100 × $50, or $5000. The company splits its stock 2-for-1. There are now 200 shares of stock and each shareholder holds twice as many shares. The price of each share is adjusted to $25. The market capitalization is 200 × $25 = $5000, the same as before the split.

EDIT/ sorry, re-read your post now about the valuing being less than 50% after the split, ignore my explanation above! Why do you say it is usually less than 50% after the split?

My point is still that Apple's market cap is based on historical, actual and projected REAL NET PROFITS.

 

[Fudzy]

Last time I checked you could do an equivalent PC for half the price.

Was 2-3 years ago, don't know if it has changed since.

I obviously went the PC route and haven't looked back.

Spec to spec?

 

[Carr0t]

So, anyway, no idea if this has been mentioned but i got an email from I-Alley who advertise the cheapest Iphone4S "on special" for R10k:

16GB - R9999
32GB - R10799
64GB - R11699

Now, tell me how that makes sense in ANY way, matching the Galaxy S2 against the iphone spec to spec, and then referring to the price again. Value always ways heavy on the scales when spending that kind of money. Either you care about how you spend what you earn or you don't. If you really care what people around you (the smart ones anyway) think...Meh, I'll stop there.