Carte Blanche: Censorship vs. Hate Speech at UCT

Should religious content feature in a RAG Magazine?

  • Yes

    Votes: 24 46.2%

  • No

    Votes: 26 50.0%

  • Unsure

    Votes: 2 3.8%
  • Total voters
    52
N

nauseous_monkey

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I assume some of you guys know about the fuss fundamentalist Christian groups have been putting up about a student magezine over at UCT 'Sax Appeal' in which there was an article or two that offended Christians. The result of this was that the magezine was taken out of circulation and tons of other stuff unfolded. Now Carte Blanche is doing a story on the issue.

Read up on the issue here:

Cape Times Article

AAS UCT Discussion

Here are the pages from the Sax Appeal

http://aas.uct.ac.za/files/sax_appeal_1.pdf
http://aas.uct.ac.za/files/sax_appeal_2.pdf
http://aas.uct.ac.za/files/sax_appeal_3.pdf
 
There was quite a heated thread about it here recently. But I think it got deleted because of the contention.
 
nauseous_monkey said:
ah sorry. Just thought it news worthy as it is now going to be on Carte Blanche.
Click to expand...

s ok... the other thread is gone... so we can play in this one now.

IMO it's a tough call... I think the gist of the argument was "Is religion untouchable when people must make a choice in order to follow it?"

Some people said that racism should be banned because a person cannot change who they are. Others said blasphemy should not be banned because those people chose to follow that lifestyle (were not born into it without a choice).

It's an issue which puts me in a dilemma. Of course part of me would like to see blasphemy limited... but at the same time... I would like to make some criticisms of Christianity... and especially of Islam.

I think the resolution lies in religious people learning not to get upset... because at the end of the day... surely our "divine being" can take care of Himself and mete out his own punishment... should he deem fit.
 
I agree with you. This is always going to be a sensitive topic. Just look at the PD section and you know exactly what a heated debate Religion causes. I think that people have a choice what they read.

Sax Appeal is not a magezine that is intended for a conservative chriatian crowd. It is intended to make people uncomfortable. Just reading a few second on the history of Sax Appeal will make you aware of the sort of things they get up to. So it is very much like someone complaining about the Soccer articles in a Sports Magezine.
 
UCT should not have apologised. They should have made fun of them.
 
Making a mockery of the religion of another person is a sure sign of an immature fool. Such behaviour should not only be censored, but should also punished - severely and harshly, so that other like-minded fools will think twice before spewing their stupidity.

Making fun of, or criticizing the religion of another person, does not make the world a better place.

I wonder if these idiots would have made the same fun of Islam?

Cretins.
 
plazma said:
Making a mockery of the religion of another person is a sure sign of an immature fool. Such behaviour should not only be censored, but should also punished - severely and harshly, so that other like-minded fools will think twice before spewing their stupidity.

Making fun of, or criticizing the religion of another person, does not make the world a better place.

I wonder if these idiots would have made the same fun of Islam?

Cretins.
Click to expand...

A bit harsh don't you think? What is so special about religion that it deserves this sort of passionate bigotry in its defense?
 
I found it neither offensive, nor, more worryingly for a supposedly satirical magazine, did I find it at all funny.
 
I am still a bit puzzled by this whole thing..

Making fun of religion is part and parcel of being alive in todays society..

Christians make fun of other religions, and other religions make fun of christians and other religions...

If you can't take it.. don't read it... simple. Sax Appeal is known for "pushing" the limits... if you are a conservative who can't deal with other peoples opinions or sense of humour.. then don't read Sax Appeal.
 
Bullshyte. Show me where anyone else makes fun of Christianity. Name a website, newspaper, movie, or play, which supports your assertion that pissing on peoples' religion is acceptable conduct?

"Making fun of religion is part and parcel of being alive in todays society.."
- what society??? Arab Society? Muslim society? African society? Japanese society???

What drugs are you on, man? Where in the world is it acceptable to make fun with the most cherished and serious of other peoples' beliefs???

Added: And as for your idiotic argument that you should not read Sax Appeal if it offends you, then I guess the same should apply to child porn, where for example, if I know other people use children for making pornography, but if it offends me, then I should not look, and that makes everything ok??
 
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plazma said:
Bullshyte. Show me where anyone else makes fun of Christianity. Name a website, newspaper, movie, or play, which supports your assertion that pissing on peoples' religion is acceptable conduct?

"Making fun of religion is part and parcel of being alive in todays society.."
- what society??? Arab Society? Muslim society? African society? Japanese society???

What drugs are you on, man? Where in the world is it acceptable to make fun with the most cherished and serious of other peoples' beliefs???

Added: And as for your idiotic argument that you should not read Sax Appeal if it offends you, then I guess the same should apply to child porn, where for example, if I know other people use children for making pornography, but if it offends me, then I should not look, and that makes everything ok??
Click to expand...

Calm down. Anything that is not open to rational critisism is intrinsically corrupt.
 
nauseous_monkey said:
A bit harsh don't you think? What is so special about religion that it deserves this sort of passionate bigotry in its defense?
Click to expand...

Well if you read MEDICAL JOURNALS, you will not see us doctors speak of people who continue to smoke, eat saturated fats, not exercise, forget to
take their meds - as 'tools', 'idiots', 'morons', 'imbeciles'. Medical professionals
could use such language but we feel it would be
1. Unprofessional.
2. Insulting.
3. Cruel.
4. Degrading to the patients.
5. Degrading to us and our colleagues and our profession.
6. Unnecessary.
In the same light, beliefs or actions of other people you disagree with can be criticised but that should be done in a civil and POLITE manner. Also people should first of all know what they're criticising and not see the truth behind things ie take things in context and with insight. For example don't label all Christian people with the same beliefs as ultra-fundamental Baptists. And don't even assume that ultra-fundamental Baptists are stupid either.

Anyway there is no perfect person and everyone is stupid on this earth, I've seen Nobel laureates and CEOs make incredible blunders and walk away from them unscathed. Everyone should be treated with respect and vulgar criticism should be kept away from charitable magazines affiliated with state institutions and noble causes. Also the editor should have not used the magazine as his own personal mouthpiece. If I ran a paper and someone wrote something in it which was insulting but not informative, I'd fire him,
it would not be a free speech issue but a breach of contract issue or insubordination. If the person who wrote these vulgar insults in the Sax Appeal wanted to exercise his free speech he should have run his own paper.
 
nauseous_monkey said:
Calm down. Anything that is not open to rational critisism is intrinsically corrupt.
Click to expand...

Racial criticism is not the issue here. It's context (is a charitable magazine a place to use vulgar language to criticise people's beliefs) and politeness.
You don't see courts call a mass murder an 'animal' or a 'pig' or other such obscenities. Professional and intelligent people should behave intelligently,
if they don't it shows they are either immature or have poor upbringing. In Europe, people often want to associate with people of similar or better education level to them because often enough the less educated people are
boorish and don't know how to behave and would say such vulgar things.

In SA where race was an issue and level of education not on the European level (fewer people with university and post-grad degrees) that is less of an issue but it comes out here precisely. A person who uses expletives is either immature or uncultured. Lack of culture is a big reason why some people behave as savages.
 
"rational critisism" of a religion is not conducted in a comic-strip university rag magazine.

Do you have ANY idea what misery this planet has suffered as a result of religious intolerance? Have you not learnt anything from knowing there have been Muslim Conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, the Reconquista, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the Thirty Years War, the Inquisition, ... and the list goes on and on and on. Have you not read ANY history? Have you even been to school?? Do you have ANY awareness of the major events in the world, right now?

So returning to my question: Where in the world is it acceptable to make fun of someone's religion? Stop screwing around and answer me.

You cannot, because it is actually not acceptable anywhere.

Why don't you put this to the test right now, by making some mocking statements about Islam, right here in this free-speech Internet forum, in a country whose constitution guarantees you freedom of speech?

Wake up, please. If you had been a qualified theologian you might have had some credibility, but what are you, actually? What qualifies you to make pronouncements on the religion of others?
 
ToxicBunny said:
I am still a bit puzzled by this whole thing..



Making fun of religion is part and parcel of being alive in todays society..
Click to expand...

You can satirize but do it well and without vulgarity. Secondly if SAX APPEAL is a charitable magazine running that was maybe not the best idea. Running heavy pro-religious stuff would also be incorrect, as would running pornography, links to pirate software downloads, political speech pro-one particular party and so on.

Christians make fun of other religions, and other religions make fun of christians and other religions...
Click to expand...

I'm not sure what gave you that idea. In the Catholic Church, Ecumenism is a big movement and making fun of other religions is officially a 'no-no'.
The previous Pope regularly met with people from other religions - Buddhists, Muslims, Hindus, other Christian denominations. I've never heard a church service where the priest laughed or criticised other faiths. On occasion they point out the differences - eg in one religion the main person is a prophet but for Christian's our main person is Christ who is God etc. No-one has ever said "Those crazy Buddhists... etc". That just does not happen.

A group of five monks from Ganden monastery in Tibet will spend a few days at the 1000 year-old Benedictine Abbey in Tyniec near Krakow at the end of February. The Abbot of Tyniec, Father Bernard Sawicki, hopes it will not be a one-off meeting. ‘We want to learn a lot from them in such areas as meditation and Tibetan medicine. It is going to be an exchange of experience and an ecumenical and inter-cultural event’, he told the Gazeta Wyborcza daily.
Click to expand...

http://www.polskieradio.pl/zagranica/news/artykul102133_Tibetan_monks_to_visit_Poland.html



If you can't take it.. don't read it... simple. Sax Appeal is known for "pushing" the limits... if you are a conservative who can't deal with other peoples opinions or sense of humour.. then don't read Sax Appeal.
Click to expand...

Sax Appeal is a charity magazine and is associated with UCT which is a state funded teaching institution ie a PUBLIC institution. It aims to raise money and through vulgarity has now dragged the name of UCT through the mud and maybe put off many donors from donating to them.
 
PeterCH said:
Racial criticism is not the issue here. It's context (is a charitable magazine a place to use vulgar language to criticise people's beliefs) and politeness.
You don't see courts call a mass murder an 'animal' or a 'pig' or other such obscenities. Professional and intelligent people should behave intelligently,
if they don't it shows they are either immature or have poor upbringing. In Europe, people often want to associate with people of similar or better education level to them because often enough the less educated people are
boorish and don't know how to behave and would say such vulgar things.

In SA where race was an issue and level of education not on the European level (fewer people with university and post-grad degrees) that is less of an issue but it comes out here precisely. A person who uses expletives is either immature or uncultured. Lack of culture is a big reason why some people behave as savages.
Click to expand...

Hey Pete nah I was responding to Plazma's harsh comments not the Sax Appeal issue in the post you are replying to. I agree the Sax Appeal thing is not in good taste, but honestly no big deal either. It is Plazma's reaction that interests me here more than anything else.
 
"rational critisism" of a religion is not conducted in a comic-strip university rag magazine.

Do you have ANY idea what misery this planet has suffered as a result of religious intolerance? Have you not learnt anything from knowing there have been Muslim Conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, the Reconquista, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the Thirty Years War, the Inquisition, ... and the list goes on and on and on. Have you not read ANY history? Have you even been to school?? Do you have ANY awareness of the major events in the world, right now?

So returning to my question: Where in the world is it acceptable to make fun of someone's religion? Stop screwing around and answer me.

You cannot, because it is actually not acceptable anywhere.

Why don't you put this to the test right now, by making some mocking statements about Islam, right here in this free-speech Internet forum, in a country whose constitution guarantees you freedom of speech?

Wake up, please. If you had been a qualified theologian you might have had some credibility, but what are you, actually? What qualifies you to make pronouncements on the religion of others?
 
plazma said:
"rational critisism" of a religion is not conducted in a comic-strip university rag magazine.

Do you have ANY idea what misery this planet has suffered as a result of religious intolerance? Have you not learnt anything from knowing there have been Muslim Conquests, the French Wars of Religion, the Crusades, the Reconquista, the Troubles in Northern Ireland, the Thirty Years War, the Inquisition, ... and the list goes on and on and on. Have you not read ANY history? Have you even been to school?? Do you have ANY awareness of the major events in the world, right now?

So returning to my question: Where in the world is it acceptable to make fun of someone's religion? Stop screwing around and answer me.

You cannot, because it is actually not acceptable anywhere.

Why don't you put this to the test right now, by making some mocking statements about Islam, right here in this free-speech Internet forum, in a country whose constitution guarantees you freedom of speech?

Wake up, please. If you had been a qualified theologian you might have had some credibility, but what are you, actually? What qualifies you to make pronouncements on the religion of others?
Click to expand...

lol, how does religious violence in the past lead you to thinking that this means that no one is allowed to have rational critism of religion? If anything I think it does just the opposite.

Qualified Theologian? lol, what do they know :p
 
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