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Question of the Day: How do you normally pay for purchases in stores?
semiautomatix
Honorary Master
The full AfriForum BEE argument
AfriForum, the civil rights initiative established by Solidarity, this morning succeeded in submitting an application at a post office in Pretoria to buy some of Vodacom’s YeboYethu black empowerment shares on behalf of an empoverished young “white” resident of Bethlehem settlement. AfriForum will monitor whether the shares will indeed be allocated and will take legal action if the shares are not allocated. According to the prospectus of Vodacom, all applicants will be informed within 30 days after 11 September 2008 whether their applications for shares had been successful.
Bethlehem received media attention recently when Mr Jacob Zuma stated during a visit to this settlement to the impoverished “whites” living there that poverty knows no colour. The Bethlehem resident on behalf of whom AfriForum would like to buy the shares, is a minor boy, who up to a week ago still lived in a wooded area in the vicinity of Irene and who owns no property at all.
According to Kallie Kriel, CEO of AfriForum, his organisation would like to use this step amongst other things to establish whether the YeboYethu shares scheme genuinely is aimed at eradicating poverty and inequalities in the country, or whether the eradication of inequalities merely is a smoke-screen to justify racial discrimination. If the application for shares by an impoverished “white” were to be rejected, it would, in Kriel’s opinion, amount to unfair racial discrimination which could be challenged in court. Kriel stated that poor “whites” are an integral part of those who find themselves in an unequal position in the country and therefore should not be excluded from empowerment schemes.
In terms of the YeboYethu scheme, “black” investors get a total exposure of R15 625 in Vodacom SA for every R2 500 invested. This is realized by giving discount on the shares, financed from future dividends. According to YeboYethu’s rules, “black” people refers to Africans, Indians, brown and Chinese individuals. Given the lack of legislation pertaining to racial classification and objective measures for classification, Kriel emphasised that no legal framework exists in terms of which Vodacom can claim that empoverished residents of Bethlehem are not Africans.
Kriel indicated that the residents of Bethlehem with “pale” complexions regard themselves to be Africans, as they feel themselves to be deeply committed to the continent. In light of the fact that racial classification legislation had already been revoked 15 years ago, the residents, according to Kriel, call on President Thabo Mbeki’s definition of an African, as contained in his “I am an African” speech. On 8 May 1996, President Mbeki said at the adoption of the country’s Constitution in Parliament in this speech: “The constitution whose adoption we celebrate constitutes an unequivocal statement that we refuse to accept that our Africanness shall be defined by our race, colour, gender or historical origins.“
Kriel emphasised that AfriForum is in favour of inequalities and poverty being eradicated, but that the YeboYethu offer will contribute little in this regard, and will rather increase inequalities in our society. He pointed out that Vodacom’s racial requirements will for example make it possible for a “black” millionaire to purchase YeboYethu shares, while the impoverished, unemployed “white” residents of Bethlehem settlement and similar areas will be excluded from the opportunity, and most impoverished “blacks” will still not have money to buy shares. The new “black” elite will therefore in Kriel’s opinion be the only group to benefit from Vodacom’s racial prerequisites, at the cost of the poor of all communities.
AfriForum suggests that income level rather than race is a better criterion in terms of which to eradicate inequalities and poverty. If the YeboYethu shares options were to be offered to all who, for example, have an income of less than R1 000 per month, it would in Kriel’s opinion achieve much more in the process of eradicating inequalities. The majority of people who would then benefit from the scheme, would probably still be “black”, but they would be benefitting because of their level of need, and not their race, while poor “whites” would not be excluded either.
AfriForum, the civil rights initiative established by Solidarity, this morning succeeded in submitting an application at a post office in Pretoria to buy some of Vodacom’s YeboYethu black empowerment shares on behalf of an empoverished young “white” resident of Bethlehem settlement. AfriForum will monitor whether the shares will indeed be allocated and will take legal action if the shares are not allocated. According to the prospectus of Vodacom, all applicants will be informed within 30 days after 11 September 2008 whether their applications for shares had been successful.
Bethlehem received media attention recently when Mr Jacob Zuma stated during a visit to this settlement to the impoverished “whites” living there that poverty knows no colour. The Bethlehem resident on behalf of whom AfriForum would like to buy the shares, is a minor boy, who up to a week ago still lived in a wooded area in the vicinity of Irene and who owns no property at all.
According to Kallie Kriel, CEO of AfriForum, his organisation would like to use this step amongst other things to establish whether the YeboYethu shares scheme genuinely is aimed at eradicating poverty and inequalities in the country, or whether the eradication of inequalities merely is a smoke-screen to justify racial discrimination. If the application for shares by an impoverished “white” were to be rejected, it would, in Kriel’s opinion, amount to unfair racial discrimination which could be challenged in court. Kriel stated that poor “whites” are an integral part of those who find themselves in an unequal position in the country and therefore should not be excluded from empowerment schemes.
In terms of the YeboYethu scheme, “black” investors get a total exposure of R15 625 in Vodacom SA for every R2 500 invested. This is realized by giving discount on the shares, financed from future dividends. According to YeboYethu’s rules, “black” people refers to Africans, Indians, brown and Chinese individuals. Given the lack of legislation pertaining to racial classification and objective measures for classification, Kriel emphasised that no legal framework exists in terms of which Vodacom can claim that empoverished residents of Bethlehem are not Africans.
Kriel indicated that the residents of Bethlehem with “pale” complexions regard themselves to be Africans, as they feel themselves to be deeply committed to the continent. In light of the fact that racial classification legislation had already been revoked 15 years ago, the residents, according to Kriel, call on President Thabo Mbeki’s definition of an African, as contained in his “I am an African” speech. On 8 May 1996, President Mbeki said at the adoption of the country’s Constitution in Parliament in this speech: “The constitution whose adoption we celebrate constitutes an unequivocal statement that we refuse to accept that our Africanness shall be defined by our race, colour, gender or historical origins.“
Kriel emphasised that AfriForum is in favour of inequalities and poverty being eradicated, but that the YeboYethu offer will contribute little in this regard, and will rather increase inequalities in our society. He pointed out that Vodacom’s racial requirements will for example make it possible for a “black” millionaire to purchase YeboYethu shares, while the impoverished, unemployed “white” residents of Bethlehem settlement and similar areas will be excluded from the opportunity, and most impoverished “blacks” will still not have money to buy shares. The new “black” elite will therefore in Kriel’s opinion be the only group to benefit from Vodacom’s racial prerequisites, at the cost of the poor of all communities.
AfriForum suggests that income level rather than race is a better criterion in terms of which to eradicate inequalities and poverty. If the YeboYethu shares options were to be offered to all who, for example, have an income of less than R1 000 per month, it would in Kriel’s opinion achieve much more in the process of eradicating inequalities. The majority of people who would then benefit from the scheme, would probably still be “black”, but they would be benefitting because of their level of need, and not their race, while poor “whites” would not be excluded either.
What next? We will be allowed equal opportunity in the job market? What is this world coming to? Imagine all people being treated as equals irrespective of race. Nah. Of course not. Just kidding. Return to your regular broadcast.
semiautomatix
Honorary Master
Otherwise, once again, the system will be exploited by huge BEE conglomerates without concern to their impoverished "comrades". *sigh*
Shake&Bake
Party Liaison
I applaud this effort by AfriForum.
Here's hoping that they succeed!
Here's hoping that they succeed!
I'd like the lawyers to try my angle as well:
During apartheid, a white male or (female for that matter) who stood up against apartheid was also discriminated against and life was made very difficult, especially for those who were publicly very outspoken. Current BEE laws dont account for these folk of which there were many, including my family (in a very outspoken manner). However these same white folk are now discriminated against by the very government that they fought to have put in place. In a democratic society that they put their lives on the line for. And in what is supposed to be the beginning of a racist-free South Africa.
Surely these honourable members of our rainbow nation should not be precluded from participating in important parts of our economy, purely because they were not black? They were also a part of the struggle. Sure, they might not have blown up cars or made up kill the whitey songs, but they did what they could within the limitations of the racist government's iron fist, without bloodshed. Do we really gauge the morality of a person by the amount of blood they shed for their cause? Have we not moved on since the middle ages?
If we are to base our laws of who is considered poor on skin colour and ethnicity alone, then we merely discriminate against a very valuable group of people who (without acknowledgement) helped to change the course of history and set our beautiful country on the path towards democracy, however flawed some of you feel it might currently be. And if we are to continue grouping people based on skin colour, then we will never allow our country and its people a chance to learn from our mistakes and become the inspirational, racist-free country that we were meant to be.
I sincerely hope that someone looks for new ways to effectively argue against racial classification, and discrimination based on the result. My opinion is that it is discriminatory and should be against our constitution regardless of which end of the stick you are on, white or non. Any doctor will tell you that you dont cure a cold, you merely treat the symptoms and advise preventative measures. We are treating our symptoms without taking any preventative measures in my opinion. We solve a long-standing race issue with temporary satisfaction for a few, and unfulfilled promises to the masses. The cause of our common cold is the uneducated and impoverished masses. By treating the root of the problem through massive investment in infrastructure and education in these areas, you begin to build up that immune system for our country.
What we need is reform for the people. A re-allocation of the budget. Tighter financial controls in place. Accountability. Investment. Education. And an open and honest stance on communication from our leaders. Sounds too perfect doesnt it? Well its not - every large company employs these elements and there is no reason why the model cannot be adopted in the public sector effectively.
And there is no reason why white South Africans are not allowed to partake in parts of our country because of laws passed and enforced by racists from what is now a tainted past - I think we all agree on this. I guess thats the point I was trying to make...
During apartheid, a white male or (female for that matter) who stood up against apartheid was also discriminated against and life was made very difficult, especially for those who were publicly very outspoken. Current BEE laws dont account for these folk of which there were many, including my family (in a very outspoken manner). However these same white folk are now discriminated against by the very government that they fought to have put in place. In a democratic society that they put their lives on the line for. And in what is supposed to be the beginning of a racist-free South Africa.
Surely these honourable members of our rainbow nation should not be precluded from participating in important parts of our economy, purely because they were not black? They were also a part of the struggle. Sure, they might not have blown up cars or made up kill the whitey songs, but they did what they could within the limitations of the racist government's iron fist, without bloodshed. Do we really gauge the morality of a person by the amount of blood they shed for their cause? Have we not moved on since the middle ages?
If we are to base our laws of who is considered poor on skin colour and ethnicity alone, then we merely discriminate against a very valuable group of people who (without acknowledgement) helped to change the course of history and set our beautiful country on the path towards democracy, however flawed some of you feel it might currently be. And if we are to continue grouping people based on skin colour, then we will never allow our country and its people a chance to learn from our mistakes and become the inspirational, racist-free country that we were meant to be.
I sincerely hope that someone looks for new ways to effectively argue against racial classification, and discrimination based on the result. My opinion is that it is discriminatory and should be against our constitution regardless of which end of the stick you are on, white or non. Any doctor will tell you that you dont cure a cold, you merely treat the symptoms and advise preventative measures. We are treating our symptoms without taking any preventative measures in my opinion. We solve a long-standing race issue with temporary satisfaction for a few, and unfulfilled promises to the masses. The cause of our common cold is the uneducated and impoverished masses. By treating the root of the problem through massive investment in infrastructure and education in these areas, you begin to build up that immune system for our country.
What we need is reform for the people. A re-allocation of the budget. Tighter financial controls in place. Accountability. Investment. Education. And an open and honest stance on communication from our leaders. Sounds too perfect doesnt it? Well its not - every large company employs these elements and there is no reason why the model cannot be adopted in the public sector effectively.
And there is no reason why white South Africans are not allowed to partake in parts of our country because of laws passed and enforced by racists from what is now a tainted past - I think we all agree on this. I guess thats the point I was trying to make...
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Lord Anubis
Expert Member
as a currently disadvantaged minority white, and being quarter jewish, is there any hope left that in my generation, in this country, some equality will be restored, which actually may hold out hope and propospects for my kids, true I was part of the ole SA, true I wasl iving and working and going about my life in a very non activist way, true I went along with the flow and didn't rock the boat, false I got everything on a platter, false I was given preferential treatment, false I was was favoured because I was white, true I swept floors and dug ditches and worked as contract worker, true I dragged myself out of it, true I worked my way up, true I paid for my own studies, true I suffered on a few pennies and left home young and built my own life up, true I did "national service", true now I am successful and moderately well of, true I don't feel very patriotic...why...because I am now a statistic, the wrong kind, when it comes to EE, AA, BBBEE...
At least we are making the move slowly to defining need on class... I have been to bethehem and seen these 'poor whites' these guys stand no chance... they couldn't make it in the old SA and noe the kids are struggling in the new sa against the face of bee.....
I really hope these guys get it right.....
I still belive all bee deals shoudl be based of taxable income... if you earn more that X you can't parttake and you have to you can't buy more that so many shares.. say 20-50k....
Another Commnet, its not even class that divide's us its education...... just scrap all the stupid arm's deal's and world cup and educate everyone to a descent matric(a-level or IEB) level.. for free.. 15 years later you have a country that wants more.. look at japan after get H-bombed... scrapped all defense and put it all into education.. 50years later super power...
Ps I rant about it but can't spell
I really hope these guys get it right.....
I still belive all bee deals shoudl be based of taxable income... if you earn more that X you can't parttake and you have to you can't buy more that so many shares.. say 20-50k....
Another Commnet, its not even class that divide's us its education...... just scrap all the stupid arm's deal's and world cup and educate everyone to a descent matric(a-level or IEB) level.. for free.. 15 years later you have a country that wants more.. look at japan after get H-bombed... scrapped all defense and put it all into education.. 50years later super power...
Ps I rant about it but can't spell
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Shake&Bake
Party Liaison
It made the news on Kfm this morning, though it seems they got it wrong and said the little guy they are applying for is in Pretoria...
As Vodacom contracts expire I will move our business contracts to their opposition. It's only 7 contracts and it will not make a a difference to them, but I will feel better by doing it. Im sick of this bull
LazyLion
King of de Jungle
It's all part of "the struggle"
With so many white people standing up for "injustice", I wonder why we had apartheid in the first place.
*Now where did I put that flame suit?*
I suppose they did a lot of what the blacks around Shaka did when he killed thousands of civilians. Thats life hey.
Dont forget, it was whites that voted to end Apartheid. Not blacks.. so they have always being around. Or do you also think that every German is a Jew hating Nazi?
You are pretty sick, and you got the flame you wanted.
Typical answer, like you did Black people a favour! You call that a flame? Come on, you can do better than that?
With so many white people standing up for "injustice", I wonder why we had apartheid in the first place.
*Now where did I put that flame suit?*
Oh the irony, incumbents of the <insert.current.regime.racial.grouping.here> broederbond can't see a problem with the legislation that favours them
.Oh the irony, incumbents of the <insert.current.regime.racial.grouping.here> broederbond can't see a problem with the legislation that favours them
Where, oh where have you seen me say that? Jumping to conclusions can make you look not too clever.