International bandwidth is expensive ????

microfast · May 2, 2004

One of Telkom's main argument to justify their high cost to the consumer is the cost of international bandwidth due to our location.

Telkom tell us that bandwidth between US-Europe is so cheap and this is supposed to explain the huge cost variations when comparing local with US broadband costs for example.

Many even sympathise with this logic - but is it all a lie ??

Of course it's a lie - there's bandwidth in the skies above us - more than we could ever utilise and it's cheap.

The world is a village and we are being regulated out of it.

Some have calculated that Sentech's mywireless offers bandwidth at about 1/20th of Telkom's ADSL costs - this proves the point.

Our location is no problem and bandwidth is no problem.

It is regulations and lack of de-regulation which is the problem.

It's all right above us - some minor changes to the rules could give us access to it.

BTTB · May 2, 2004

I tend to agree with your comments. Although I haven’t a clue what bandwidth costs? I think this is something that should be explored. I'm not sure how, but it needs to be investigated to prove ourselves especially if MyADSL is about to have a hearing with ICASA one of these days. Perhaps if we found out who supplies Telkom and them go digging around for information. This would help our case. And I'm sure ICASA would be all ears to hear the facts.
In actual fact if we had factual figures that showed Telkom exploiting the consumer, it would make a case for the Media. Telkom would then have to answer embarrassing questions from the media journalist, thus putting the Monopolistic Giant into further disrepute.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

microfast · May 2, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
.... Although I haven’t a clue what bandwidth costs? I think this is something that should be explored.... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Telkom and Sentech are just re-sellers of satellite bandwidth.

There are many other re-sellers of the same legal radio spectrum , but we cannot buy from them.

The ICASA regulations and tariffs are a scam and nothing but a mafia type protection racket.

The ICASA regulations and tariffs are anti-competitive.

Without the ICASA tariffs and regulations the whole convergence bill and all its regulatory intentions would fall to pieces.

This whole scam is designed to hi-jack the "internet" within the borders of South Africa.

The answer lies in the skies above us - it's cheap, available and just waiting to be utilised.
Just need a two-way transceiver - easy as pie - no Telkom - just you and the world - Freedom !

Catch a waycup South Africa - there's a small group of greedy people who stand in our way and we should not allow them to continue holding this country to ransom.

mbs · May 2, 2004

I still don't geddit - maybe I'm stoopid, but to me real freedom implies that you don't intentionally or inadvertently encroach on the freedom of others, otherwise you're just as guilty of stifling freedom as our current regulatory regime does.

So... the key question is - how do you guarantee this without regulation? And please note that I'm not saying that our current regulations are correct - they certainly need fixing. Competition by its very nature will also stifle such freedom, due to issues of affordability, accessibility, and so on. Please tell me how you envisage the promotion of real freedoms, if anyone could deploy a 2-way satlink - think of the numbers (cf. my posting elsewhere about school numbers, for example)...

antowan · May 2, 2004

It doesn't matter what Telkom says it costs, the regulation should change in order for somebody who can to develop an alternative network (be it wireless or not) that can surcomvent the costs! It is all about new business models and entrepreneurship! If something is not serving the needs of the customers, somebody else should be free enough to provide an alternative and better service!

He who does not understand the value of war at the right time, cannot comprehend the value of life at any time - Anonymous

Perdition · May 2, 2004

If we assume an exchange rate of R8/$ at the time Telkom invested in SAT-3 then they paid roughly R2850 per 64kb/s. Keep in mind that this is a ONCE OFF cost. Now think that one pays around R4000 PER MONTH per dedicated 64kb/s international and it becomes quite clear just how much we are being ripped off.

BTTB · May 2, 2004

I could just imagine Telkom's legal team squealing to ICASA if someone had to try these suggestions. So as you say the only way is to totally deregulate so that the masses can have freedom of choice. Competition is always good IMO. It keeps people on their toes and the level of service normally always improves. Business models that don’t conform go out of business.
I reckon in the not too distant future, we if we are still alive will look back at the stupidity of the situation. Like the masses of people in SA that were liberated after 1994. These people look back and ponder how they lived under those conditions and had to put up with it.
Saying this, I find it hard to grasp why the ANC cannot see what MyADSL is all about. Its just another form of liberation. They should know this. It's totally unjust as the state is merely protecting it's monetary assets at the expense of the Digital Revolution. An organisation challenging the state about Telecommunication in SA is no different in their ideals than what the ANC did when it challenged the Nat’s. The principles for what they fought for are slightly different, but the cause is the same. And hopefully the end result would be the same.
Some of the learned thinkers within the ANC's ranks should park themselves down for a minute and just think where SA is heading. They will soon realise that their policies are counter productive. But will they have the courage to face up to them like the Nat’s did. It would show people in SA that they are really committed to SA's Development and aren't merely milking the cow further.
.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

microfast · May 2, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mbs
I still don't geddit - maybe I'm stoopid, but to me real freedom implies that you don't intentionally or inadvertently encroach on the freedom of others,<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

mbs,

Option 1 : 2-way satellite from Telkom / Sentech 

very expensive
legal
obtainable
does not encroach on freedom of anyone.

Option 2 : 2-way satellite from overseas re-seller 

cheap
legal but only at huge cost
obtainable but only at huge cost
does not encroach on freedom of anyone.

 Both options 

same radio spectrum
same equipment
same satellite
same environmental impact (if any)

 Conclusions 

ICASA regulations and tariffs in place to protect monopolies.
Cheap internet bandwidth into South Africa not permitted.
We can get what we want but only at a premium.

you can add your own here ........

mbs · May 3, 2004

MICROFAST:

Gotcha. But surely those items under 'both options' demands regulation? I understand you're hammering on the issue of cost, and justifiably so too, but complete de-regulation and free-market competition as punted by some members of this forum would impact on other aspects as well, including those that you mention in your 'both options' category.

For example, the techies on this forum could relate to the allowable spectrum issue. The moment you constrain carriage to a specific range, so as not to disturb the reserved spectrum for military, civil defence, etc., then you have to promulgate regulatory provision - bang goes your complete de-regulation objective. So too regarding issues of technical compatibility, equipment standards, environmental alignment (as you say, if any), and so on. It would seem to me that all of these are as equally relevant to the whole issue of de-regulation, as are the 'social' issues of affordability, equal access, equable distribution, etc.

So... to sum up: it appears that complete de-regulation is a fallacy, and our current regulatory regime is equally inappropriate and farcical, particularly given its abuse by the likes of Telkrap - there must be a middle road, which I've been saying all along is *partial* regulation/de-regulation.

This implies continued consumer effort/action, to ensure change and consequent real societal development, stimulated by the technology we all just so cannot do without (my withdrawal jag due to being capped is now thankfully over - it's a new month: wonder how long I'll have unconstrained connectivity this time - dammit!! [

!] )

microfast · May 3, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by mbs

Gotcha. But surely those items under 'both options' demands regulation?.... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Agreed, but no anti-competitive regulations, no more
monopolistic protection for brothers and sisters [

] and
no more ridiculous shut-out tariffs.

And lastly full exposure and compensation for the theft that has gone on too long !

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
But surely those items under 'both options' demands regulation?
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

All the technical regulations are in place - no need for major change here -
it's the tariff and the regulation which prevents us from sharing
this cheap available bandwidth with our neighbours which is the real problem.

quik · May 3, 2004

I believe the high cost Telkom are referring to is the SAT3 connection to the UK. They think the SA consumer is stupid and would just accept this nonsence.

I know for a fact that the price Telkom charge for SAT3 international bandwidth is at least 5 times more than what they cost it. And for the bulk they buy, it probably becomes alot cheaper. The line has been there quite a while so I'm sure their portion of the line has been subsidised 10 times over by now, so all that would remain is the bandwidth cost. And they don't just use SAT3, most of their international bandwidth, especially ADSL is probably routed through satelite, which is WAY cheaper.

Looking at pings confirm this as you would get sub-100ms pings to the UK using SAT3 connectivity. So where exactly does this high cost they refer to come from ??

LIES, ALL LIES...

How long is Telkom going to kick the SA consumer in the face ?
Strange thing is, we recover, then just assume the position again...

Video didn't kill the radio star... Telkom did

microfast · May 3, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by quik
They think the SA consumer is stupid and would just accept this nonsence.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Maybe I will submit a request for a two-way satellite license with ICASA and see what flows.

Maybe I will also make a submission to the Competition Commission as well.

MICROFAST
The source for data recovery
Recovering Fujitsu Hard disk drives for years.

d0b33 · Jul 16, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by microfast
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
.... Although I haven’t a clue what bandwidth costs? I think this is something that should be explored.... <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Telkom and Sentech are just re-sellers of satellite bandwidth.

There are many other re-sellers of the same legal radio spectrum , but we cannot buy from them.

The ICASA regulations and tariffs are a scam and nothing but a mafia type protection racket.

The ICASA regulations and tariffs are anti-competitive.

Without the ICASA tariffs and regulations the whole convergence bill and all its regulatory intentions would fall to pieces.

This whole scam is designed to hi-jack the "internet" within the borders of South Africa.

The answer lies in the skies above us - it's cheap, available and just waiting to be utilised.
Just need a two-way transceiver - easy as pie - no Telkom - just you and the world - Freedom !

Catch a waycup South Africa - there's a small group of greedy people who stand in our way and we should not allow them to continue holding this country to ransom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

so we being sc3$%d both ways[

!][V]

Burny1 · Aug 13, 2004

It is quite interesting to read all the threads that've been running on this forum. Everyone's complaining, from lack of deregulation to sh+++y bandwidth. The majority of people expect government to step in and either finally deregulate the industry, or force Telkom to sell bandwidth at acceptable prices. With this I fully agree. If it was possible, I would be the first to set up my own links to international ISPs. Having said that, it seems that everyone forgets that our government unfortunately still sees internet access and telephones as a luxury, even if some departments try to paint a different picture. Just look at the cost of cellphone calls. Now who are the people that can afford luxury items? Definately not the average man on the street. F&**k, the average man just fights for survival, putting food on the table, after they paid their cellphone calls. Until the government is shown exactly what they are doing to the economy (not just insinuations and accusations, but real figures) and in the end to the man on the street, we will always have to pay a premium. They still need to make their couple of millions, like in the good old days when it was very profitable to be in government. It would really be nice if at some point someone in government will have the balls to stand up and say, enough is enough. Then again, it would be really nice to be able give yourself a BJ, very unlikely, but a possibility.

loosecannon · Aug 14, 2004

free up technology and you will be able to create a whole new economy and empower people ...

4.5Billion Profit 30% goes out the country ...
from working in IT at telkom i know how much is spent on procuring software/services from overseas this shouldd stop ...

we need to build a strong "E"conomy as india has done through deregulation and is now the global leader in outsourced IT we are now catching up where at one stage if there was foresight we coulf have been the leader ...

if telkom prices come down the money saved will be spent on other projects locally further stimulating the economy ...

there is more money to be gained by the goverment by deregulation than anything else this includes a reduction in social spending on those who now have jobs in the new IT sector ...

we need to think out the box i dont give a flying f*** if it is not deregulated as long as the motive of the incumbant is to develop the country and not make some token BEE's super wealthy and ship money i worked my ass off overseas to find the american economy while ours colapses ...

s*** keep telkom as a monopoly controled by the goverment but let the goverment represent the people and stop the rape we are endureing ...

Burny1 · Aug 15, 2004

I agree 100% with you LC [

]

ratezone · Aug 28, 2004

Our poor neighbour Mozambique, uses mostly Satellite bandwidth. Since UniNet started there in 2001, there has been a proliferation of Broadband internet services.
Today in Maputo there are more than 4 ISP's offering 24hr broadband internet for less thatn USD55 per month = +_ R350 per month.

www.uninet.co.mz
www.intra.co.mz
www.tvcabo.co.mz
www.tropical.co.mz

Telkom has no excuse for high broadband prices.

The SA government should learn some lessons from thier African neighbours. Most of these services run via Wireless, one of them via cable. And all are private initiatives, no government involvement.

freeek · Aug 28, 2004

www.intra.co.mz is a 3G service provider. Interesting. I wonder what problems they having if any compared to sentech

..- dot dot dash

dorris · Aug 30, 2004

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Option 2 : 2-way satellite from overseas re-seller

cheap
legal but only at huge cost
obtainable but only at huge cost
does not encroach on freedom of anyone.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

is it really that cheap, I checked it out a while ago, and it seemed quite expensive to me, is there a factor I'm missing, the links below are 2 providers pricing schemes.

http://www.highspeedsat.com/images/europe/eame/satlynxservices.jpg
http://www.highspeedsat.com/images/europe/eame/linkstarservices.jpg
these both look unpleasant, even by SA standards, capped, very expensive etc, only diff is that after hours traffic doesn't count towards cap (where would our after ours be calculated, GMT)

what stops us implementing a cheap satellite connection on wireless mesh, which the users put money into a pool monthly to pay for the services.
If we already crossing boundaries with our networks, we've broken that law already, which means we might as well be breaking sat communications, who could catch someone getting sat bandwidth, is very directional signal.
its time to start taking matters into our own hands, regulators and government won't do anything to help.

nOhIwAy · Aug 30, 2004

From Telkom's point of view, satellite services are a threat.

Bi-directional satellite technology has many advantages over terrestrial services. "There is more bandwidth available via satellite at lower cost," Hardy says. The technology allows multicasting, meaning that everyone can share the feed at the same time without loss of bandwidth and without additional cost. This makes it a potentially extremely viable option for vendors.

http://www.sacm.co.za/FeatureTitle.asp?NewsID=3305

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