Hellkom.co.za facing legal action from Telkom [Archive]

MaD

10-08-2004, 10:53 PM

As per e-mail:

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Gregg Stirton
CAPE TOWN

Dear Sir

SOUTH AFRICA - Trade mark registration no. 91/5809 TELKOM and others in class 35 in the name of Telkom SA Limited and objection to website
telkomsucks.Ocatch.com

1. We act on behalf of Telkom SA Limited.

2. Our client is the proprietor in South Africa of the well-known
TELKOM and Keypad logo (TELKOM) trade marks in various classes. We
attach as Annexure "A" details of our client's trade mark
registrations. We collectively refer to the above trade marks as the
'TELKOM' trade marks.

3. Our client has spent considerable time, money and effort in the
promotion and establishment of this trade mark, and as a result, the
mark has become known in the relevant trade sectors in South Africa and
internationally. As a result of this extensive use, our client has
acquired a reputation and goodwill in its mark, and therefore also has
common law rights in its TELKOM trade marks, worldwide.

4. Accordingly, our client is also entitled to prevent the use by
another person of its registered trade mark in relation to goods or
services, if the use would be likely to take unfair advantage of, or be
detrimental to, the distinctive character or repute of our client's
registered trade mark. Section 34(1)(c) and Section 35 of the Trade
Marks Act no. 94 of 1993 apply in this regard. Furthermore, our client
is also entitled to protection of its well-known trade mark in terms of
Article 6(1)bis of the Paris Convention.

5. Our client has been made aware of the fact that you are the
subscribing partner of the domain name telkomsucks.Ocatch.com. This
domain name is confusingly similar to our client's well-known TELKOM
trade mark. You are further using various logos, such as HELLKOM,
TELSCUM, MELK-HOM, TELKON, TELSKAM, MONOPOLY-DOTCOM, GELDBOM, DJOUMA, EXPENSIVE on your website that are confusingly similar to our client's TELKOM trade mark.

6. Your unauthorized use of our client's trade mark in this
manner, takes unfair advantage of, and/or is detrimental to the
distinctive character or repute of our client's TELKOM trade mark, and
thus infringes Section 34(1)(c) of the Act. Your actions also amount to
unlawful competition, at common law but are also defamatory in nature.

7. Therefore, your registration of the domain name furthermore
amounts to male fide use of our client's trade mark, and is thus
objectionable. It also constitutes defamation of our client. Our
client is therefore entitled to object to the domain name and the use of
the disparaging logos. Our client is also entitled to apply to the High
Court in the United States for an interdict against you based on the
above.

8. Accordingly we call upon you immediately to:

8.1 cease all use of and disenable the domain name
www.telkomsucks.Ocatch.com or any other name confusingly or
deceptively similar to our client's TELKOM trade mark, as you are no
doubt unilaterally entitled to do so;

8.2 cease all use of the infringing marks mentioned in
paragraph 5 above, or any other marks/logos that
are confusingly similar to our client's TELKOM trade
mark.

8.3 undertake, in writing, never to make any unauthorized use of our
client's TELKOM trade mark, or any confusingly or deceptively similar
trade mark, in any manner or form whatsoever, again in future;

9. We require your response by no later than Friday, 13 August
2004. Should you fail to comply with our demands, we will take our
client's instructions on instituting further action against you, as
well as claiming damages against you in an amount of no less than R5
million.

Yours faithfully
ADAMS & ADAMS

Ms N Harryparsad
obo J F STANDER

PS: Please note that the annexure are voluminous, and will follow
separately.

Tel : + 27 12 481 1707
Fax: +27 12 362 6437
Jan@adamsadams.co.za
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Where others have progress, we have Telkom.
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za

Goobie

10-08-2004, 11:01 PM

"... MONOPOLY-DOTCOM...that are confusingly similar to our client's TELKOM trade mark."

ROFL! NO argument there!

So MaD, are you up for the challenge? Please, give'em hell! I'm behind you all the way, as I'm sure everybody here is.

BTTB

10-08-2004, 11:20 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an attorney, but I do have quite a good memory. Since when was Email Post Legitimised as a Legal Method for Attorneys Etc to threaten people?
I stand corrected, but I thought legal threats could only be valid if they were Registered, Faxed and Confirmed, or hand delivered to a person, domicilum citandi et executandi.
What if the internet crashed or you got a virus or your hard drive crashed. How could you print out the email or even know that it existed. You might even be away on holiday. This is nonsense. It isn't safe to send critical legal messages via email, especially ones that threaten the person with R5 million. This is not the way of the legal world. Possibly for sending memos and stuff, it might be fine, but not this sort of threats.

It is possible that this could be a scam and you have been hoaxed. I mean look at the date....Friday, 13 August....eeeeek.

I say move the letter to the trash bin where it belongs. If it turns out to be something to worry about, you have my full support in whatever you decide to do. I'm sure everyone here will back you. And by the time this gets to the press, the whole of South Africa will know about it. Telkom is treading on thin ice. It could blow up in their face. If I was them, I would of kept my mouth shut. Telkom hasn't got a good image. This would just add fuel to the fire.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

hArTh

10-08-2004, 11:29 PM

I'm sure mad is working on a response strategy. Whatever he decides ... I damn well expect everyone to back him 100% with press activism, money, all round support and anything else he needs.

This oke is fighting for what WE all want ... when he needs our help we sure as ***** better be there to support HIM 100%.

-Information anarchist-
www.sentechhatesfreespeech.org.za
I support:
www.telkom.***kensuig.co.za
www.poopband.co.za
www.hellkom.co.za

Strobemeister

10-08-2004, 11:53 PM

Mad, thats a serious threat. Be careful. These fatcats are used 2 throwing their weight around, & let us know if u need help with anything.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

dorris

11-08-2004, 12:23 AM

To keep yourself safe, drop the telkomsucks.ocatch domain, they never mentioned anything about hellkom, and can't hold you liable to it.

Arent these the same guys that shut down therodents other sites a few years back, they are trying to scare you <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">undertake, in writing, never to make any unauthorized use of our
client's TELKOM trade mark, or any confusingly or deceptively similar
trade mark, in any manner or form whatsoever, again in future;
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
this is trying to bully you into signing away your freedom of speech before you seek proper legal counsel before friday.
I recommend you remove your logos, and only once you are 100% sure they don't have anything on you, put back the logos, I know nothing about law, but maybe telkomsucks could be trademark infringement, although you making no money out of it.
By dropping the telkomsucks domain and logos, you can feign some compliance, to extend your window to regroup from your side, before signing away your freedom of speech

Although, Telkom is not unique, there are several other possibly independant telecommunications company's called telkom
www.telkom.co.id - (telkom indonesia)
www.telkom.co.ke - (telkom kenya)
to name a few.
but browsing around, it seems you have done your research, I'm basing this on the article http://www.marketingweb.co.za/news/marketing/333892.htm

Good Luck, whatever you do, I am behind you all the way, possibly bring this up with Carte Blanche again, causing a follow up :))

BTTB

11-08-2004, 12:28 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Good Luck, whatever you do, I am behind you all the way, possibly bring this up with Carte Blanche again, causing a follow up :))<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Carte Blanche will have a follow up and at this stage I'm sure they will interview Mad again. He can tell Carte Blanche how Telkom is bullying him into submission etc.

Telkom has really stooped down low IMO. Proudly South African, my foot.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

dorris

11-08-2004, 12:35 AM

up till now, telkom knew about hellkom, and weren't feeling threatened by it enough to bother.
I actually can't decide whether its good or bad news, either the carte blanche story was good, and hurt telkom somehow, or caused their anylists to think it will hurt telkom in the near future, and they should get rid of you.
Or, YOU JUST PISSED OFF THE BEAST IN A HUGE WAY.
whichever one it was, big UPS, but be safe, R5mil is a lot of beans
*****************edit below**********************
Just noticed your update with the content on hellkom, seems you've done all your homework quite sufficiently, and are a worthy adversary, just think, their first letter is now useless, you've punched a hole worth +R2000 into telkom for the first letter, and they'll probably get billed nicely to replace telkomsucks with hellkom in the 2nd letter you will recieve.
[}:)]KOMRocks.co.za

Mean_Monster

11-08-2004, 05:44 AM

Once the SNO kicks in (when I am retiring and I am only in my 20's) Will that logo be worth R 5 Million? [:p]

antowan

11-08-2004, 07:24 AM

The funny thing about this is that the name and the logo was built using public money when Telkom was still a government parastatal in the true sense of the word.

Now they come and say that they built the name and logo with great time and effort. What we should do is print out 6 x 6 foot posters that we can stick onto legal publicly viewable locations. Little stickers for cars and windows and email the whole country!

We can give Telkom a run for their money in more than one way!

Take up the fight guys in a legal way! We have to keep our side clean. TELKOM SUCKS!!!!

Cheers
Antowan

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###

podo

11-08-2004, 07:34 AM

MaD,

SUE THEM FIRST.

Yes, you heard me. Talk to your legal council today and enquire about the possibilities of filing suit against Telkom first. In most countries with a common law or civil law system, the courts will usually be biased in favour of the person who files first. If it is possible financially and logistically, get your lawyer to file before Friday, that won't be the response Telkom wanted, but it's a response allright. I'm not too sure what you might sue them for, but your lawyer will be able to help you with that. Since you are not making money from Hellkom and since you are not a competitor, they can not claim unfair competition. Your right to free speech is protected under the constitution, and since you are not doing this for money, it is free speech.

Depending on the laws in force, you should at least be able to ask a court to give you an injunction preventing Telkom from further infringing on your right to free speech. I'm not absolutely sure if our legal system allows for "fair use" in copyrights, but since it is based mainly on common law, we should have such a provision. If we do, your lawyer can argue that since you are not making a profit from the use of the logos, and since your are not competing with Telkom, you have the right to use their logos for research or parody. Sue them for that right too.

Just make sure your lawyer stays realistic in terms of what you are suing for. Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to claim damages, in any amount, from Telkom. Since they have not directly done anything unfairly to cost you any amount of money, the courts will see your case as a money grab, and you will probably end up paying Telkom's legal fees. You could try to get them to pay your legal fees though, talk to your lawyer and find out what he or she suggests you do in this regard.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development

pat22

11-08-2004, 07:49 AM

MaD

I wouldn’t worry. These things always arrive in brown envelopes and need your paw print in the received box.

Email is not a legit form of delivery for these things.

BTTB

11-08-2004, 08:14 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> MaD

I wouldn’t worry. These things always arrive in brown envelopes and need your paw print in the received box.

Email is not a legit form of delivery for these things.
Go to Top of Page<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I echo that.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Since they have not directly done anything unfairly to cost you any amount of money, the courts will see your case as a money grab<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Hehehe. i not so sure the rest of SA would agree with that. Telkom costs us millions everyday. Any reasonable court would view Telkom's position as a "money grabber". For instance, the Competitions Tribunal has ruled that Telkom abused its monopolistic position with the VANS operators.

Mad. You will find heaps of support here. And post every detail of Telkom's abuse on this site and on Hellkom.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

kaspaas

11-08-2004, 08:23 AM

By publishing the letter here, MaD has acknowledged that he has received the letter.

You basically have two options:

Fight or surrender.

If you fight, Telkom will abuse the legal system with its vast cash reserves no ordinary person has access to. Their lawyers will simply generate enough issues to bancrupt you and then declare in public "a victory for justice" when you don't have anymore resources to fight them

Or you can surrender. Rodent proved that that was a very successfull option.

South Africa needs World Class Broadband at World Competitive Prices.

BTTB

11-08-2004, 08:30 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> By publishing the letter here, MaD has acknowledged that he has received the letter.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought of that. Hmmmm. As I said I'm not a lawyer.

If Mad backs down, he has still the whole dirty saga on record to air to the whole of SA. And this is more valuable than a domain name. Some overseas people could host the logos with a hyperlink back to Hellkom. Just a thought. Lots of Ex Pats who have left SA for many reasons, but some because of Telkom's hold over the IT market.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Sabre

11-08-2004, 10:24 AM

MaD,

I'm sure there are a whole lot of people on this forum that would support your cause both financially or with bodies.

Keep it up, the more press this receives the less likely the government will allow it (they are a significant shareholder after all)

podo

11-08-2004, 10:50 AM

MaD,

As an update to my previous post about taking action first. If it isn't financially possible for you to do this personally, you might want to consider contacting the Electronic Frontier Foundation. They are a non profit organization who defend the rights of individuals around the world to speak freely. They have recently helped several web sites defend their right to parody, and I am sure they will be able to assist you with your cause, both with advice and financing for a court case. You can contact with the EFF via their web site at http://www.eff.org/

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development

donn

11-08-2004, 11:42 AM

http://www.mybroadband.co.za/news/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=237

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
Telkom has threatened legal action against Helkom owner Gregg Stirton. Telkom’s objection hinges on the misuse of the Telkom trademark and states that Helkom’s misuse of this trademark negatively impacts their reputation, which according to Telkom they have endeavored to uphold nationally and internationally.

They further object to the ‘confusingly similar’ logos such as Hellkom, Telscum, Melk-Hom, Telkon, Telskam etc. with the comment that these logos take unfair advantage of Telkom’s ‘distinctive character’. The actions taken by Helkom are deemed as amounting to unlawful competition and are defamatory in nature.

Telkom are requesting that Stirton respond by Friday, 13 August 2004. He must cease to use logos similar to the Telkom trademark and cease use of the domain name www.telkomsucks.Ocatch.com . Should Stirton not comply with these demands Telkom will take further action and sue for an amount of no less than R5 million.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The lawyers may be confused by the "confusingly similar" icons, but the rest of us mortals know the difference.

From www.hellkom.co.za
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
R5 million!?! Sizwe, please help me out here, you have any change lying around? By the way, telkomsucks.0catch.com (with a zero, not an 'O') is the old site - Hellkom.co.za is the new one. Bigger & better. The logo's are classified as parody, even my little pet tree knows that. Also worthy of mention is that I do, in fact, have legal aid. And - *cough* - the old site doesn't exist anymore. Now that's just embarrassing. This reminds me of the schoolyard scene we see in movies all too often: Bully vs. Little Kid, everyone watches. A scuffle ensues. Punches land, hair is pulled. Everyone boo's Bully. Bully shunned from playground and becomes underdog. A simple chain of events, and as they say, history always repeats itself.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I thought it might be a good idea to point out to the lawyer from the illustrious firm of Adams & Adams, Mr J F Stander, and the Telkom Media relations officer, that the "good name" of Telkom wasn't as good as he liked to think.

Perhaps other readers would like to tell "Jan" just what they think about the lawsuit.

I open the bidding as follows:
>>>
To: Jan@adamsadams.co.za
Cc: Maharar7@telkom.co.za
Sent: Wednesday, August 11, 2004 10:01 AM
Subject: Telkom

Dear Mr J F Stander

Your email to Gregg Stirton regarding Telkom's "good name" refers.

I refer you to the following web site link, to see what kind of "good name"
your client really has.

www.hellopeter.com

In particular, all the customer complaints listed in page after page in the
section "Companies that Don't Care"

http://www.hellopeter.com/cwd.asp

and if you click on the "TELKOM" link you'll see how happy your cleint's
customers really are.

http://www.hellopeter.com/search.asp?searchby=1000&location=&city=&Country=0&supplier=TELJOY&keyword=&industry=non&alias=

Of course, your client is too boring to realise just how ironic it is when
you phone 10210 and get asked "How can I provide you with excellent service
today" only to get the same old same old.

And since you are clearly unable to distinguish between robust criticism,
parody and trademark violations, (shame, I always thought Adams & Adams were
experts in the field, but now you prove otherwise), are you going to sue me
too?

Please do. The publicity will be worth it ;) I the cartoon alone is worth
around R4 billion or so. Just think of the legal fees you could run up! The
possibilities are endless.

Are you going to sue Carte Blanche as well? Why not?

Yours sincerely

Donn Edwards
083-310-4966

http://privacy.4mg.com/#TELKOM

<<<

Anyone else wish to mail him too? I have checked: his name and phone number is accurate according to the Adams & Adams web site. We don't know if the mail was forged, though.

I wonder whether the reason why they are suing in connection with the .com site is so that they can do it in the US and get more money?

caroper

11-08-2004, 12:35 PM

I find this line interesting:

"Our client is also entitled to apply to the High Court in the United States for an interdict against you based on the above."

Is that because it is a .com address?

ajax

11-08-2004, 12:48 PM

I've got a list of approximately 700 email newsletters I can subscribe Jan too [}:)]

loosecannon

11-08-2004, 01:41 PM

the best thing anyone can do now is take these logos into the public domain and put them in yuor signatures and make sure they are everywhere print posters and place them all over ...

make the public love the logos that if telkom takes it further they will look like arses ...

i assume we all have the permission to use the logos ...

donn

11-08-2004, 02:11 PM

Telkom is listed on the NYSE (symbol TKG I think). Any ideas how we can let the US investors know about this matter?

Also, I have it on good authority that all the senior Telkom management are out of the country until mid September. Wouldn't it be nice if they heard about this by watching CNBC, Bloombergs or CNN [:D]

Donn Edwards
http://privacy.4mg.com

playkiller no.2

11-08-2004, 02:24 PM

Telkom Telkom do you really think you can stop Mad with threats,he just make a another site.
if you close his down.

your time has come,you won`t stop the revolution.

Go to North Korea,where *******s like you belong.

Hellkom shall rise from the ashes if it falls,to be even bigger.

If you put one more of your crappy Telkom ads on tv,I go postal on your ass

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

I wander if I`ll earn enough money to buy Telkom LOL

regardtv

11-08-2004, 02:42 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 Correct me if I'm wrong as I'm not an attorney, but I do have quite a good memory. Since when was Email Post Legitimised as a Legal Method for Attorneys Etc to threaten people?
I stand corrected, but I thought legal threats could only be valid if they were Registered, Faxed and Confirmed, or hand delivered to a person, domicilum citandi et executandi.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

You may recall the ECT act was signed a while back. This was signed on paper and "digitally". The digital signature was not legal but the meaning of it was quite important.

From that moment on the act makes it possible for electronic communications (incl e-mail) to be a legal document. Most law firms shy away from this as it's never been tested in a court. Part of the problem is that the ECT act requires a tracable route of travel. There are also some loopholes in there.

That is my understanding and if some of the legal types (Buys et al) would like to jump in.....

loosecannon

11-08-2004, 02:45 PM

mad email them "free speach under atack in ZA" ... and get a interview ...

why stop at MNET

BTTB

11-08-2004, 02:57 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">You may recall the ECT act was signed a while back. This was signed on paper and "digitally". The digital signature was not legal but the meaning of it was quite important.

From that moment on the act makes it possible for electronic communications (incl e-mail) to be a legal document. Most law firms shy away from this as it's never been tested in a court. Part of the problem is that the ECT act requires a tracable route of travel. There are also some loopholes in there.

That is my understanding and if some of the legal types (Buys et al) would like to jump in.....<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Thanks for that info. That clears up a lot I think.
But I must agree, the subject is in the open now, where it belongs. It's a pity this site isnt driven by an organisation as it would have more power. It's Telkom against one person like Mad, who after all would never had designed the Hellkom website if Telkom weren't such rotten scoundrels.

Every dog has it's day.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

loosecannon

11-08-2004, 03:05 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><center>
Legal Notices and Information

The contents of this site is for personal use - if you choose to download anything you do so at your own risk - I am not to be held liable for any proceedings against you or others resulting from the use of anything on this website. I am protected by the Freedom of Expression Act under Paragraph 16 of the Constitution of South Africa from any legal action being taken as a result of the use of any information on this website as it is my personal opinion. All news links are hosted on their respective publishers' websites, and Hellkom is not affiliated in any way with any of the website links which may appear in any of the pages. The logo creations and jokes are parody, intended for entertainment purposes only and are not to be taken seriously. As a precaution to eliminate any confusion which could arise regarding this website, do note that Hellkom does not endorse any goods or services by Telkom and is not affiliated with them in any way whatsoever. Furthermore the use of the Telkom name is not used on this website in any way which could be deemed as copyright/trademark infringement or unlawful competition and we have no intention of doing so. As this site has been registered as Hellkom and does not contain a trade mark to which goodwill is attached it cannot be considered as 'passing off' as documented in the terms of the South African Common Law. Additionally this is a non-profit website and has been established for public interest as everything stated herein is factual and true. Opinions may differ.
</center><hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

http://www.hellkom.co.za/hell/legal.htm

martin

11-08-2004, 03:09 PM

I'm a member of the new forum for fans of the online bank 20Twenty. They have a Telkom section in the forums. I posted the news about hellkom being sued over there and received a rather interesting response:

http://www.forums2022.co.za/forums/viewtopic.php?t=60

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">
This is sad indeed and a perfect example of what South African law is all about, herewith my response as per my attourneys advice:

I have just gotten off the blower with my attourney and asked them what they thought of all this, they said:

"Telkom is taking a chance at intimidation here which is a law break on its own, they will be trying you in a court, no doubt, assuming that they will liquidate your assets in the process. They are more after, wasting your financial resouces and assets in a criminal lawsuite than trying you for the logo trademark violation. The alleged "logo violation" by Hellkom.co.za is more of a public parody than a trademark violation. Furthurmore, you are excersising your human right to freedom of speech as depicted in 'Act 108/1996' of the constitutional law of the Republic of South Africa and you are currently being tried for that right. Also this is a letter from an attourney appointed by Telkom and is the initial "threat" in persuing a criminal case against hellkom.co.za. No instructions or legal documents have been issued by the magistrate of any court to indicate legal action. It is also highly unlikely that a court will even look at the allegations made by Telkom to consider the allegations at hand."

I hope that this helps and good luck and all the best, although the odds are in your favour, you may need it, Telkom is a large gouverning power in this country and there is no question as to what they are capable of.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

playkiller no.2

11-08-2004, 03:19 PM

You heard the man Telkom Back off before you make yourself the laughing stock of South Africa........Wait too late for that LOL:

Anyway Mad if you are reading what Martin posted,you know what needs to be done.

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

I wander if I`ll earn enough money to buy Telkom LOL

Billy

11-08-2004, 03:41 PM

Want free legal opinions? Type SAA and sucks into Google!

Syzygy78

11-08-2004, 03:44 PM

:D Telkom is already the laughing stock of South Africa... Now they want to go global!

Karnaugh

11-08-2004, 04:26 PM

I think the fundamental flaw of their complaint is "telkomsucks.OCatch.com".

In terms of RFC 1591 (DNS Hierarchy) that domain reffers to telkomsucks off Ocatch off com off root.

COM. is a delocalised TLD. You may think it stands under US regulation, but that is for the most part untrue. It is not bound to any political reign.

And South African Trademark regulations CERTAINLY do not apply to it. The fact that it is a subdomain makes it even more laughable. Hell one could setup an infinit number of these domains and scatter them all over the globe.

I do belive that harassment is against the law here, Telkom might want to be carefull. They are in for the 8 figure plus numbers if they mess up and get the boot, 5 million is a joke.

- Colin Alston
colin at alston dot za dot org

"Getting traffic shaping right is easy and can be summed up in one word: Dont." -- George Barnett

lost

11-08-2004, 05:46 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">To keep yourself safe, drop the telkomsucks.ocatch domain, they never mentioned anything about hellkom, and can't hold you liable to it.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

They have mentioned the hellkom domain. Only thing is, I registered that domain so I got the email concerning hellkom.co.za. The letters are exactly the the same with the only differences being the domain concerned.

joema

11-08-2004, 06:11 PM

i say we DDoS the bastards, get some hacktivism going.

Brothers UNITE!!!!

only kidding, nice Telkom people that monitor this site

:)

Nickste

11-08-2004, 07:27 PM

A question:

If we formed a Closed Corperation and handed the Hellkom website over to the CC, would the fact that the CC owns the website not mean that Telkom could sue, but Mad wouldn't be personally liable, the company would.

So if he gets an ass whipping in court:
* the company goes bankrupt.
* Another company is formed.
* A bigger Hellkom site is built

And so on... Would this work? It might be an idea, as it would protect MAD.

Chow, Nick

Nick Smit
broadband@nicksmit dot za dot net

loosecannon

11-08-2004, 07:42 PM

well i have a spare CC that is defuncnt [used to own a house in the CC but sold it out the CC] ill buy hellkom.co.za for 1c and sell the cc for 2c ... [plus legal/stamp fees] that should piss em off ... i do have somthing else in mind for it but ill love to piss em off ...

neobyte

12-08-2004, 12:05 AM

Yes, the war has now started, if we need a CC, let me know I'll go buy one of those off the shelf ones. Liquidation here we come... Hellkom, I've got your back... I'm no millionaire but any other support I can give... I'm gonna buy loads of paper this weekend and milk my laser printer then go door to door on my daily walks... Maybe we could formalise a letter that I could copy and past.

playkiller no.2

12-08-2004, 07:28 AM

Time for a new Telkom Logo.

Telkom where we suck you dry and shut your mouth with our ****er lawyers.

Puts sign up *hands off Hellkom*

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

I wander if I`ll earn enough money to buy Telkom LOL

donn

12-08-2004, 08:40 AM

I think it's time to register a few more *sucks.co.za sites.

Perhaps adamsadamssucks.co.za and telkomsucks.co.za would be a good place to start. Nothing like fighting the lawyers on their own turf. [:D] And I'll design a "lawscum" logo.

Now here's the quote of the day, from the ThisDay front page article:

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">"Telkom is always eager to listen to its customers and welcomes constructive criticism", it said, but added that the company had a responsibility to protect its trademark and logo.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Man speak with forked tongue. They don't listen to anybody, least of all their customers. www.hellopeter.com is proof of this. Just do a search of "telkom" on their site.

I think their slogan should read "Dreading Tomorrow" since the SNO is not good news for them.

joema

12-08-2004, 09:20 AM

just a thought:

would it not be possible for MAD to get state supplied legal representation?
this way Telkom could drag it out for decades and MAD wouldnt be out of pocket?

also the state would be paying for both parties lwayers

:)

BTTB

12-08-2004, 09:29 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">would it not be possible for MAD to get state supplied legal representation<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I chatted with Mad last night. It seems he has something up his sleeve. But I will leave him to post the details, seeing that it's his behind on the line.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

donn

12-08-2004, 10:18 AM

ThisDay front page article:

>>>

Telkom loses its sense of humour

by Phillip de Wet

JOHANNESBURG - Telkom has threatened to sue a website that refers to it as Hellkom and Telscum for R5 million or more. But the webmaster -- and the union supporting him -- say they are not backing down.

Lawyers acting for Telkom this week sent a "cease and desist" letter to Gregg Stirton, who runs www.hellkom.co.za, demanding that he shut down his site and stop using logos that are "confusingly similar" to those of Telkom.

The logos, for which Hellkom is perhaps best known, substitutes Telkom's own catch phrase, "touching tomorrow", with slogans such as "robbing you with the government's permission".

If Stirton does not shut the site down by tomorrow, the Telkom lawyers warned, the company would claim damages of at least R5 million from him.

Stirton is unrepentant and said he has a protected right to use parody. He said he would obtain legal advice before making a decision. If the matter does end up going to court he does not expect to face the corporation alone.

"I've had support from everywhere. This is one of those issues where South Africans stand todether, It's been great."

One of his supporters is likely to be trade union Solidarity, which has associated itself with Hellkom even at is negotiates with Telkom about the company's plans to lay off more than a thousand workers.

"We are very disappointed at Telkom's action", said union spokesperson Dirk Hermann.

"Because it is functioning as a monopoly Telkom is under the impression that they can act like dictators. This is the same attitude we are seeing at the retrenchment negotiations."

Hermann accused Telkom of using bullying tactics to stifle debate around its prices, but the company said Hellkom had crossed the line that other critical websites had not by "defacing" its logo.

"Telkom is always eager to listen to its customers and welcomes constructive criticism", it said, but added that the company had a responsibility to protect its trademartk and logo.

<<<

ThisDay web site is www.thisdaysa.co.za

See also Marketingweb story
http://www.marketingweb.co.za/news/marketing/340614.htm

donn

12-08-2004, 10:29 AM

Isn't the Access to Information Act groovy? I just found this:

http://www.telkom.co.za/pls/portal/docs/page/paia/docs/Manual_ito_S14_PAIA_English.pdf

The Chief Information Officer of Telkom is:
Name: Mr Sizwe E. Nxasana
Postal Address: Private Bag X260
Pretoria
0001
Physical Address: Telkom Towers North
152 Proes Street
Pretoria
0002

Phone Number: +27 12 311 2473
Fax Number: +27 13 326 1588
E-mail: NxasanSE@Telkom.co.za

I guess it's time to write [;)]

Donn Edwards
http://privacy.4mg.com

http://privacy.4mg.com/SlowWireless.gif

TheRabbi

12-08-2004, 10:33 AM

Teach you to "loan" somebody's logo! Hope you are still having as much fun as the day you decided to launch the site?

BTTB

12-08-2004, 10:47 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I guess it's time to write <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just sent him a piece of my mind.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

podo

12-08-2004, 10:57 AM

Just a note, you might all like to know that this seems to be getting some coverage in the press. Our local Naspers branch (Die Volksblad) is reporting on the incident. The article is in Afrikaans, but I'll scan it later today and post it somewhere for your perusal.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development

dorris

12-08-2004, 12:03 PM

/me slaps theRabbi with my tsitsit
(for those that don't know, those are the 'tassles' jews wear)
<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">TheRabbi
Posted - 08/12/2004 : 10:33:37
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Teach you to "loan" somebody's logo! Hope you are still having as much fun as the day you decided to launch the site? <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
FUN maybe MaDs site was for a good laugh on his initial launch, have you visited lately and seen how much work, and content he has researched for this endevour, my hat goes off to him, and I back him fully with his campaign! (which although it comes across as comical, is dead serious)
do you ever feel positive about anything!! over the year i've been a member here, I've always seen your name associated with negativity to anything members of the site are doing. As a memeber of a group trying to make changes to our fscked up monopoly,
How do you plan on acomplishing this goal??

YES, this is a flame!! but if you have any other ideas about how to publicly get your view across to our society, please , enlighten us!

PS, is your name on mads petition yet www.hellkom.co.za/petition
FUN THAT

playkiller no.2

12-08-2004, 12:12 PM

Tomorrow I hope the site is still up,5 million I like to stick that up your ass Telkom but you have already enough crap up there already.

Telkom you have a enough money what would you want 5 Million,a new house for our idiot tel minister.

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

I wander if I`ll earn enough money to buy Telkom LOL

BTTB

12-08-2004, 12:19 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">MaDs site was for a good laugh on his initial launch, have you visited lately and seen how much work, and content he has researched for this endevour, my hat goes off to him<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Mad has done considerable work on Hellkom. I commend him for that.

Telkom can never silence someone like Mad. Freedom of Speech is entrenched in our Constitution. He or someone else will just start up another site or alter the content. The truth is out and Telkom is hurting. By their action this week, it is quite clear.
The Trade Mark infringements they talk about is just a smoke screen to cover up the real rot behind the scenes.

I just read that mad has got legal protection. I knew last night already, but wanted Mad to post the details. Read this on Hellkom.

The www.hellkom.co.za site has become popular as a forum for people to post strongly worded complaints against Telkom's pricing structure and service. It has a section that lists various jokes at South Africa's only fixed line operator's expense. The site also carries derivations of the Telkom logo by changing the colour to red and giving it devil horns and a tail.

Stirton is being voluntarily aided by Johannesburg advocate Michael Alachouzos, who is also a registered attorney in the US state of New York.

"I am quite puzzled by the Telkom letter as it threatens legal action in the US. Firstly, there is no 'High Court' there, so they must mean some kind of equivalent. Secondly, this kind of issue has been well litigated there and US courts are strict about upholding freedom of speech," Alachouzos told ITWeb.

Kudus to you, Advocate Michael Alachouzos.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

ajax

12-08-2004, 12:47 PM

I think everyone who needs a lawayer in Joburg from now on should make use of Michael Alachouzos or his company.

MAD, please post his and his company's contact details here.

playkiller no.2

12-08-2004, 01:02 PM

Come Judge throw Telkom out on their ass and charge them money for wasting the courts time.

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

onionpeel

12-08-2004, 01:16 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 <blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">I guess it's time to write <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Just sent him a piece of my mind.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">
Come come... do you really think that a guy who clears +-R7 million per year reads his own email? Of course not! He has a PA who scans everything - a human anti spam checker to block out the riff raff MyADSL members! [:o)]

podo

12-08-2004, 01:22 PM

If this should go to trial in a court, I would like to propose a show of support for Gregg, from all MyADSL members. I call on all members for whom it would be geographically and logistically possible to mount a peaceful, legal demonstration in front of or in the vicinity of the court. We would need to do this properly, in other words, a permit from the municipality and police would need to be requested, and we would need to make sure that we keep it clean and peaceful.

I would encourage everyone who can to show up, and bring anyone you know who is passionate about telecommunications, Telkom's abuse of its monopoly, and even people who are passionate about free speech. On that note, we might also want to enlist the help of free speech activists if we can find some to join us.

A large, publically visible demonstration, if we can manage one, will send a very clear message to both Telkom and government, and will get us extensive media coverage for the cause, which will help in gaining public sympathy.

We could also use the opportunity to hand a memorandum containing our grievances to government and Telkom management, if anyone from the department of communications, or Telkom management, can be bothered to show up.

Who's in?

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development

rpm

12-08-2004, 01:33 PM

Hi Podo

Great idea…the petition on the Hellkom site might be the appropriate document :-)

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

justplain

12-08-2004, 01:41 PM

Hey guys to spread the word about this petiton, add the following to your MSN messenger/Yahoo IM status/display names (i've got like 50 contacts, let them all see it) " http://www.hellkom.co.za/petition" I've added it my MSN and Yahoo messenger.
on yahoo it shows as a live link on your status...peeps can just click on it and it'll take them straight to the site. SPREAD THE WORD

cheers

"There is nothing more frightful than ignorance in action."

ipodmusicman

12-08-2004, 02:40 PM

I was just on Cape Talk's website and I saw that Gregg (I think MaD is his nick) was interviewed by Chris Gibbons at about 12:20pm. Anybody by any chance record it?

Strobemeister

12-08-2004, 02:52 PM

I didn't record it, but i did catch most of it commuting from CT today. It was another good interview & Mad spoke well, covering basically whats in this thread.
Hats off to Chris Gibbons & Cape Talk Radio for following up, and promising to continue following up.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

BTTB

12-08-2004, 02:56 PM

Arg Nooo. I missed it. If only someone had posted that it was going to be aired. I remember Mad mentioning something about radio last night, but I didn't figure that it would be on live today. Oh well maybe somebody recorded it. If someone did can they please post it for everyone to download.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

dorris

12-08-2004, 03:03 PM

Knowing MaD, it should be on his frontpage soon enuff.

playkiller no.2

12-08-2004, 03:05 PM

How many people do you think listened to that interview.

www.juiceboosted.com/index.php?RequestId=2&Id=cb9iv

ajax

12-08-2004, 03:06 PM

If it aired at 12h20 then it would have been on 702 as well. The weekday shows between 12 and 1pm are joint shows.

BTTB

12-08-2004, 03:20 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"> I think everyone who needs a lawayer in Joburg from now on should make use of Michael Alachouzos or his company.

MAD, please post his and his company's contact details here.<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

I agree.

And in retrospect Mad can give us the details of Adams & Adams aswell. So we also know which legal firms to avoid.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Nickste

12-08-2004, 09:10 PM

Is mad in Cape Town!?
If so, i'm definately in. Hopefully out of school hours.
*Nickste phones his LAN buddies.

Chow, Nick

Nick Smit
broadband@nicksmit dot za dot net

Strobemeister

12-08-2004, 11:29 PM

Hellkom is being discussed on Cape Talk Radio right now.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

antowan

12-08-2004, 11:45 PM

I am listening right now! Brilliant stuff. Just the odd idiot that support Telkom that suck!
[;)]

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###

Strobemeister

12-08-2004, 11:53 PM

Ja, lol. The discussion is moving on to Telscum's threatening calls to disabled pensioners. Love it.
Lol, some dude is playing a recording of a Telscum prerecorded message. Watch all these recordings change soon, lol.

Telkom - South Africa's Handbrake to progress.

BTTB

13-08-2004, 12:02 AM

That recording from Telkom is standard practice.
Personally it isn't very friendly. Why is it necessary for the recording to mention a legal threat. Doesn't the public have enough stress as it is. But why should telkom worry?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

hArTh

13-08-2004, 12:50 AM

Guys ... the Freedom of expression institute (FXI) is backing MaD 100%

Check www.hellkom.co.za

-Information anarchist-
www.sentechhatesfreespeech.org.za
I support:
www.telkom.***kensuig.co.za
www.poopband.co.za
www.hellkom.co.za

BTTB

13-08-2004, 01:06 AM

Also here is Adams & Adams Contact details. Firm of attorneys that are representing Telkom.
http://www.adamsadams.co.za/home.asp?pid=921

Email: Jan@adamsadams.co.za

Jan Stander of Adams & Adams http://www.adamsadams.co.za/home.asp?pid=970
Areas of Specialisation
Trademark litigation and oppositions
Copyright litigation
Unlawful competition and passing off
Advertising law

Send him a vent. Also anyone wanting to seek legal advice should look elsewhere IMO.

I have a picture of Mad's Advocate, but I will withhold it at this time. I'm not sure he wants the publicity and I would hate to upset Mad's Advocate, S.M.D. (MICHAEL) ALACHOUZOS, considering he is representing him for free. If Michael agrees, I will post his Bio here. It is quite impressive. This guy is specialising in among other things jurisprudence (legal philosophy) concerning evolutionary theory (as applied to law) and problems of constitutionalism in southern Africa. The man also loves music and has a stark resemblance to one of the members of Queen. One that is still alive that is. [:)]

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

MaD

13-08-2004, 01:18 AM

/me wipes the crap that's hit the fan from brow

Guys - thanks so much for all the support, it's all coming to a head now, so hold thumbs plz. The media are onto this which is great, and 702 and CapeTalk have given this a lot of exposure.. now we just need to see what happens with the logos. I stand by my belief that they are parody and not intended to ruin Telkom's reputation - it might even improve it if Telkom had kept quiet as most people would have thought well how nice of Telkom to have the courage to let someone parody their logo and not complain like a whining twit.. but this is how it ended up, and I will not let my right to freedom of expression be stifled - the same goes for all of us, this shouldn't be allowed to happen.

Till later..

Where others have progress, we have Telkom.
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za

VQuest

13-08-2004, 07:35 AM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MaD
 I stand by my belief that they are parody and not intended to ruin Telkom's reputation
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Telkom is top of the class for ruining their own reputation - they don't need any help.

I have a funny feeling that if you (we) can stand your (our) ground on this one, this whole story might just be bigger than we expect. Maybe make a little history in SA.

The (lame) lawyers (copy and paste) letter was only sent to scare you into submission. But little did they know that the small minority of disgruntled users namely myadsl, can no longer be brushed off, as we have turned out to be a major thorn in their side. It might not happen overnight, but if we stand united, make enough noise and ruffle enough feathers we are going to force Telkom to take notice and to make changes that will benefit all South African's.

I look forward to that day.

Good luck MAD, these are exciting times, stand your ground.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

joema

13-08-2004, 07:40 AM

thats it dood, stick to your guns.

dont let anyone infringe on our constitutional rights.

good on ya

Mean_Monster

13-08-2004, 07:45 AM

If and when this goes to court they should get a jury from another country (independent) to listen to the complaints of the people of South Africa against Telkom. Any human being would see how we are being ripped off.

donn

13-08-2004, 07:49 AM

More news from the M&G site:

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=120258
Burning question: Will Telkom sue?
While some disgruntled customers would probably like to see South African telecommunications giant Telkom burn in hell, the parastatal this week took exception to the popular website Hellkom and threatened the creator with a R5-million lawsuit for copyright infringement.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=120223
Telkom sues website owner for R5-million
The owner of the website www.hellkom.co.za on Thursday confirmed that he had received a letter from Telkom's attorneys threatening to sue him for R5-million, if the website isn't closed by Friday. Webmaster Gregg Stirton said the high cost and low quality of Telkom's telecommunication services was hampering South Africa's economic growth potential.

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=120263
Union says 'Telkom is scared of solutions'
Trade unions will persist with setting up a commission of inquiry into retrenchments at Telkom, although the company has refused to take part in the process. In a statement on Thursday, the Solidarity union spokesperson Dirk Herman said the unions were disappointed at Telkom's refusal to participate.

FWIW, I now refer to "Adams & Adams" as "Adders & Adders" because they're obviously only in it for the money. Ssssssssssso sssssssue me. How such a prestigiousssss company could sssssstoop sssssssso low I cannot imagine.

MaD: a word of warning and advice. Law suits take a long time and mostly involve waiting. If you can cope with the waiting you'll do just fine.

Lawyers are a strange breed. Check out http://www.adamsadams.co.za/home.asp?pid=531
and you'll see that Jan Stander is one of the third-tier lawyers in the Trademarks department. Pay close attention to the order in which the names appear. He may be a partner, but he's not even a senior partner. Lawyers are very fussy about the order in which their names appear in a big firm like this.

I think it's time to write to the senior partners and ask them why they put someone so ignorant of the internet on such a high-profile case. So far they have
a) Misspelt one of the domain names, which doesn't work anymore[:0]
b) Referred to a non-existent court in the USA[:D]
c) Sent their demands to the wrong people[B)]
d) Failed to read/take note of the legal notice on the Hellkom site[:o)]

I guess if you went to Stellenbosh in 1970 and have been doing law for 28 years you know ssssssssSQUAT about the internet, how it works, or who owns what. I wonder if he has a PC on his desk? Probably just uses the screen (turned off) as a place to store post-it notes. [V]

All of this is very sssssssloppy. Shame. I guess they're not such a hotshot firm in the 21st century after all.[xx(]

BTW, the ChairMAN works in the Trademarks office in Pretoria, along with 14 other WHITE men and 8 white women (judging by their photographs). I guess it's the kind of firm that belives that affirmative action means employing people who are bilingual. This is Pretoria after all.

MaD, are they going to fly you up from Cape Town for the hearings? Or do you think you could get it moved to the Cape courts? [:D]

Donn Edwards
http://privacy.4mg.com

ASnogarD

13-08-2004, 09:19 AM

Time to inject a reality check....

Reality is that Telkom will probably try get a court interdict to 'suspend' Hellkom till the issue is resolve and then tangle MaD in legalnese for a year or two, by that time the momentum Hellkom gathered will have died down and no longer be a popular forum for 'discussing' Telkom, Telkom will win even if it loses the case and it will only cost the legal fees of MaD's lawyer, and MaD can't even sue Telkom for suspension of the Hellkom site as it is non-profit so no funds were lost during the legal proceedings.

MaD - what does your lawyer say about that possibility ?

podo

13-08-2004, 09:27 AM

ASnogarD,

An annoying possibility we should not lose sight of. I'd be very interested in hearing from MaD's lawyer. However, I don't think MaD should allow such an interdict to deter him from the cause.

Simply re-launch the site the next day under, say hellkom.com, or what ever tickles your fancy, with a different set of logos, hosted in Russia. [:)] They can get as many interdicts as they want, he could just continue to re-launch, with everything he's not legally bound from doing, in perpetuity.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development

donn

13-08-2004, 11:33 AM

I just got the following email from Ravin Maharaj MaharaR7@telkom.co.za

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Dear Mr Edwards,

I've noted your correspondence and will revert with detail. Telkom SA
Limited respects your right to freedom of expression
Regards,

Ravin Maharaj
Specialist: Media Relations
Telkom SA Limited
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

The man sssssspeaksssss with forked tongue! [}:)] If Telkom honestly supports freedom of expression then how about a donation of, say, R5 million to the Freedom of Expression institute? Sheesh! [B)]

And he's a media relations specialist? Gosh, how patronising can you get in an email without realising it!

BTTB

13-08-2004, 01:58 PM

And likewise i got this one from the same man.

Mr ******,

Thanks for your viewpoint. Duly noted

Regards,
Ravin Maharaj

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

BTTB

13-08-2004, 02:40 PM

I had to post this comment I took off Hellkom's vent. It's so appropriate.

Mark Brouwer
Location:
Kommetjie
Comments:
Telkom says it has spent considerable time, money and effort in the promotion and establishment of their trade mark.

A monopoly like Telkom advertising is like a funeral parlour advertising death - one doesn't advertise a no-choice service. My view is that if a monopoly has to advertise itself then its service really has to suck.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Nickste

13-08-2004, 03:20 PM

Heheh. Look guys, I was thinking about making a few copies of da hellkom logo, and da web address and giving them to local shops, etc. in Cape Town. I'm also gonna make a few t-shirts for the newspaper dudes!

BTW, hellkom.co.za made the second page of yesterdays Argus!

Chow, Nick

Nick Smit
broadband@nicksmit dot za dot net

Flippit

13-08-2004, 06:45 PM

Ja Nick, all we need is to get two t-shirts... we can both wear them, it'll draw attention: we could even hand them out!

Anyone care to sponsor us a few t-shirts?

M

Flippit

AcidRaZor

13-08-2004, 06:57 PM

Sorry if someone mentioned this already, but how can "MONOPOLY-DOTCOM, GELDBOM, DJOUMA, EXPENSIVE on your website that are confusingly similar to our client's TELKOM trade mark."

Be similar to the Telkom trade mark? Are they admitting to something??? [:)]

Sentech, 99% downtime guarunteed!

hArTh

13-08-2004, 07:17 PM

Check the latest story on Hellkom:

"A response to Adams & Adams"

Check out these gems from MaD's attorney friend:

The email is also replete with instances of bad grammar and faulty (and therefore confusing) punctuation, erroneous citations (e.g. Act "no. 94 of 1993" when you mean "194 of 1993", and "Article 6(1)bis" when you mean "6bis (1)") and logical non-sequiturs -- all of which have the effect of making it extremely difficult to follow. In the circumstances, I would greatly appreciate it if you could email me a simple and unambiguous statement of what exactly it is that your client wants and on what sensible legal grounds (if any) it claims to be entitled to it.

-Information anarchist-
www.sentechhatesfreespeech.org.za
I support:
www.telkom.***kensuig.co.za
www.poopband.co.za
www.hellkom.co.za
Read about MaD of hellkom being sued for R5million by Telkom:
http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4316

Nickste

13-08-2004, 11:41 PM

Mr Price sells them for a few bucks. Then just head over to the PNA in dean street (clearmont) and give them a cd with the logo, and they'll print it. Alternatively do as mad suggested on his site and get some iron on's from Incredible disconnection and "print and iron".

Maybe we could pay some decent looking blondes to wear the T-shirts...

Nick Smit
broadband@nicksmit dot za dot net

Aqua_lung

14-08-2004, 01:25 AM

This is good... if telkom is starting to threaten with lawsuits then we must be doing something right

i do suspect though that the publicity carteblanche has given hellkom, and telkomsucks.co.za could be the major factor behind this, cause the way i see it... telkom has mentioned in the papers before they knew of these sites but dont see them as a problem(if they issued legal action it would give needed publicity for the sites anyway) but after carteblanche telkom seems to be getting a bit more aggressive.

BTTB

14-08-2004, 01:49 AM

Telkom can get as aggressive as it likes. It cannot be close to the resentment and pent up frustration people in SA must feel towards it. What must those poor people that have been retrenched and the people they want to still retrench, feel like. It’s sick.
I say every dog has its day and what comes round goes round. Telkom will never be lucky. They never earned what they have. It was given to them on a silver platter. And they behave like a spoilt rich brat. The shareholders don't appreciate what they have and fail to show the public of SA any respect. Their silence is deafening.

Their action against Gregg of Hellkom is deplorable. They are using our flipping money that we worked hard for to pay Telkom for it's highly inflated accounts to wage a legal war against Freedom of Speech. As I said before if you read this post, Ex Republica Forma Populare Tyrannis Oritur (http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1786) "Out of Democracy comes Tyranny". Telkom as it is now was a product of SA's democracy. You cannot blame anyone else besides the current regime for the situation SA is in regarding telecommunications.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

loosecannon

14-08-2004, 09:24 AM

there are wholesalers that supply T's [shody quality] at next to nothing ... Peters Clothing in JHB ... the best way to do a big run is go to a repo house and get a positive done of the logo then burn a screen and print em .... there are manyy small screen printers arround ...

beyers

14-08-2004, 11:13 AM

I think that Telkom has a reasonably good chance to be successful in court. They do not ask MaD to stop his anti-telkom actions, but only to stop using variants of their logo.

The court may view that request favourably, in my layman's opinion.

If WE dont fight, who will?

antowan

14-08-2004, 11:36 AM

That might be true Beyers, but the question is whether it is acceptable to use a company who is being targeted under the banner of free speech's logo in parody style imagery.

I feel it is important to have the right to do so. The logo was developed when it was still a full parastatal anyway, thus government might do us all a favour by putting a nice spickey harness on Telkom.

That said, we should keep our side clean. We do however recognise that some of the laws regarding Telkom are antiquated and have to change. We need to fight for that. Those laws are from the people for the people anyway! The laws are there to benefit us and when they don't, they need to change.

[}:)]

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###

beyers

14-08-2004, 12:00 PM

You may be right from a historical point of view. It is sad that the big Monopoly bullies us.

But I was only referring to MaD's chances in court.

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by antowan
 That might be true Beyers, but the question is whether it is acceptable to use a company who is being targeted under the banner of free speech's logo in parody style imagery.

I feel it is important to have the right to do so. The logo was developed when it was still a full parastatal anyway, thus government might do us all a favour by putting a nice spickey harness on Telkom.

That said, we should keep our side clean. We do however recognise that some of the laws regarding Telkom are antiquated and have to change. We need to fight for that. Those laws are from the people for the people anyway! The laws are there to benefit us and when they don't, they need to change.

[}:)]

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

If WE dont fight, who will?

hArTh

14-08-2004, 12:39 PM

http://www.mg.co.za/Content/l3.asp?ao=120369

-Information anarchist-
www.sentechhatesfreespeech.org.za
I support:
www.telkom.***kensuig.co.za
www.poopband.co.za
www.hellkom.co.za
Read about MaD of hellkom being sued for R5million by Telkom:
http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4316

Aqua_lung

14-08-2004, 12:54 PM

lets hope that if telk*k does go to court we wont be watching a rerun of a power, priveledged&justice episode like on the history channel.

and secondly whoever wrote the letter was an idiot mentioning old domain names and not even getting the old domain name correct with Ocatch instead of 0catch.

i dont think hellkom should worry cause they threatning a domain that does not exist

my 2cents

antowan

14-08-2004, 01:36 PM

I cannot remember who said that. Was it Plato, Aristotle? I believe it was Plato. Doesn't matter, it is true.

Cheers
Antowan

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by BTTB
 Telkom can get as aggressive as it likes. It cannot be close to the resentment and pent up frustration people in SA must feel towards it. What must those poor people that have been retrenched and the people they want to still retrench, feel like. It’s sick.
I say every dog has its day and what comes round goes round. Telkom will never be lucky. They never earned what they have. It was given to them on a silver platter. And they behave like a spoilt rich brat. The shareholders don't appreciate what they have and fail to show the public of SA any respect. Their silence is deafening.

Their action against Gregg of Hellkom is deplorable. They are using our flipping money that we worked hard for to pay Telkom for it's highly inflated accounts to wage a legal war against Freedom of Speech. As I said before if you read this post, Ex Republica Forma Populare Tyrannis Oritur (http://www.myadsl.co.za/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1786) "Out of Democracy comes Tyranny". Telkom as it is now was a product of SA's democracy. You cannot blame anyone else besides the current regime for the situation SA is in regarding telecommunications.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###

onionpeel

14-08-2004, 01:48 PM

I think MaD will win if the case goes to court. Have any of you read the MAD magazine? The hellkom site is exactly like that!

BTTB

14-08-2004, 02:33 PM

I just read this at the top of the Hellkom page.http://www.hellkom.co.za/

Update: Telkom have changed law firms - looks like they are taking the constitution by the horns

Or could it be that Adams&Adams don't want to take the case?

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

Gooku

14-08-2004, 05:55 PM

Adams&Adams is redarded as the best patent and trademark attorney in SA,to my knowledge ,they have never lost a patent suit.

If they dont want the case its certainly good news (but why did they send the letter ,and changed their mind now ?)

or

Telkom has manoeuvered outside Adams&Adams's expertise (trademark & patent law)

We are waiting to see ,What law firm will take a case ,that potentialy has to sue 2000 members ? (and probably get paid for only one case)

Adamsa&Adams is probably "WISE",not to put their reputation on the line for Telkom

We are not a sitting duck,

If Telkom continues to dis-respect the right to freedom of speech and freedom of expression

We will retaliate with consumer mass action.

In a modern and democratic society like South Africa.consumer activism is here to stay

-toady-

14-08-2004, 06:44 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by podo
 MaD,

SUE THEM FIRST.

Yes, you heard me. Talk to your legal council today and enquire about the possibilities of filing suit against Telkom first. In most countries with a common law or civil law system, the courts will usually be biased in favour of the person who files first. If it is possible financially and logistically, get your lawyer to file before Friday, that won't be the response Telkom wanted, but it's a response allright. I'm not too sure what you might sue them for, but your lawyer will be able to help you with that. Since you are not making money from Hellkom and since you are not a competitor, they can not claim unfair competition. Your right to free speech is protected under the constitution, and since you are not doing this for money, it is free speech.

Depending on the laws in force, you should at least be able to ask a court to give you an injunction preventing Telkom from further infringing on your right to free speech. I'm not absolutely sure if our legal system allows for "fair use" in copyrights, but since it is based mainly on common law, we should have such a provision. If we do, your lawyer can argue that since you are not making a profit from the use of the logos, and since your are not competing with Telkom, you have the right to use their logos for research or parody. Sue them for that right too.

Just make sure your lawyer stays realistic in terms of what you are suing for. Do not, under any circumstances, attempt to claim damages, in any amount, from Telkom. Since they have not directly done anything unfairly to cost you any amount of money, the courts will see your case as a money grab, and you will probably end up paying Telkom's legal fees. You could try to get them to pay your legal fees though, talk to your lawyer and find out what he or she suggests you do in this regard.

Willie Viljoen
Web Developer

Adaptive Web Development
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

-toady-

14-08-2004, 06:53 PM

i am rubbish at this postin stuff but why little stickers for cars antowan????? i would be honoured to slap 4ft x 4ft stickers all OVER my banger fer sure [:D]

WretchedToad (an if u find me posted in the wrong place hun, please move me ? heheh)[:D]

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by antowan
 The funny thing about this is that the name and the logo was built using public money when Telkom was still a government parastatal in the true sense of the word.

Now they come and say that they built the name and logo with great time and effort. What we should do is print out 6 x 6 foot posters that we can stick onto legal publicly viewable locations. Little stickers for cars and windows and email the whole country!

We can give Telkom a run for their money in more than one way!

Take up the fight guys in a legal way! We have to keep our side clean. TELKOM SUCKS!!!!

Cheers
Antowan

### What we need in South Africa is cheap 24/7, always on Internet for under R300 a month. ###
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Chris

15-08-2004, 02:46 PM

Well at least MAd has got support from trade unions and all and out of the first half of this year, Telkom have had more NEGATIVE MEDIA COVERAGE THAN EVER[:D][:)][8D][:p]

MaD

16-08-2004, 09:10 PM

Hey Guys,
Had a 2-hour meeting today - have appointed a law firm to handle this, namely Michalsons (www.michalson.com) - feeling a lot more confident about this now ;)

Where others have progress, we have Telkom.
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za

Goobie

16-08-2004, 09:24 PM

Mad,

link don't work. Could it be: http://www.salaw.co.za/

VQuest

16-08-2004, 09:54 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by MaD
 Hey Guys,
Had a 2-hour meeting today - have appointed a law firm to handle this, namely Michalsons (www.michalson.com) - feeling a lot more confident about this now ;)

Where others have progress, we have Telkom.
Hellkom website - www.hellkom.co.za
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Excellent news Mad, good luck mate, please keep us informed.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

BTTB

16-08-2004, 10:10 PM

Mad.

I told you their are many people rooting for you. We were just waiting to see if you wanted to take the first step.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

TheRabbi

17-08-2004, 08:34 AM

MAD - it's disgusting the way you ripped off Telkom's logo - hope you enjoy the lesson you are about to receive :)

SK33T

17-08-2004, 09:06 AM

Keep quite

TheRabbi

17-08-2004, 09:13 AM

SK33T - Thought as much - you are all shouting "free speech" and demand to be heard and spread your dribble, but you don't offer the same courtesy to anybody that does not share your views. What's wrong with this picture?

playkiller no.2

17-08-2004, 09:20 AM

I don`t talk to Trolls and neither should anyone else.

You may be a Telkom butt kisser,but I`m tired of their crap.

rpm

17-08-2004, 09:47 AM

Hi TheRabbi

We will always aim to keep this forum ‘open’ and allow all views to be expressed. This however does not mean that we will allow inappropriate comments and posts where the aim is simply to elicit an emotional response. I appreciate your activity on the forum and different viewpoint, but please try to express it in a more professional manner.

Regards,

RPM
rpm@myadsl.co.za

dorris

17-08-2004, 09:54 AM

CALL TO THE MODERATORS
Someone stop this off topic nonsense.
PlayKiller,sk33t, leave the poor rabbi alone, he's obviously one of SA's very very rare individuals that are happy wif TK.
Rabbi is entitled to his opinion.
but please rabbi, sk33t, playK, end this bickering before everyone on the forum has to wade through 3 pages of insults to get to the important stuff.
I'll reserve my rant for therabbi today, he's had enough! but be afraid .... be very afraid.
********************
edit
*************
RPM, I see you made it to the scene while I was typing the post.

TheRabbi

17-08-2004, 09:54 AM

rpm - very strange that you exclude playkiller no.2 (who has nothing constructive to say) from your comment??

What do you define as a "professional manner"? Please demonstrate by providing me with a replay that you believe would have been appropriate for playkiller no.2 childish and libelous remarks?

TheRabbi

17-08-2004, 10:12 AM

rpm - don't worry about the example I requested. I'll simply refrain from making further posts on this thread as it seems that you also can't handed "free speech" and are biased in hellkoms favor.

I will however respond to any further derogatory of libelous comments.

playkiller no.2

17-08-2004, 10:27 AM

If you must blast hellkom please explain why.
I`m sorry for my bad mouth there will no more of that today.

TheRabbi

17-08-2004, 10:52 AM

playkiller no.2 - thank you.

I support the principle behind Hellkom and I also hate Telkom for taking us to the cleaners. I however have a problem with Hellkoms logo. I don't believe that it is necessary to a. loan Telkoms logo and then b. violate it.

The big fuss has drawn lots of attention to the site and I believe that Hellkom is going to be nailed in court. It has achieved publicity but could end with the closure of Helkoms site. It may possibly have been an idea to loose the logo and continue with the site instead of the site owners risking all they own in the legal battle. Don't forget that Telkom has the law and a almost endless supply of money behind them.

A site that does not loan logos or names might be a better option at this point and may take the "cause" a lot further. Why waste money fighting them on trademarks when the money could be better spent fighting them on service and pricing?

BTTB

17-08-2004, 11:05 AM

Keep it clean guys.

We have to respect all views on MyADSL.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.

playkiller no.2

17-08-2004, 11:37 AM

It may be too late for Mad to remove the logos,cause Telkom may decide to make a example out of hellkom anyway if the logos were gone,just too boost their inflated egos.

By the way did anyone see that shirt shop in Canal Walk shopping selling prodgy shirts.

ASnogarD

17-08-2004, 01:15 PM

AFAIK Hellkom is protected against the claim of copyright infringement by the fact Parody is considered a "fair comment" by the law (don't ask which paragraph -section etc etc...I don't know).

A copyright infringement is when a commercial venture attempts to 'steal' another ventures image to boost profitablity, Hellkom is non-profit and therefore is not using Telkoms 'percieved' positive image to further commerial gains.

I don't think Telkom will win the case, but it may use 'brute' force to tangle MaD up in legal technicalities till MaD gives up.

donn

17-08-2004, 04:43 PM

MaD, I'm rooting for you! Go for it! So is www.2600.co.za. Someone just registered www.*****telkom.co.za. I'd love to see how the lawyers deal with that one [:D]

I got so p'd off with Tekom over the way they misled me on the "ExtraTime 400" contract than when I noticed their recent ADSL ad I filed a complaint with the ASA. I just got confirmation of receipt from the ASA today.

The details are on my web site, along with an expose of Adams and Adams. I'm intrigued to know how they are going to deal with THAT one as well.

I think we should complicate matters further by hosting the "offending" graphics somewhere else, and just linking them, rather like I did from my site. If we put each one on a different site it's *really* going to stuff up their paperwork.

As I said before, the biggest problem with law suits is the darn waiting. It's a bit like the Oscars ("1 hour of entertainment spread out over 4 hours") only the waiting is longer. If there is anything we can do to help, say the word.

From http://www.ictworld.co.za/EditorialEdit.asp?Archive=1&EditorialID=19509

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Although the letter sent to Stirton states that Hellkom’s trademark is confusingly similar to Telkom’s trademark, Ravin says Telkom has so far not been directly affected by the Web site or any of its logos. <hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

Ravin is the same spokeperson who accuses Hellkom of "hate speech", and he wrote to me that "telkom supports freedom of expression" so I don't know what kind of credibility he would have in court, but it may be an interesting quote to ask him about, especially when it comes to debating why they are threatening a R5 million figure.

<hr noshade size="1">
Donn Edwards

Why is ADSL like a Cheeseburger? Find out at http://privacy.4mg.com

joema

17-08-2004, 06:15 PM

dont know if anyone else has seen this, was written by Buys Inc. Attorneys:

http://www.legalbrief.co.za/view_1.php?artnum=3985

makes for interesting reading

VQuest

17-08-2004, 07:43 PM

<blockquote id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote">Originally posted by joema
 dont know if anyone else has seen this, was written by Buys Inc. Attorneys:

http://www.legalbrief.co.za/view_1.php?artnum=3985

makes for interesting reading
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote">

It does make for interesting reading, thanks.

----------------
United we stand!
----------------

BTTB

17-08-2004, 07:54 PM

I like this one.

"One of the defences to a defamation claim is "fair comment". If what is said is fair, true and in the public interest there could be no claim for defamation."

Does anyone perhaps disagree that Hellkom is not in the public's interest or perhaps is the facts and info page on http://www.hellkom.co.za/ un-factual? I think not.

"It should be kept in mind that, if a defamation claim succeeds, both the person making the statement and the owner of the website hosting the statement will be liable. It is therefore possible that one of the messages on the message board hosted on the site, could be defamatory"

I want to see Telkom taking all those people on the Hellkom vent to court. It would be a circus.

"it is clear that the use of the domain name www.neverflysaa.com is in line with the constitutional right to freedom of speech and will not be a case of trademark infringement or defamation. The WIPO Domain Name Arbitration process allows for the transfer of a domain name to the trademark owner, but a successful trademark infringement case by SAA here in South Africa would not easily result in the closure of the web site hosted in Austin, Texas. "

Hellkom was been hosted in Germany. I believe it is now hosted in the USA. Telkom's attribution to the high cost of hosting made it impossible to host the site in SA. What comes round goes round IMO.

<hr noshade size="1">You can take Telkom out of the Post Office but you can't take the Post Office out of Telkom.