i've had it.

I got to the point where i finally just gave up on Sucktech, and started seriously researching uncapped DSL, but then I came to a sparkling realization....

I have no reason to stay in this country, as the telkom stranglehold on the IT industry makes it impossible (or atleast _very__hard_) to build my business in this country.

Anyway, I am already telecommuting to Canada, and my inability to get work done a lot of the time due to being in this country, without the required resources.. has gotten me to the point where...

I am moving to Canada.

Don't get me wrong, I DO love this country, but by remaining here I am
just treading water. I will be back in 4-5 years when all this crap has sorted itself out. Sucktech has turned me into such a pessimist, that I can't help but think that things are going to get worse before they get better.

So.. thank you Sentech , and thank you Telkom .. for being the last straw in my decision to leave the country I grew up in.

Well I am sorry to see you go, but if you want my opinion, a decision like this made because you can't get good broadband....please, come on, get real.

Anyway, Countries from worst to best, in my opinion:
USA
Canada (Almost Americans)
Australia
UK
and so on, and so on
then the best South Africa

So enjoy and more speed to us. At least we have something to look forward to.

it's hardly the only reason I am leaving.

Good reasons to leave have been mounting for more than a year, but the lack of broadband, and the amount of stagnation related to it, was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I am awfully fond of Canada (and canadians) actually. I usually find them to be a friendly bunch (and that's beyond just the stereotypical canadian).

The major problem I have with america isn't actually americans. There are many nice, good americans. (there are many total tits too, dont get me wrong). It's their government I don't agree with.

I'm not leaving because I don't like south africa. I'm leaving to broaden my horizons and for several good business reasons.

Nothing wrong with going to live in another country to work and see the world from another side, I came here 21 years ago...

_________________________________________________________________________
custenna, variable 8 - 13 signal, ber 28% - 42%.<i> "I am the only one with this problem." </i>

Vertice, I wish you well, but don't for one moment think that Canada is some kind of paradise. I lived there for two years, and I decided to come back to SA. Why, because even though SA sucks in many aspects, Canada sucked even more in other aspects. For instance, as a landed immigrant, you will have no credit rating. So banks and other businesses treat you like garbage. And this myth that Canadians are so very friendly is just that, a myth. Many Canadians will see you as a foreiner that came there just take their jobs, and in a way that is true. Typically Canadians define themselves just as not being American, and for me that became very tiring very soon. And don't even talk about the weather, it sucks big time. If you wake up in the morning every day for weeks on end and it is wet and cold and dark after a while it might drive you totally nuts. It did for me. Oh yes, be prepared to pay between 2 and 5 times for everything you buy compared to here (except cars), and that is after you have paid more than 50% in tax. Their government is very efficient, they will control every aspect of you life, from how much you will pay in car insurance to where you are allowed to drink a beer when you are having a barbeque. You will find one official letter in your mailbox every day with some instruction or order that you will follow from that point hence.

One thing is great, their broadband service, there they have real competition and an oversupply of fibre. I had a 1.5 Mb/s cable and my average speed was between 1.3 Mb/s and 1.5 Mb/s, always, day or night, weekdays and weekends. One time it seemed a bit sluggish and I did a test - it was 850 kb/s. Next day I had an email from the ISP apologising for the problem. Can you even think that Sentech would do that. And it cost me someting like CA$35 a month, and they threw in 60 channels of cable TV.

So different strokes for different okes. I hope you find it better than I did.

I just want to say thanks to clive for giving a decent opinion and not flaming the americans straight off the bat. that gets really old really fast. I dont see why people are so against USA/Canada and love the UK so much. They have nice weather in the USA.

Leaving just for broadband? what a load of crap. I mean the grass is greener. Anyone leaving for broadband only must really like living in fear, donating unwillingly to causes such as AIDS and top of the range travel facilities for elite officials. then there is the stagnating multimedia industry (can anyone say HDTV). Cellphone rates is another one. Its odd how everyone is happy to bend over for Vodacom (due to good advertising) and pay rip off rates yet complain when they have to do the same for internet access (which brings in an international factor not included with cellphones)

Have fun overseas. I'd like to make the trip as soon as I can. The whole development (ag shame) aspect of SA doesnt appeal to me. Its no excuse for holding back on technology.

LOL!!! We're leaving the country because of Sentech now? OMG!

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by Vertice</i>
<br />Don't get me wrong, I DO love this country
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Of course. It's just that you love another country <i>more</i>. Hmm .. no, maybe it's a case of "I love this country, I just really don't want to live here". Huh? That doesn't make sense. Rings pretty hollow no matter how you put it, because moving is inherently an expression that you <i>prefer</i> some other place to the place you're currently living in. That is fine, as long as you embrace that. I don't believe there is such a thing as a "reluctant emmigrant" .. usually just feigned reluctance. Indeed, the 'new South Africa' is not for everyone, we are really building a new society and culture as we go and it's still evolving and 'in flux' .. this does involve some uncertainty and anxiety, which I think is exciting but I know others prefer the stability and predictability of an established society/culture.

Good luck as a Canadian. Of course it would be great if you decide to come back, but we both know that's probably unlikely.

It seems extreme that you're leaving just because of broadband, but I'm going to presume that you probably have other reasons too!?

it says something doesnt it. and Donovan you felt cheated - can you imagine how these guys feel if they are willing to duck..

I must say I never really could understand the concept that one country is better than another just because you happened to be born there. If you're born in country A then A is the best country in the world. If everything else stays the same except for the fact that you happened to be born in county B, now all of a sudden B is the best country in the world. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

I agree, it is quite strange. I guess people are inherently insecure and need to constantly reassure themselves that their place of origin is as good as everywhere else.

Personally I have no problem with people leaving SA if they feel their life will be better elsewhere. Life is short and if you have the opportunity to improve your (and/or your family's) life then by all means do it. I love SA to bits but I'm not going to judge others for leaving. We all have different life experiences and therefore some will find more reason to leave than others. If you think SA is the best, well guess what, you're already here so quit bitching []

The way I see it, this country has HUGE business opportunities already and more coming soon. The telecommunications industry is opening up finally - this is going to bring more opportunity and innovation.

Everyone of my friends is running thier own business of some sorts. My one buddy runs an exclusive car dealership (porches, ferraris etc.), another guy is in commercial property. I know a few freelance copywriters, my brother has been running his own graphic design agency for the last 10 years and I'm running my own web design business.
My brother-in-law recently joined his buddies in a company specialising in software design after working for only 6 months at a conventional job straight out of uni.

That is just who I know - what about all the other professionals out there ?
I know what forced this to come into being - BEE - it has effectively created a thriving small business market from people sick of having no job security.

I really don't think Canada can offer the kind of opportunity that's open to us here - we've hardly even begun to tap into the skill set of this country. There's a HUGE base of people whose lives are improving and who want services. Countries like Canada are saturated.

Then of course there's the "business click" - all of my clients come from contacts that I have built over the years, try getting that going in a new country where you have no ties !

Nah, South Africa is the place to be right now. I thought of working in London for a year to earn some pounds, but after visiting again in August, bugger that. I could never live in that country again.

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by bb_matt</i>
<br />I know what forced this to come into being - BEE - it has effectively created a thriving small business market from people sick of having no job security.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
I don't agree that BEE/AA is the major cause of this: The current lack of job security in 'traditional' salary jobs is a <b>global</b> phenomenon (and trend) in every other industrialised and/or Western nation in the world, in Asia, Europe, America etc., and would have happened here to a large degree even without BEE/AA. In previous generations it was generally the norm to work at only one or two companies your entire life (the most extreme case being Japan), but all this has turned around, for various reasons, and any bi-directional "loyalty" that may have existed between companies and their employees disappeared as managers have become increasingly profit/bonus-hungry (increasingly willing to eagerly let people go as "unnecessary costs" at any stage), and people have likewise responded by increasingly looking out for themselves only, trying to land the most lucrative job they can. This also created a cycle where companies have become decreasingly willing to spend R&D money training graduates because once they have "a year or two experience" they up and leave as soon as they can to another company. In the past companies could more comfortably spend time/money training graduates because that employee would likely stay, thus it was seen as an <i>investment</i>. (Perhaps related to this trend is that these days the biggest proportion of the unemployment burden in industrialized nations is on the youngest people in the workforce.)

All these trends have been happening world-wide during the past 30 or 40 years, and were well underway even before BEE+AA existed. Unemployment rates in all industrialised nations (except the US) have been steadily rising since the 60s, and the increased unemployment also leads to less job security. But yes, BEE+AA also help "push" people into becoming entrepreneurs rather. The positive business climate created by the current government, restructuring, as well as DTI efforts to encourage SMME growth, have also all contributed to an increase in new company registrations recently.

A friend of mine who is a financial manager lives in the UK and wants to start his own business precisely because there is "no job security these days". It's not just a SAn thing. And many people I know who are starting businesses (including myself) left very stable jobs to do so, not AA-threatened jobs. Often there are other reasons.

I have to agree that this country is really full of entrepreneurial opportunities for anyone with a bit of imagination and willing to work hard at an idea, especially with the economy growing increasingly rapidly. I can't stand graduates who lament that there are "no opportunities here", and then proceed to sit around living at their parents place for a year or so feeling sorry for themselves and spending most of their time ... socialising. Why not spend that time building something? Build a product and try to sell it? Even if it fails you've gained valuable experience which will help you find a job and be better at it. They say there are "no opportunities", but every time someone <i>else</i> has a business idea and makes it work (and it happens every day), that *was* an opportunity that they missed. Opportunity never "comes knocking", but if you are always looking for it you'll find it.

Part of the problem is South Africans do not really have an "entrepreneurial spirit". In the US, 1 in 12 people try to start a business at some point in their lives (most fail, but most keep trying, always on the look-out for new ideas). This is changing though .. more and more SAns are taking risks and starting businesses. I guess people weigh the perceived risk (i.e. lack of job security) vs gain of a salary job (which yes, includes BEE+AA) against the perceived risk vs potential gain of starting their own business, and the former is becoming a less attractive alternative to the latter.

Sorry for the long post :/

I sometimes contemplate kicking my dog cause of sentech, but I never do. Sounds like you were just bragging about going to Canada (if it is something to bragg about). South Africa is awesome! Please remember to participate on the forum when you're over there, and tell us about your experiences with First World Bandwidth.

Please mommy make the bad man stop. (Bad Man = Sentech)

Turtle, I agree with you that BEE/AA isn't the cause of all things discussed above. BUT I have to tell you, from experience, if you're the wrong colour, it makes thins a lot harder for you if you don't have any established contacts/references in the industry you're trying to get into (catch 22....). Just look at how many advertised jobs make no secret of the AA/EE requirement. Even for jobs that are not advertised as EE/AA jobs, I have been told in no uncertain terms that I'm the wrong colour.

When I started looking for work in the IT industry (after doing small time support/installations/networks on my own for the last 10 years), I faxed/mailed/e-mailed more than 400 applications/CVs in response to advertised positions, as well as a number of proposals to companies where I saw potential for something that might benifit both the company and myself. Of all the applications I did, I got *ONE* phone call. Thank goodness I got the job too, mostly because I had exactly the skills that they were looking for (very specific linux/bsd skills in addition to the genereal Windows stuff) and I was the only one who did. That was more luck than anything else.

I can understand how someone who works and makes a living in the IT indrustry (which is very dependant on the telecommunications industry) can want to leave the country because of it. Just this morning, after almost a month of waiting, I found out that telkom can't install ADSL for one of my clients after all, because the box is on fiber. This is after I had them check it and check it again when I did the application. It took them THREE months to install my phone at home. Took them only a minute to cut it off when I didn't pay my bill in time (actually I did, it was their accounts department's mistake), and it took them only a minute to cut it of when I notified them that I'm moving house. Compare that with some providers in Europe where you apply for ADSL and an hour later at most you're cruising on the information highway.

I for one am very quickly frustrated when something that can be done in a few minute takes days or weeks. Another shining example is electronic money transfer. I have not seen any satisfactory explanation why transfering money between two banks should take up to four working days. Why do we have computers at all? I would be quicker to drive it from the one bank to the other, even if one's in Cape Town and one in Messina. Of course, the banks are earning interest on the money during that peopiod. They're stealing the money I was going to make with it.

Add up the little things like this and you'll quickly see how someone could want to give another country a try.

--
koffiejunkie

Well this has certainly turned into an interesting topic. My 2 cents:

1. Quite a few members of my family have emigrated. This is their choice and will not treat them as 'traitors'. The positive side of this is that they left at least 6 job openings for others to fill. On a side note: one of my uncles was a regional manager for one of the major banks. He now works as a bank clerk in Australia.
2. I'm sticking with SA. I see oppurtunities on a daily basis. This country is certainly going places. Yes we've had some growing pains and we'll probably experience some more but I'm willing to tolerate those. Crime, corruption, monopolies... I'm confident we can overcome all of those.

Do you think other countries are immune to these problems ?

Just ask a few americans about thier broadband connection woes - there's been all sorts of trouble over there too !

I'm currently struggling with my business. Prior to starting it, I was a partner in another company that went BooM due to circumstances beyond my control - I was clearing a very decent salary.

I had a look around the job market place for web design / multimedia positions and was incredibly put off by it. Salaries have dropped because there's so many people looking for work, plus companes expect you to work long hours for no overtime ! - Screw That.

Although I'm battling to make ends meet, that's more a result of having lived on a high salary and trying to match that, while lowering my overall costs. But, the kicker is, I'm making more working for myself that I would as a staff employee and the opportunities are getting better. As my business grows, I'm getting more contacts.

I have really really battled since April - almost to the point where I was considering selling my car to pay off debts - things are coming right now because there's LOTS of work out there if your prepared to look for it.

I can't imagine trying this in the UK (where I was born and lived for some years) - I wouldn't even know where to begin, but over here I just know how things work, have loads of contacts and price very competitively.

It's suprisingly easy to run a small succesfull business if your able and willing to take the plunge - it's risky, you loose sleep over it but the way I see it, there's no job security going staff anymore, so why not start your own business ?

South Africa - definately a land of opportunity.

I never suggested that people in other countries don't have the problems with telecoms and ISPs that we have, but in most first world countries it's certainly not the norm.

Moving abroad is always about compromises. You trade something better for something worse. Up-to-scratch standards in whatever you're after for bad weather. Or what ever the case may be. There's no point in defending either (especially not in defending the pathetic state of telecoms in S.A.) For some people it's acceptible, for some people it's not.

I grew up in the "ou Transvaal" with maybe ten days a year without sunshine. I got all the sunshine I could ask for for the first 20 years of my life. I also lived in the Western Cape for three years, where I discovered that I can acutally live with the bad weather. I even liked it. The "worst" days were the ones when I'm in good spirits and super productive. I'd have a ball living in the UK or Scandinavia (sp?), as far as the wheather goes. Some people from S.A. would go mad.

Different strokes....

B.T.W. I still live in S.A. and don't plan on moving any time soon.

--
koffiejunkie

<blockquote id="quote"><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica" id="quote">quote:<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"><i>Originally posted by koffiejunkie</i>
<br />There's no point in defending either (especially not in defending the pathetic state of telecoms in S.A.) For some people it's acceptible, for some people it's not.
<hr height="1" noshade id="quote"></blockquote id="quote"></font id="quote">
Making a choice to stay in SA does not at all necessarily mean one finds the state of e.g. telecomms acceptable (in fact I doubt there is any sane person in SA who would defend the state of SA telecomms). On the contrary, many of us are here precisely <i>because</i> so many things are not up to scratch and we want to <i>change</i> that and build something and basically improve the place. That's hard work. It's a lot harder to "build a country" than to live in one that's pretty by and large already "sorted". But in my opinion, more satisfying.

Different strokes, I guess. Some people prefer a 'comfortable' life in a society where most things are fairly sorted out (usually people suffering from the "someone should ..." syndrome, i.e. the people who always start sentences with "someone should .." such as "someone should fix SA telecoms"). Others like to build something new and worthwhile (usually the sort of person who starts sentences with "*we* should ..."). That's not to say you can't build something new and worthwhile in a developed country, it's just that much harder to do something that makes a difference to as many people's lives than what you can do here.

I agree with your overall feelings Turtle - there's lots to DO over here.

I was in the UK for a week (family funeral) recently and could not get over how OVER Developed everything is there. There's hardly a millimeter of space to move freely in compared to here. It's a tiny little country, yet everyone who lives there thinks it's so big - everything is closely packed together, from parking on street kurbs, to farm walls and hedges, to restaurant tables.

It just feels so stagnant - like there's no room to move really.
I was born there, came here in '76 (of all years to choose) when I was 8, went back at 11, back here at 13 and worked there for a year in my early 20's - but I'm a South African by everything but birth. I felt like a tourist being there this year.

As for Canada, I've chatted at length to a number of people who have lived and worked there. The most happy people have very solid traditional careers - Doctors, Lawyers etc.
The unhappy people were mostly involved in sales/media/industry.

New Zealand - now there's another "escape" - been tempted, but after hearing a lot about it, nah - standard of living there is not what I get here, crime or no crime.

Australia - also been tempted. I know two very good friends who are happy there - it took them a good 18 months to settle (it always does), but they are cool with it. Neither of them had been a victim of violent crime over here, but you'd swear by the way they talk when they visit that they were - you know the drill ! []

USA ? - never would move there - fsck that ! []