Stokstert
Executive Member
Yo, good luck. OP needs lots of it.
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Wiring distributuion box
- Thread starter Swa
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Suspect99
Executive Member
This thread is enlightening. Now I understand why swa thinks certificates are just the same or better than degrees.
Ghostim, an electrician isn't going to solve the main issues. And besides you're assuming they necessarily know and agree on everything. Tell me whether or not a stove should be connected to an E/L? Every expert opinion is differing on that and everyone is working from the same SANS regulation. Then there's the ones that would bypass a breaker because the geyser isn't working correctly. I kid you not!
You don't know how many installations are done incorrectly because the owner never checked it and simply trusted the expert. My brother moved into a house where the board caught fire. Who do you think is going to care the most about your life!? Sorry but compliance doesn't mean a damn thing in this world any more. I would rather have something done correctly than compliantly and I always end up redoing work that the supposed professionals did.
This is precisely why I didn't want this conversations here because on mybb your always get the types that want to start an argument for some reason where on other forums people simply provide answers.
The regulations don't say what you have to do. They say what you shouldn't do.
If a house is wired to an older standard, the stove didn't need to be on an EL.
Some electricians won't change anything on an existing installation without bringing it up to the new requirements.
Others don't force the issue because they want to earn a living and being told your installation sucks and will cost R10k to upgrade is guaranteed to lose them business.
Don't get me wrong, most "electricians" don't know anything about electricity in reality.
They follow the rules but they don't understand why it is the way it is or how it really works.
The reality is, following a recipe doesn't require much understanding.
There are a few electricians that truly understand what they are doing but I haven't seen any of them doing domestic installs.
They do however more often than not follow the rules very well and do a half decent job.
Which is exactly what you expect from a low skill industry.
I don't like the quality of electrical work generally speaking. But your level of knowledge is less than zero.
Before I started wiring my own place I was already very good with electronics and then learnt the regulations back to front (easily available online).
What you are doing on the other hand is plain ignorant. Which is what everyone is saying.
No offense to you, I'm just calling it as I see it.
But hell if you want to go ahead, then no one can stop you.
Nor do I think preventing you from getting the info is a useful exercise.
It is on you after all.
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Gnome with all due respect I beg to differ. You are talking to someone who is trained in electronics so to say that I know next to zero is plain ignorance in itself. I understand the quantum working of electricity and know what regulations are just to protect ignorant people and what is really dangerous.
What I say about the regulations are correct, they do say what should be done but are ambiguous at best. It takes a careful reading and rereading to figure out an E/L is only required in the case of a freestanding stove without a stove coupler. In the case where a dedicated coupler is used it doesn't need to be connected to an E/L except where it also supplies a socket outlet. If a socket outlet is supplied the whole circuit must be on an E/L regardless of whether it has a stove coupler. Most simply don't connect it to one as it is a common cause for nuisance trips.
Normal geyser also doesn't need to be on an E/L unless it is installed inside a bathroom in zones 1 or 2. I don't know what zones 1 and 2 are but they definitely don't apply here. So what was said here about yes or no is neither correct nor incorrect but depends on the circumstances.
You can say what you want but this is known as the forum of people causing controversy and not where advice is given for good reason. Post #3 and #6 are by known SJWs who previously advocated for people not to be removed from unsafe living conditions so their concern is definitely for safety but rather based on the fallacy of a world they've created in their image.
What I say about the regulations are correct, they do say what should be done but are ambiguous at best. It takes a careful reading and rereading to figure out an E/L is only required in the case of a freestanding stove without a stove coupler. In the case where a dedicated coupler is used it doesn't need to be connected to an E/L except where it also supplies a socket outlet. If a socket outlet is supplied the whole circuit must be on an E/L regardless of whether it has a stove coupler. Most simply don't connect it to one as it is a common cause for nuisance trips.
Normal geyser also doesn't need to be on an E/L unless it is installed inside a bathroom in zones 1 or 2. I don't know what zones 1 and 2 are but they definitely don't apply here. So what was said here about yes or no is neither correct nor incorrect but depends on the circumstances.
You can say what you want but this is known as the forum of people causing controversy and not where advice is given for good reason. Post #3 and #6 are by known SJWs who previously advocated for people not to be removed from unsafe living conditions so their concern is definitely for safety but rather based on the fallacy of a world they've created in their image.
My understanding was the EL is now required for everything.
I pretty much decided that I wasn't going to save money on breakers (because they cost very little).
And thereafter didn't bother where exactly EL is a must and where it is optional.
And I don't care enough to debate it
But the revisions to the regulations change every few years.
Regardless, if you care about saving money, skip the EL.
If you care about safety install an EL.
Honestly, "nuisance" trips only happen when you already have a problem.
When I moved into my place I first put everything on an EL, then had trips.
Ripped out all the wiring and found earth/neutral faults, leaking from geyser to ground due to badly rusted element, etc.
Now that I've fixed it all, haven't had an issue for over 2 years. Not a single trip. Ever.
This whole "nuisance" trip business is an excuse for low quality installations to get a free pass.
I mean, if I had to do it again today, I would put every single circuit on an RCBO like they do in the UK.
I really like the safety and quality of it.
Really ironic you say that as there is no degree or diploma for what's called in layman's terms an electrician. Electrical and electronic engineer yes, but not for an electrician.
FYI: https://www.livecopper.co.za/
Schneider Electric are good quality and very cost effective.
Hager is also good but overpriced IMO.
Chint 10kA products are also really good quality and quite affordable.
I won't even talk about CBi, locally made overpriced crap. Avoid.
Stick to 6kA or more where you can.
If you install 10kA on main breaker, don't install less than 6kA on your downstream breakers.
I wouldn't risk installing less than 6kA on main breaker.
Ideally 10kA on main breaker, 6kA on the rest.
Schneider Electric are good quality and very cost effective.
Hager is also good but overpriced IMO.
Chint 10kA products are also really good quality and quite affordable.
I won't even talk about CBi, locally made overpriced crap. Avoid.
Stick to 6kA or more where you can.
If you install 10kA on main breaker, don't install less than 6kA on your downstream breakers.
I wouldn't risk installing less than 6kA on main breaker.
Ideally 10kA on main breaker, 6kA on the rest.
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Suspect99
Executive Member
What do you do for a living?
Like your day to day, if you don't mind my asking?
Suspect99
Executive Member
Plc programming. And Vsds
Interesting, I was more expecting that you don't do electronics at all anymore
I'll say this, some people like keeping work at work.
Others like learning new skills and doing things themselves.
My job requires technical adherence to the nth degree and a lot of figuring out.
Similarly when I inspect things other people do and I see them not doing the same I lose faith in the quality and understanding of the "tradesman".
As such I can understand what SWA is after, regardless if it is exactly the same.
Rather an issue of space for me. From what I understand everything naturally leaks some current. When you have geyser, stove, plugs and lights this can add up and easily exceed the 30mA sensitivity of modern E/L's. Which is why you end up having to use more than one. These things change so much that what's a requirement today isn't one tomorrow or vice versa and I've also seen them go overboard in some cases.My understanding was the EL is now required for everything.
I pretty much decided that I wasn't going to save money on breakers (because they cost very little).
And thereafter didn't bother where exactly EL is a must and where it is optional.
And I don't care enough to debate it
But the revisions to the regulations change every few years.
Regardless, if you care about saving money, skip the EL.
If you care about safety install an EL.
Honestly, "nuisance" trips only happen when you already have a problem.
When I moved into my place I first put everything on an EL, then had trips.
Ripped out all the wiring and found earth/neutral faults, leaking from geyser to ground due to badly rusted element, etc.
Now that I've fixed it all, haven't had an issue for over 2 years. Not a single trip. Ever.
This whole "nuisance" trip business is an excuse for low quality installations to get a free pass.
I mean, if I had to do it again today, I would put every single circuit on an RCBO like they do in the UK.
I really like the safety and quality of it.
Honestly most nuisance trips were because the 15A breakers couldn't handle multiple appliances. Really this started after we replaced one of them with a 20A from the garage. We noticed the wire didn't look right but put it down to size. It must have further loosened then.
This is why you shouldn't trust salesmen, I wanted to get the 60A wire. The more I say it's the 60A coming into the house the more he insists it's only 16A, one-six. He agrees it's the big one they don't stock but claims it's only 16A. Yeah right, the 2.5mm I got is rated at 25A.
Geoff.D
Honorary Master
The advice you have already been given about getting this done by a qualified electrician is good EXCEPT for the fact that so much shoddy work is done these days.
The applicable MANDATORY SABS (SANS) regulation is SANS 10142-1: 2017.
The OHS Act 85 of 1993 requires that a competent person issue a COC for a premise after inspection to show that the wiring of the premise complies with above mandatory SANS specification.
Anyone can do the work, PROVIDED an inspection is carried out and a COC is issued. All you have to do ensure you have complied with the regulations in terms of wire gauges used, and the selection of components etc.
With respect to your specific questions.
1. It is ALWAYS good practice for the LIVE connections to be from the top of a circuit breaker and the LOAD connected to the bottom of a circuit breaker.
2. You should be aware that the set of regulations applicable to an installation are the ones that were in force when the premises were first wired. BUT you are busy with effectively a rewiring exercise, so it could be argued that you should be bringing the installation up to the latest standard, especially as you are replacing just about everything in the main DB .
3. You also need to be aware that provinces and municipalities have their own local regulations that you may also have to comply with.
4. Whatever you do, stick to the same standard and even supplier and make of circuit breakers etc that are suitable for the DB board you are installing. It just works better and looks more professional in the end.
5. As to the "rules" about what needs to be taken through an E/L , ALL power sockets SHALL/MUST be fed via an E/L unit. Stoves, geyser, lights do not have to taken via an E/L breaker BUT this varies for some provinces and municipalities.
It is all about the safety aspects. For example, IF (as seems to be the case for you) you have steel conduits and older metal plate light switches, then light circuits should also go via an E/L unit.
Stoves and geysers MUST be bonded to earth as already indicated, but depending on the age of the premises and what rules applied then, you may find that these units do not go via an E/L unit. It is up to you what you do now.
6. Older installations would have had a main double pole isolator where the main supply enters the DB board, connected to the top of the isolator. The load is then connected to the bottom of the isolator brought back to the top for the rest of the wiring. Then a double pole isolator for the geyser, a single pole CB for a stove, and then the main feed to the E/L unit.
7. Newer installations done with a combined double pole isolator /E/L unit do not easily allow for you to keep the geyser and the stove circuits off E/L. But depending on the local regulations and what the latest SANS says you can still implement such an arrangement.
8. The zones referred to in the regs are to do with lightning and surge protection. These aspects are covered by SANS 10313: 2012; SANS 62305-1,2,3: 2011.
These regulations/standards allow for the installation of 3 levels of surge protection, which changes the way in which a DB board is wired away from an installation focused purely on human safety but also considers what needs to be done to protect electrical and electronic equipment.
9. A DB board requires that a common neutral bar be available where ALL neutral connections are made. IF the board is split with a mains isolator and a separate E/L unit THEN you need to have 2 Neutral bars interconnected in some installations. More care then needs to be taken about ensuring that all circuits protected by the E/L unit are connected to the bar on that side of the E/L breaker, otherwise you will have lots of nuisance trips.
10. A board requires an earth bar also.
There are many tricks to get around the COC requirements even in older premises with steel conduits. For example, you could eliminate taking the light circuits viw the E/L by simply replacing ALL the light switches with modern plastic ones with plastic cover plates.
Generally, ANY component that has a metallic component in it MUST be earthed to the main earth bar. So if you have light fittings made of metal , you will have to ensure that they are earthed even if the light circuit is not taken via the E/L unit.
If you want I will post pictures of 2 DB boards supposedly covered by COC's issued in CT. What is clear after I ran the same tests that a COC inspector would run, the installations comply but the quality of the workmanship is way below my standard. My moms place has recently had a prepaid meter fitted by a Council contractor. My sisters place has always had a prepaid meter. You will clearly see the difference in workmanship between the two jobs.
I
The applicable MANDATORY SABS (SANS) regulation is SANS 10142-1: 2017.
The OHS Act 85 of 1993 requires that a competent person issue a COC for a premise after inspection to show that the wiring of the premise complies with above mandatory SANS specification.
Anyone can do the work, PROVIDED an inspection is carried out and a COC is issued. All you have to do ensure you have complied with the regulations in terms of wire gauges used, and the selection of components etc.
With respect to your specific questions.
1. It is ALWAYS good practice for the LIVE connections to be from the top of a circuit breaker and the LOAD connected to the bottom of a circuit breaker.
2. You should be aware that the set of regulations applicable to an installation are the ones that were in force when the premises were first wired. BUT you are busy with effectively a rewiring exercise, so it could be argued that you should be bringing the installation up to the latest standard, especially as you are replacing just about everything in the main DB .
3. You also need to be aware that provinces and municipalities have their own local regulations that you may also have to comply with.
4. Whatever you do, stick to the same standard and even supplier and make of circuit breakers etc that are suitable for the DB board you are installing. It just works better and looks more professional in the end.
5. As to the "rules" about what needs to be taken through an E/L , ALL power sockets SHALL/MUST be fed via an E/L unit. Stoves, geyser, lights do not have to taken via an E/L breaker BUT this varies for some provinces and municipalities.
It is all about the safety aspects. For example, IF (as seems to be the case for you) you have steel conduits and older metal plate light switches, then light circuits should also go via an E/L unit.
Stoves and geysers MUST be bonded to earth as already indicated, but depending on the age of the premises and what rules applied then, you may find that these units do not go via an E/L unit. It is up to you what you do now.
6. Older installations would have had a main double pole isolator where the main supply enters the DB board, connected to the top of the isolator. The load is then connected to the bottom of the isolator brought back to the top for the rest of the wiring. Then a double pole isolator for the geyser, a single pole CB for a stove, and then the main feed to the E/L unit.
7. Newer installations done with a combined double pole isolator /E/L unit do not easily allow for you to keep the geyser and the stove circuits off E/L. But depending on the local regulations and what the latest SANS says you can still implement such an arrangement.
8. The zones referred to in the regs are to do with lightning and surge protection. These aspects are covered by SANS 10313: 2012; SANS 62305-1,2,3: 2011.
These regulations/standards allow for the installation of 3 levels of surge protection, which changes the way in which a DB board is wired away from an installation focused purely on human safety but also considers what needs to be done to protect electrical and electronic equipment.
9. A DB board requires that a common neutral bar be available where ALL neutral connections are made. IF the board is split with a mains isolator and a separate E/L unit THEN you need to have 2 Neutral bars interconnected in some installations. More care then needs to be taken about ensuring that all circuits protected by the E/L unit are connected to the bar on that side of the E/L breaker, otherwise you will have lots of nuisance trips.
10. A board requires an earth bar also.
There are many tricks to get around the COC requirements even in older premises with steel conduits. For example, you could eliminate taking the light circuits viw the E/L by simply replacing ALL the light switches with modern plastic ones with plastic cover plates.
Generally, ANY component that has a metallic component in it MUST be earthed to the main earth bar. So if you have light fittings made of metal , you will have to ensure that they are earthed even if the light circuit is not taken via the E/L unit.
If you want I will post pictures of 2 DB boards supposedly covered by COC's issued in CT. What is clear after I ran the same tests that a COC inspector would run, the installations comply but the quality of the workmanship is way below my standard. My moms place has recently had a prepaid meter fitted by a Council contractor. My sisters place has always had a prepaid meter. You will clearly see the difference in workmanship between the two jobs.
I
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Geoff.D
Honorary Master
From the photo you provided, your installation is on the old side. It is really dangerous to simply replace CBs with larger ones. The CBs are NOT there to protect the appliances connected but are there to protect the wiring.
The power socket wiring gauge is wrong in the photo, hence why there were only 15A breakers installed.
The regs define what gauges are required for power sockets and how many outlets are allowed per CB.
You cannot rely on the salesman unless he has a electrician qualification, all he can do is tell you what he thinks you need.
Gnome will probably respond with the correct gauge wiring required for the various circuits. The wiring from the main council connection in the street to your first isolator is determined by the local council regulations and the rating of the CB in the street box.
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Actually the older voltage operated ones had an earth wire connected to them so you had 3 wires going in and 3 wires going out. Now that I've read up on the new amperage operated ones I understand how they can work without an earth wire. They also don't connect to the rail electrically and only protect for the devices connected to them and not the whole DB.
I've worked on the wiring when replacing plugs and trust me, they are not the standard 2.5mm2 25A. I doubt they are even 4mm2 as they are near impossible to bend and get into the socket. I know it's there primarily to protect the wiring but that's one area where there isn't a problem and they should be able to handle 25A or even more. Heck even the lights use 2.5mm.
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Billy
Expert Member
I would suggest that anyone looking at wiring installations actually read the regulations. There is so much rubbish in this thread that reading them is the only way that one could get the correct advice.
Generally Electricians do not do the installations, it is the Assistants. The Electrician just comes along and "Checks".
I have not come across an Electrician that actually knows the regulation. My house is wired as I wanted it, and correctly to the regulations, but only after lengthy discussions with the Electrician, and reference to the Regs.
My power points are all on E/L except one dedicated Red socket. Geyser, stove, dish washer, fridge and freezer, are all on dedicated 2 pole points. The washing machine and tumble dryer are in the safe zone of the bathroom.
The lights are not on earth leakage, This requirement was removed in the second edition in the 1980's.
The correct cable sizes for each condition are also listed. In households this is 1.5mm for lighting and 2.5mm for power points. (older installations will probably have 4mm.)
My experience, Responsible Person for Factories, and I have completely rewired a house, checked by my Certified Factory Electrician.
BUT, if you don't know what you are doing get a Competent Certified Electrician.
Generally Electricians do not do the installations, it is the Assistants. The Electrician just comes along and "Checks".
I have not come across an Electrician that actually knows the regulation. My house is wired as I wanted it, and correctly to the regulations, but only after lengthy discussions with the Electrician, and reference to the Regs.
My power points are all on E/L except one dedicated Red socket. Geyser, stove, dish washer, fridge and freezer, are all on dedicated 2 pole points. The washing machine and tumble dryer are in the safe zone of the bathroom.
The lights are not on earth leakage, This requirement was removed in the second edition in the 1980's.
The correct cable sizes for each condition are also listed. In households this is 1.5mm for lighting and 2.5mm for power points. (older installations will probably have 4mm.)
My experience, Responsible Person for Factories, and I have completely rewired a house, checked by my Certified Factory Electrician.
BUT, if you don't know what you are doing get a Competent Certified Electrician.
