Load Shedding does not work

[Moederloos]

I have a prepaid meter - so for me it is relatively easy to get the figures I am about to quote. I would be interested in other people's experience / observations.

I use 35KW of power per day - every day. This figure seldom fluctuates much, and whenever I buy more, I do a quick calc again over the "billing period", and it is 35KW per day. That translates into about 2KW per hour for the 16 "awake" hours per day, and 3KW for the 8 "sleeping hours".

Now, yesterday, our power was cut from 11am-2pm - 3 hours. In theory, this should have removed 6KW from the grid. However, when the power returned, my usage spiked - I used almost 4KW in under 40mins. By 3:30pm (90 mins after power was restored) I had used 7KW. In other words, my usage in 90 mins was double what it would have been had there been no load shedding to begin with, and my overall consumption was not diminished in any appreciable way.

For the curious, this power use was all related to "always on" equipment like fridges (which were now hot), geyser (which was now cold), UPS (which were all flat) and so on. I did switch the kettle on, but this was the only "active" power use on my part.

Anyone else notice this trend or have figures we can see?

[eltherza]

Anyone else notice this trend or have figures we can see?

Well, think of it like this. Which is harder to do, push a car from stand still or push a car that is already moving? I believe the same applies for everything in your house.

Another example. Your fridge is smart that when it increases 1 degree from the level it's set, it takes 10mins to lower it that 1 degree. During load shedding, your fridge would increase 4 degrees, thus taking 40mins later decrease the degrees again. Have you saved power? No. But what load shedding DOES stop is things that aren't automated, such as TVs, lights.

Of course that is stupid to, people will just change the times they watch TV, do washing and cooking.

The whole "pre-emptive" load shedding isn't to save coal for winter, it's because they cannot produce enough power at the time for everyone. Saving coal is a joke because everyone will just change when they use the power.

[*New* *Improved* chiskop]

Moederloos, I have no idea about my own usage but I'm interested in your figures. Why do you think you're using more power during the eight sleeping hours? Is that the geyser?

As an aside, my parents used to have a prepaid system in a holiday house. One day it stopped debiting our usage. For about two years they were running off the same R20 pre-paid electricity. My father's argument was that it would be expensive for Eskom to come out to resolve the problem, and that it would take them years to recoup that cost, seeing as the house was only occupied about two months of the year. :D

After about two years, the meter started running again with no intervention. :)

[Moederloos]

Moederloos, I have no idea about my own usage but I'm interested in your figures. Why do you think you're using more power during the eight sleeping hours? Is that the geyser?


Its 3KW over the entire 8 hours, or about 0.4KW per hour. Not 3KW per hour over the 8, or 24KW. :D

It is of course a bit of a guess (its close to accurate), I tried to divide the 35KW over 24 in a way that "made sense".

[zambussi]

Aah, but here's what you're missing. Load shedding is not in place to save overall electricity consumption, but rather to stagger it since almost 25% of the network is down due to non-existent maintenance.

So when your power comes back on line, yes you will use more power, but mnay businesses which account for the majority of power usage will have closed by 6PM, so there is spare capacity.

Of course if Eishkom hadn't been in such a hurry to purge skilled white staff in the past, we wouldn't be in this mess - but nothing we can do about that now - especially since their masters haven't learnt anything from this fiasco.

[Moederloos]

Aah, but here's what you're missing. Load shedding is not in place to save overall electricity consumption, but rather to stagger it since almost 25% of the network is down due to non-existent maintenance.

So when your power comes back on line, yes you will use more power, but mnay businesses which account for the majority of power usage will have closed by 6PM, so there is spare capacity.

Of course if Eishkom hadn't been in such a hurry to purge skilled white staff in the past, we wouldn't be in this mess - but nothing we can do about that now - especially since their masters haven't learnt anything from this fiasco.

There's the rub - my power returned at 2pm. Just in time for "them" to now be required to loadshed the JHB CBD. So, in short, the load shedding of the CBD was required, due to the excess power usage in Roodepoort, which in turn was required, because at 10am Sandton (or wherever), came back on and used an excess in power...
And, when the CBD came on at 6pm, the Florida/Maraisburg section went off - until 10pm.

So, the staggering is not even useful - it is worse than useless as it just concentrates 3-4 hours of power usage into 90mins.

[AutoX]

I think you are onto something Moederloos, I really do.

[diabolus]

Well the fact that we -never- know for sure when Eskom plans to load shed also means, we don't plan/spread our usage around it . So when we get load shedded it is generally case that you did not do what you wanted to do [i.e. heat the water / cooking / etc] . So what happens when the power comes back on? You turn on ALL your stuff [catching up on 2 hours+ of no power basically] = a big spike. If i knew with 100% certainty on day x, from time x-y i won't have power, i might have done a few things earlier
or spread them out around the time without then having to turn -everything- on the second the power comes on.

It's the same thing at work. We -can- actually function without power if we know about it, we have tons of meetings which are perfect to be held in power outage moments....but we simply can not plan it as Eskom just seem to load shed when the hell they feel like it.


I thought Eskom was onto something when they said they will Loadshed areas regardless of whether there are enough power [ensuring a consistent schedule], but they then simply pulled out of that one saying "there's enough power"...2 days later blam power goes randomly again. So Eskom is a bunch of morons combined with municalities...or whoever is suppose to plan these things properly.

[Moederloos]

Well the fact that we -never- know for sure when Eskom plans to load shed also means, we don't plan/spread our usage around it . So when we get load shedded it is generally case that you did not do what you wanted to do [i.e. heat the water / cooking / etc] .

...

So Eskom is a bunch of morons combined with municalities...or whoever is suppose to plan these things properly.

Two good points I often debate. The first is a real pain - yesterday the power went out at 10:52 - instead of 10. (am). So, at 10am I need to go out - turn off PC. Get back at 10:40 - power is on. So, I turn everything on - only to have the power kill everything 10 mins later.
The local Spar lost an entire day's baking - they put bread and rolls in the oven at 10:30, thinking the power would not go off that day.
And I am sure the problem is not localised to my experience.

As to the municipalities being moronic. So true. Power comes on at 2pm - and despite our area having ripple switches - they allow the geysers to all be on. Huge spike in usage.

[Daveogg]

Have to agree here, in fact i think the load shedding i am experiencing is actually making the situation worse.

Take for example my swimming pool pump, which i have set to NOT run during the morning or evening peak. Eskom in its wisdom load shed me from 12 - 2:20pm, thereby disabling the timer on my pump. When the power comes back on, the pool pump starts again and is in use for the same number of hours as it would have been, except it is now running during peak periods.

Similar for a whole host of other power using appliances.

[HavocXphere]

You stated that your hourly usage is about 2kW.

By loadshedding you they effectively cut 6KW (2 x 3 hours).

During the 1.5 hours afterwards, you used 4KW over and above your normal usage (7-1.5x2).

That's 2KW "saved" on your house alone.

That's significant amount when demand is getting close to supply.


There's the rub - my power returned at 2pm. Just in time for "them" to now be required to loadshed the JHB CBD. So, in short, the load shedding of the CBD was required, due to the excess power usage in Roodepoort, which in turn was required, because at 10am Sandton (or wherever), came back on and used an excess in power...
Your chain reaction theory only works if the total usage increases, which by your numbers it does not and there are no peak periods, which there are. With a total decrease and the presence of peak periods, the benefit of moving usage into non-peak periods and total savings outweighs this effect of one load shedding triggering another.

[Moederloos]

You stated that your hourly usage is about 2kW.

By loadshedding you they effectively cut 6KW (2 x 3 hours).

During the 1.5 hours afterwards, you used 4KW over and above your normal usage (7-1.5x2).

That's 2KW "saved" on your house alone.

That's significant amount when demand is getting close to supply.



No - because for the rest of the 3 hours (1.5 hours), I used the regular 2KW.
So, I used 7KW in 3 hours as opposed to the normal 6. An INCREASE of 1KW.

At best, I came out equal - but! at the expense of a concentrated load for 1.5 hours.

[Deenem]

Sorry to be pedantic, but you used 35 KWH per day, not 35KW.

Think of a 35KW engine running for an hour, the energy that it produces in that hour is 35KWH and that's how much you used during the day.

Otherwise, I think you have a valid point, there will definately be a surge everytime the power comes back on and everthign starts to 'catch up'

[killadoob]

can they store electricity?

i mean ould they shut the whole of Gauteng down from 2-4am would this make a difference?

[HavocXphere]

No - because for the rest of the 3 hours (1.5 hours), I used the regular 2KW.
So, I used 7KW in 3 hours as opposed to the normal 6. An INCREASE of 1KW.

At best, I came out equal - but! at the expense of a concentrated load for 1.5 hours.
Here's how I worked out 2KW. Maybe my calc is wrong:

Without loadshedding
Day: 16 hours x 2 = 32 KW
Night (8hours): 3 KW
Total hours: 24
Total usage: 35

With loadshedding:
Day:
->3 hours loadshed: 0 KW
->1.5 increased usage: 7 KW
->11.5* normal: 23 KW
Night(8hours) 3 KW
Total hours: 24
Total usage: 33

35 - 33 = 2 KW savings

*=24-8-3-1.5=11.5 hours

[Moederloos]

Here's how I worked out 2KW. Maybe my calc is wrong:

Without loadshedding
Day: 16 hours x 2 = 32 KW
Night (8hours): 3 KW
Total hours: 24
Total usage: 35

With loadshedding:
Day:
->3 hours loadshed: 0 KW
->1.5 increased usage: 7 KW
->11.5* normal: 23 KW
Night(8hours) 3 KW
Total hours: 24
Total usage: 33

35 - 33 = 2 KW savings

*=24-8-3-1.5=11.5 hours


OK - fair enough. Next load shed I will keep usage figures for 5-6 hours to see how long it takes to stabilise completely.
However, the point remains that for 1.5 hours I used around 4 times my normal usage - which surely defeats the whole purpose of load shedding to begin with. In other words, Eskom are forced to load shed another area just to accommodate the increased strain on supply, caused by my having been loadshedded to begin with!

[Frankie]

OK - fair enough. Next load shed I will keep usage figures for 5-6 hours to see how long it takes to stabilise completely.
However, the point remains that for 1.5 hours I used around 4 times my normal usage - which surely defeats the whole purpose of load shedding to begin with. In other words, Eskom are forced to load shed another area just to accommodate the increased strain on supply, caused by my having been loadshedded to begin with!

Load shedding is not there to save on your bill or overall consumption, but to relieve the inability of Eishkom to meet the instantaneous load demand with the limited number of generators they have available.

[Moederloos]

Load shedding is not there to save on your bill or overall consumption, but to relieve the inability of Eishkom to meet the instantaneous load demand with the limited number of generators they have available.

Which is my point - it fails in that task.
If my load increases 3-4 fold after power is restored, they are exasperating the problem by shedding in the first place!

[stoke]

I completely agree with you Moederloos, I sit here watching my UPS's recharge and hear the fridge running full speed and the freezer sprinting at full speed, and of course, when the power comes back on immediately one cuppa tea/coffee is required.

This is more like spike enforcing, not load shedding.

[HavocXphere]

1.5 hours I used around 4 times my normal usage
Valid point there. Its more than double (2.5X). So they would need to loadshed 5 areas for every 4 they loadshedded in the previous hour/period. However, if the loadshedding hours are long enough, then a single round of loadshedding can move the entire thing into off-peak...where the eventual spike matters less.

You're right in that its not as clear-cut as it seems, but they are not exasperating the problem. If demand approaches supply then they *must* loadshed to prevent a cascading grid collapse. No choice.

[bwana]

I might put a hi-low thermometer in my fridge and freezer to see how much variance there really is.

[Moederloos]

I might put a hi-low thermometer in my fridge and freezer to see how much variance there really is.

Reading around, it appears there is a lot. 4 hours seems to be the point where health organisations recommend testing food to see if it has spoiled. (Fridge, not freezer - freezer is 18-24 hours).

[Moederloos]

However, if the loadshedding hours are long enough, then a single round of loadshedding can move the entire thing into off-peak...where the eventual spike matters less.



Which brings me back to another pet hate. The advertisement on the radio where they tell people to switch the geyser off when they go to work, and back on when they get home - which leads to a healthy spike at 5-7pm when people turn their geysers on.... :p

[Albereth]

If there were any intelligent people at Eishcom we wouldn't be in this mess.

[GavinMannion]

Just to jump in quickly...

I was lucky enough to be present in a meeting the other day on how Eskom are trying to fix the problem...

1. There are some highly intelligent people from the private and government sectors working on this.
2. Load shedding is here for two reasons, to spread peak demand and remind us that we need to cut down on our usage.
3. The only way that this problem is going to get fixed is by being more intelligent with our electricity usage and paying more for electricity.

The fact is we are paying way to little for the electricity that we use at the moment and even if we increased our prices by 200% we would still be one of the cheapest places in the world for power.

Everyone can look back and blame everyone else for the mess we are in but that won't change anything. There are plans happening every day to fix the problem and it will be fixed, however it takes time and money...

[Albereth]

/me thinks about making a comment about gullibility but bites lip rather.

[Frankie]

Just to jump in quickly...

I was lucky enough to be present in a meeting the other day on how Eskom are trying to fix the problem...

1. There are some highly intelligent people from the private and government sectors working on this.
2. Load shedding is here for two reasons, to spread peak demand and remind us that we need to cut down on our usage.
3. The only way that this problem is going to get fixed is by being more intelligent with our electricity usage and paying more for electricity.

The fact is we are paying way to little for the electricity that we use at the moment and even if we increased our prices by 200% we would still be one of the cheapest places in the world for power.

Everyone can look back and blame everyone else for the mess we are in but that won't change anything. There are plans happening every day to fix the problem and it will be fixed, however it takes time and money...

We don't blame 'everyone else', we blame those responsible, being Eishkom and ANC.

There needs to be more transparency regarding the plans to sort out this mess. Show us the plans!
We need to know that the fat cats are not getting their bonuses.
We need to know that the neighboring countries were load shed before us.
We need to know that they are using the cheapest coal supplies without the corrupt dealings with BEE suppliers.
We need to know that competent engineers, regardless of their colour, are being hired to maintain the power plants.

Do you have confidence that these problems will be fixed, like the problems were fixed with Home Affairs where they hired a private consulting company to 'turn things around' - if you've been to Home Affairs recently (I have) you'll notice that it the same old cr@p.

[GavinMannion]

/me thinks about making a comment about gullibility but bites lip rather.

/me thinks you haven't got a clue what you are talking about :p


We don't blame 'everyone else', we blame those responsible, being Eishkom and ANC.

There needs to be more transparency regarding the plans to sort out this mess. Show us the plans!
We need to know that the fat cats are not getting their bonuses.
We need to know that the neighboring countries were load shed before us.
We need to know that they are using the cheapest coal supplies without the corrupt dealings with BEE suppliers.

The BEE suppliers are not the ones pushing the coal price up, go check the world prices.

There are agreements with certain countries and companies where as they cannot be load shed. Else the financial penalties would cripple Eskom.

I am pretty sure the employees of Eskom will still be paid bonusses but I know nothing about that part.

Strange that you didn't ask for any information about the actual plans, but rather asked for incriminating things to carry on whining about :rolleyes:

[Frankie]

/me thinks you haven't got a clue what you are talking about :p



The BEE suppliers are not the ones pushing the coal price up, go check the world prices.

There are agreements with certain countries and companies where as they cannot be load shed. Else the financial penalties would cripple Eskom.

I am pretty sure the employees of Eskom will still be paid bonusses but I know nothing about that part.

Strange that you didn't ask for any information about the actual plans, but rather asked for incriminating things to carry on whining about :rolleyes:

And if these plans were so wonderful, I'd expect you would have posted a hint as to what they were!

The price of coal is not the issue, it's the lack of planning that resulted in stockpiles being leveled to the ground.

The power stations that ran short of coal are built on coal mines with reserves to see the power station past it's design life, but they severed the contracts with them in favour of underhanded BEE deals.
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=113302

http://www.news24.com/News24/MyNews24/Your_story/0,,2-2127-2128_2301954,00.html

And before you accuse me of not knowing what I'm talking about, bear in mind I worked for Eishkom and have hands on knowledge of what I'm talking about.

[GavinMannion]

Unfortunately I am not allowed to reveal exact details, needless to say a few things are COGEN, more power stations, future planning, better modelling and whether anyone likes it or not, large price increases.

I am not getting into a conversation about how we got to where we are, I was just trying to shed some light on the fact that there are people working very hard to get us out of where we are.

We are also not the first country that this happened to and thanks to greed we won't be the last

[Moederloos]

Strange that you didn't ask for any information about the actual plans, but rather asked for incriminating things to carry on whining about :rolleyes:

He actually did ;)

[Albereth]

Oh well, seeing as I don't know of what I speak I'll stop biting my lip and say you are gullible. You have accepted the lies about how things are going to be sorted out and glossed over the fact that the idiots who just fed your that bull are the same idiots who caused the mess in the first place.

You have bought into the whole bull about the world price of coal. The stuff they shovel into the power stations can't be sold internationally - it is not of a good enough quality - that's why it was cheap for Eishkom to acquire it. You now have all the passengers on the gravy train wanting their slice.

You have also come out with the nonsense about a 200% increase still leaving us as one of the cheapest suppliers of electricity. So what? South Africa does not make money exporting electricty - it makes it from digging holes in the ground. So right now the economy is going to contract, we are becoming even less competitive both in our base costs and the fact that we won't be earning enough to pay for tariff protection.

So great. You sat in a room with the very idiots who caused the mess and you think they are bright? They aren't. They are smooth, slick, and con-artists of the top order. Give me a dour Afrikaner any day - he'd be more concerned with getting the job done than worrying about whether the comb in his sock matches his Armani safari suit.

[Frankie]

Unfortunately I am not allowed to reveal exact details, needless to say a few things are COGEN, more power stations, future planning, better modelling and whether anyone likes it or not, large price increases.

I am not getting into a conversation about how we got to where we are, I was just trying to shed some light on the fact that there are people working very hard to get us out of where we are.

We are also not the first country that this happened to and thanks to greed we won't be the last

And without the transparency, which we're entitled to, we'll expect it to be just as successful as the so called turn-around in Home Affairs.

And we'll pay more for the useless fat cats to keep their jobs.

[Moederloos]

Oi - who hijacked my thread!

[GavinMannion]

Oh well, seeing as I don't know of what I speak I'll stop biting my lip and say you are gullible. You have accepted the lies about how things are going to be sorted out and glossed over the fact that the idiots who just fed your that bull are the same idiots who caused the mess in the first place.

Actually no, these guys are the ones who have been brought in to helpfix the mess


You have bought into the whole bull about the world price of coal. The stuff they shovel into the power stations can't be sold internationally - it is not of a good enough quality - that's why it was cheap for Eishkom to acquire it. You now have all the passengers on the gravy train wanting their slice.

So you think that our coal price isn't affected by the international price?


You have also come out with the nonsense about a 200% increase still leaving us as one of the cheapest suppliers of electricity. So what? South Africa does not make money exporting electricty - it makes it from digging holes in the ground. So right now the economy is going to contract, we are becoming even less competitive both in our base costs and the fact that we won't be earning enough to pay for tariff protection.

Simple facts here Albereth. It costs a certain amount of money to make electricity. We are selling ours for exactly that. We don't have enough money to maintain and create new power stations. To get the private guys involved the price needs to be increased to make it a worthwhile investment and to give everyone some breathing room.


So great. You sat in a room with the very idiots who caused the mess and you think they are bright? They aren't. They are smooth, slick, and con-artists of the top order. Give me a dour Afrikaner any day - he'd be more concerned with getting the job done than worrying about whether the comb in his sock matches his Armani safari suit.

Thanks for showing your ignorance, again...

The head of the group is Afrikaans if it makes you feel better and the rest are made up of virtually every race and culture under the sun.

I don't know why I bother with this forum....

[Albereth]

I don't know why I bother with this forum....

Neither do I.

But did all the Eishcom fat cats and government sycophants get replaced?

Nope - is the answer. So the idiots are still there.

[CathJ]

/me thinks you haven't got a clue what you are talking about :p



The BEE suppliers are not the ones pushing the coal price up, go check the world prices.

There are agreements with certain countries and companies where as they cannot be load shed. Else the financial penalties would cripple Eskom.

I am pretty sure the employees of Eskom will still be paid bonusses but I know nothing about that part.

Strange that you didn't ask for any information about the actual plans, but rather asked for incriminating things to carry on whining about :rolleyes:

I understand that. But... surely there should be something similar in place for those of us who actually live here and pay higher prices for electricity? Isn't there an implied contract with us South Africans, that they supply us with electricity?

[icyrus]

Just to jump in quickly...

I was lucky enough to be present in a meeting the other day on how Eskom are trying to fix the problem...

1. There are some highly intelligent people from the private and government sectors working on this.

Why are the plans not being made public? Why is there no transparency in eskom & government dealings with regards to this?


2. Load shedding is here for two reasons, to spread peak demand

Acceptable reason.


and remind us that we need to cut down on our usage.

Unacceptable reason. What are they hoping for, some pavlovian effect? Ridiculous.


3. The only way that this problem is going to get fixed is by being more intelligent with our electricity usage

This well help, but it doesn't address some of the major problems. How much exactly is residential use of eskom's total capacity?


and paying more for electricity.

How do you see this helping? By reducing demand or increasing profits. I don't think we can have both.


The fact is we are paying way to little for the electricity that we use at the moment and even if we increased our prices by 200% we would still be one of the cheapest places in the world for power.

Do you have anything to substantiate this claim with? I see it quite often but never any evidence for it. Also, is this taking into account different minimum wages etc...?

Show me a study showing electricity price per kwh as a percentage of minimum wage that shows SA's price as 1/3 of most places and I'll believe you.


Everyone can look back and blame everyone else for the mess we are in but that won't change anything. There are plans happening every day to fix the problem and it will be fixed, however it takes time and money...

Blame is laid on those who deserve it. The government and eskom are solely and totally responsible for this mess and still they don't accept responsibility and try shift blame. We are not having that, and nor should we. The only way we can stop a stuff-up of such catastrophic proportions from happening again is to hold those responsible for this accountable.

So you can ask people to stop blaming government and eskom when the people responsible are out of a job, without severance pay.

[Alan]

Blame is laid on those who deserve it. The government and eskom are solely and totally responsible for this mess and still they don't accept responsibility and try shift blame. We are not having that, and nor should we. The only way we can stop a stuff-up of such catastrophic proportions from happening again is to hold those responsible for this accountable.

So you can ask people to stop blaming government and eskom when the people responsible are out of a job, without severance pay.

Exactly. How on earth can anyone believe this will be fixed if the same people responsible for this mess are still in charge. :rolleyes:

[Albereth]

No wonder we have complete and utter confusion - "plans are happening every day".

We won't tell you what the plan is for tomorrow, and you know all about yesterday's plan when your power was cut in the middle of dinner.

[diabolus]

Look i'm fine if they increase the prices, in fact they should do it just so they can't throw the "our electricity is the cheapest in the world" slogan at me while my power is down.

However, then i want to see RESULTS. I don't want to hear "we're gonna build power stations", "we're gonna appoint engineers" , "we're gonna PLAN" ....and then 2 years from now they STILL say "it's apartheids fault, no one planned for the increase of growth " .
Meantime they walk away with bigger bonuses and STILL zero planning or service...exactly like Telkom.

What concerns me however is that they only ask for this increase NOW when the sh*t hits the fan. How can i trust people who couldn't even PLAN THEIR OWN FINANCES , to plan for future electricity supply ?

[Alan]

We've seen here in PMB "highly intelligent people from the private and government sectors working on this." working on it. So 'enlightened' as to black out some residential areas between 18:30 to 21:30 as Kasyx found out while other residential areas get off comparatively lightly by having 11:00 to 1:30 power cuts. Only after residents complained did they change this idiotic plan. Oh but they still managed to slip in an extra half hour per week of blackouts so maybe they aren't that utterly stupid after all.

[Moederloos]

What concerns me however is that they only ask for this increase NOW when the sh*t hits the fan. How can i trust people who couldn't even PLAN THEIR OWN FINANCES , to plan for future electricity supply ?

After a goodly chunk of the economy and consumers expenditure was based on power prices.
I remember choosing between a gas range and an electric stove 4 years ago.
Chose electric because it was more cost effective (capital + running costs incl).
Had power been "more expensive" back then, I would have gone gas.

So, throwing "our power is too cheap" arguments at me makes me say "Well, that is *your* bloody fault, not mine Eksdom."

[HavocXphere]

It costs a certain amount of money to make electricity. We are selling ours for exactly that.
No. We are selling it below cost. Especially to the other countries and industrial consumers. As anybody with the slightest sense of business knowledge will tell you, selling everything belong cost will freeze capital expenditure and kill the operation.


We don't have enough money to maintain and create new power stations.
Some departments managed to spend only 2% of their allocated budget last year. We bought submarines, attack aircraft and attack boats. The problem is not the financing, its the clowns tasked with management/leadership.


To get the private guys involved the price needs to be increased to make it a worthwhile investment and to give everyone some breathing room.
There *were* private offers. But the muppets in charged at Eskom/Government said no.:rolleyes: Now we have a crisis and the private guys have us by the balls. They'll charge ridiculous amounts and the government/(taxpayers) will have to pay.

[bekdik]

Just look how effective the arms deal has been. Since we have spent R100billion on the arms deal, we haven't been attacked once, which PROVES that the money was well spent.

As was the planning of our electricity usgae.

[bwana]

Reading around, it appears there is a lot. 4 hours seems to be the point where health organisations recommend testing food to see if it has spoiled. (Fridge, not freezer - freezer is 18-24 hours).I'm about 5 minutes away from a scheduled load shed and the internal temp of the fridge is 4 deg according to a thermometer I swiped off the wall - lets see what happens . . . :)

[HavocXphere]

I'm about 5 minutes away from a scheduled load shed and the internal temp of the fridge is 4 deg according to a thermometer I swiped off the wall - lets see what happens . . . :)
Is that with or without the kids check whats in the fridge every few seconds.

[bwana]

Is that with or without the kids check whats in the fridge every few seconds.Without. Even the three year old knows better even with the power on! :)

[Road runner]

So.. What are the results? :)

[pimal3]

Even the three year old knows better even with the power on! :)

Will your three year old apply for a position as Eskom CEO? We really need some brains there.

[bwana]

So.. What are the results? :)A degree - if that - after two hours

[hierts]

A degree - if that - after two hours

And they say science is boring:D anybody else write the date they install a compact flourecent bulb to see how long they last?

[Moederloos]

A degree - if that - after two hours

http://www.foodauthority.nsw.gov.au/consumer/c-food-safety-during-power-failures.asp


A closed refrigerator should keep your food cool for 4 to 6 hours.

Some other sites I have gone to recommend testing the internal temperature of certain food items after 4 hours (I have posted those links elsewhere on this forum already).

Remember - we up north have 4 hour outages, with 30 mins either way for good measure.

[Road runner]

LOL! The pity is that we need the contents of the refrigerator when the blackout occurs. There seems to be a need to eat as soon as the lights go out. :)

Bwana have your blackouts happened as scheduled?

[bwana]

And they say science is boring:D anybody else write the date they install a compact flourecent bulb to see how long they last?Well it was hardly scientific but it did quell my curiosity for the time being :D
Remember - we up north have 4 hour outages, with 30 mins either way for good measure.We have a scheduled 8-5 outage next week and I'll try to remember the thermometer then. Good to know though that 2 hours made no difference at all.
LOL! The pity is that we need the contents of the refrigerator when the blackout occurs. There seems to be a need to eat as soon as the lights go out. :)

Bwana have your blackouts happened as scheduled?It helps to know what you're looking for before you open the door :) We opened ours up several times during the outage.

As far as sticking to schedule - you can set your clock by it. NMMM has been pretty good in that regard so far.

[Moederloos]

Bwana: Two hours is fine. Google along the lines of "power outage fridge temperature 2 4" for some really good links.

When the 4 hour outages were posted, and a thread started on this, I mentioned the 4 hours were pushing the safety issues. Also - and this is a bigger issue - "open" fridges etc in food stores cool faster - and not all shopkeepers are that, uhm, concerned as to the quality of their merchandise. While I am aware that the health practices of a shop keeper are not the responsibility of Eskom et al, it is concerning.

[zambussi]

So is the crime doesn't get us, and the electricity doesn't get us, the bad food will ?

[Moederloos]

So is the crime doesn't get us, and the electricity doesn't get us, the bad food will ?

Heh - well - forewarned is fore armed.

No one can blame me if their young child gets deathly ill from salmonella poisoning from eating a bad piece of chicken.

[DJ...]

Heh - well - forewarned is fore armed.

No one can blame me if their young child gets deathly ill from salmonella poisoning from eating a bad piece of chicken.

I wasnt planning on holding you accountable in the 1st place. Remember, we dont do that in South Africa.

[Moederloos]

I wasnt planning on holding you accountable in the 1st place. Remember, we dont do that in South Africa.

:D

[bwana]

Bwana: Two hours is fine. Google along the lines of "power outage fridge temperature 2 4" for some really good links.

When the 4 hour outages were posted, and a thread started on this, I mentioned the 4 hours were pushing the safety issues. Also - and this is a bigger issue - "open" fridges etc in food stores cool faster - and not all shopkeepers are that, uhm, concerned as to the quality of their merchandise. While I am aware that the health practices of a shop keeper are not the responsibility of Eskom et al, it is concerning.As I said - I'll try to measure the effect next weeks nine hour outage has on the internal temp of the fridge. My FiL has a probe which has a cord that would probably only minimally disrupt the seal - maybe he'll lend it to me in aid of my kitchen science project :D

[Road runner]

It sounds like the transformer bus bars are being stripped out when the blackouts occur here in Peeee eeee.

[Moederloos]

OK - some more observations.

We had load shedding on Friday, 4 hours. My usage for Friday was 35KW.
Saturday and Sunday I used 35KW per day as well. I use 35KW every day - with very little variation (maybe 34 one day, 36 the next, but the average is 35 - and over a month, it averages to 35KW per day as well).

So, how is load shedding saving anything?

[lcbxx]

How about this: Loadshedding is saving ESKOM money.

Has anyone given thought to the possibility that Eskom might have enough generation capabilities meet demands, but that they might not have the capital to cover the costs of electricity generation?

Perhaps they are trying to stockpile some coal for the winter...or perhaps they can't afford the coal and have to ration in order to pay the R20m bonuses this year.

That would explain the 53% hike they requested. Perhaps loadshedding has got nothing to do with an electricity grid under pressure? Perhaps it has more to do with the fact that Eskom cannot produce electricity at a profit (partly thanks to their dumb Aluminum smelters agreements & others) and therefore cut the power to save their own financial behinds...