Haha: China military 'copy' machine irks Russia

PeterCH

Honorary Master
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
18,371
Reaction score
3
Location
Cape Town
China military 'copy' machine irks Russia
Mon, 09 Mar 2009 19:32:07 GMT
SU-33 aircraft
Moscow shrinks from selling Beijing the warplanes it needs for its future aircraft carriers after China manufactures 'fake' Russian fighters.

Alarmed at probable leakage of military information, Russia has canceled its plans to provide China with seaborne SU-33 fighter planes, Russia Today reported quoting a report by the Canada-based Kanwa Defense Review.

Russian refusal followed China's insistence on 'trying' the aircraft before purchasing them and after findings that Beijing had been illegally copying equipment for Su-27SK fighters.

China had ordered two SU-33's for the trial period but its request was rejected by Russia even after the quantity was increased to 14, on the basis that at least 24 units of the aircraft should be sold to recoup the production.

In February, Russian defense official Mikhail Pogosyan said the Chinese defense manufacturers had done so in breach of intellectual property agreements, DefenseNews reported.

The Chinese had apparently earned the license to build the Su-27SK but then developed their own version outfitting it with their own avionics and system against the provisions, the source added.

HN/MMN

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=88051&sectionid=351020602

This is hilarious! Go China!!! :)

And you know the Russians had AllOfMp3.com and other quasi-legal music service selling Western music for cash, they don't seem to like it when
someone else copies their stuff. Hypocrisy???
 
I don't see what a bunch of brigands taking advantage of Russia's liberal copyright laws has to do with state-sponsored theft of advanced military technology. That's just taking bread out of pensioners' mouths.

I see you're still find unusual sources to support your anti-Russian views.
 
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=88051&sectionid=351020602

This is hilarious! Go China!!! :)

And you know the Russians had AllOfMp3.com and other quasi-legal music service selling Western music for cash, they don't seem to like it when
someone else copies their stuff. Hypocrisy???

Bwhahahaha peter that is so true man, have you seen how many mp3 russian sites have popped up since allofmp3 shut down?

Now they understand what the RIAA is on about :p

Sackboy the Russian government allows those sites to operate and they are making money off the artists who see nothing. It is theft what they do because they are selling the album not uploading it to a p2p network for us to download or a news server or torrent, they are making money off stolen content. In most Countries that is called theft :). Now they are crying about the Chinese stealing their stuff.

China you beauty.
 
Last edited:
I don't see what a bunch of brigands taking advantage of Russia's liberal copyright laws has to do with state-sponsored theft of advanced military technology. That's just taking bread out of pensioners' mouths.

The Russian authorities refused to take action against AllOfMp3.com until the
West pressured them with WTO membership exclusion. Even then they later found the owner of AllOfMp3 not guilty and the service is up and running.
The RIAA and it's international arm, as much as I dislike them, do not agree that services like Mp3sparks and AllofMp3 have license rights to resell their music. The issue is that the Russian authorities didn't really have a big issue with this because that wasn't their music, no-one was downloading re-recordings of Tatu or Balalaika music but instead they were paying $$$
to Russian companies for Western Intellectual Property. Now that Russia's govt is loosing out to China in the same way, they pulled the plug on China.
Seems like hypocrisy to me.


I see you're still find unusual sources to support your anti-Russian views.

My Anti-Russian views? Then your views are anti-Western. Do you want to play a childish game then?

I actually don't have anti-Russian views. I do have views against Russian interference in other sovereign nations. That goes for other countries too.
So kindly stop your childish ad hominem attacks.
 
The Russian authorities refused to take action against AllOfMp3.com until the
West pressured them with WTO membership exclusion. Even then they later found the owner of AllOfMp3 not guilty and the service is up and running.
The RIAA and it's international arm, as much as I dislike them, do not agree that services like Mp3sparks and AllofMp3 have license rights to resell their music. The issue is that the Russian authorities didn't really have a big issue with this because that wasn't their music, no-one was downloading re-recordings of Tatu or Balalaika music but instead they were paying $$$
to Russian companies for Western Intellectual Property. Now that Russia's govt is loosing out to China in the same way, they pulled the plug on China.
Seems like hypocrisy to me.




My Anti-Russian views? Then your views are anti-Western. Do you want to play a childish game then?

I actually don't have anti-Russian views. I do have views against Russian interference in other sovereign nations. That goes for other countries too.
So kindly stop your childish ad hominem attacks.
You misunderstand. You try to force a correlation between a private Russian company and a state funded one, which is hardly fair. In another thread you have a go at the lack of freedom in Russia, despite the fact that it was far too free at one time, which is why some order was imposed. Now that the results of the freedom are apparent (piracy), you fall on the side of the brigands because you see it as a double standard.

So what do you support, piracy or copyright law. Let's see which side you take?

Russia has gone to great lengths and expense to produce amazing technology, little of it copied or mimicked. Their fighter aircraft are some of the most aeronautically refined in the world. They fly well without multiple computers. It is not a joke when that kind of thing is copied, since it forms a good part of the economy. You wouldn't be saying the same should someone produce a copy of the Rooivalk.

We know the Chinese feverishly try and copy anything placed in front of them. One was tossed out of the ISS Space programme for the same reason. You can't see it in the same light as an MP3 of Tartu or Britney.
 
You misunderstand. You try to force a correlation between a private Russian company and a state funded one, which is hardly fair.

The Russian GOVERNMENT has been turning a blind eye to game, software, music and movie piracy since the USSR collapsed. The AllOfMP3 site and the many sites which replaced it are further examples of this theft of other countries' products. (We can argue the issue of copyright here and so on,
but that works both ways as the copyright to build those Sukhoi fighters can also be argued about in exactly the same way.) Point is that the Russian Govt did not prosecute AllOfMp3 till some considerable pressure was born down on it by the US - in the form of WTO negotiations. The money which the Russian MP3 sites collect does not go back to America but stays in Russia and since the products are mostly Western (except for Tatu and some home grown music) the West had the most to loose out of this and conveniently the Russian Govt got tax money and an inflow of foreign reserves into their economy. In this case the Chinese copied the SU design and build one of their own with possibly improved specifications. This time Russia was upset because now they're loosing money since China may sell these aircraft to other countries or build them instead of buying from Russia.
In both cases the Russian Govt is involved, be it the judicial arm or the legislative arm or the local police.


In another thread you have a go at the lack of freedom in Russia, despite the fact that it was far too free at one time, which is why some order was imposed. Now that the results of the freedom are apparent (piracy), you fall on the side of the brigands because you see it as a double standard.

Lack of freedom? From Stratfor? Sure - for example all demonstrations have to be pre-approved and so on. Go read up about the dangers journos face over there on other websites.

So what do you support, piracy or copyright law. Let's see which side you take?

Irrelevant. I'm drawing a comparison between how the Russian authorities turned a blind eye to 'piracy' when it favoured them or at least did not cut into their earnings, but when it did not favour them they are now all about 'intellectual property rights'.

Russia has gone to great lengths and expense to produce amazing technology, little of it copied or mimicked. Their fighter aircraft are some of the most aeronautically refined in the world. They fly well without multiple computers. It is not a joke when that kind of thing is copied, since it forms a good part of the economy. You wouldn't be saying the same should someone produce a copy of the Rooivalk.

I don't see the relevance of what you're saying here. IP is IP.

We know the Chinese feverishly try and copy anything placed in front of them. One was tossed out of the ISS Space programme for the same reason. You can't see it in the same light as an MP3 of Tartu or Britney.

It's all about MONEY. Money makes the world go round. IP is IP.

China has overtaken Russia already. Chinese are very intelligent and hardworking people and they are capable of producing quality while Europeans in the Communist system were not able to do that, by Europeans I include Russians obviously. In 10 years time PRC products will rival Japanese and German build quality, you'll see and ultimately they'll be developing all of their tech the way the Japanese SDF uses their own fighter and cruiser designs.

Again I have nothing against Russians, one of my good friends is married to a Russian woman and we are friends but they should interfere less in other peoples' lives and concentrate on peaceful co-operation.
 
The Russian GOVERNMENT has been turning a blind eye to game, software, music and movie piracy since the USSR collapsed. The AllOfMP3 site and the many sites which replaced it are further examples of this theft of other countries' products. (We can argue the issue of copyright here and so on,
but that works both ways as the copyright to build those Sukhoi fighters can also be argued about in exactly the same way.) Point is that the Russian Govt did not prosecute AllOfMp3 till some considerable pressure was born down on it by the US - in the form of WTO negotiations. The money which the Russian MP3 sites collect does not go back to America but stays in Russia and since the products are mostly Western (except for Tatu and some home grown music) the West had the most to loose out of this and conveniently the Russian Govt got tax money and an inflow of foreign reserves into their economy. In this case the Chinese copied the SU design and build one of their own with possibly improved specifications. This time Russia was upset because now they're loosing money since China may sell these aircraft to other countries or build them instead of buying from Russia.
In both cases the Russian Govt is involved, be it the judicial arm or the legislative arm or the local police.




Lack of freedom? From Stratfor? Sure - for example all demonstrations have to be pre-approved and so on. Go read up about the dangers journos face over there on other websites.



Irrelevant. I'm drawing a comparison between how the Russian authorities turned a blind eye to 'piracy' when it favoured them or at least did not cut into their earnings, but when it did not favour them they are now all about 'intellectual property rights'.



I don't see the relevance of what you're saying here. IP is IP.



It's all about MONEY. Money makes the world go round. IP is IP.

China has overtaken Russia already. Chinese are very intelligent and hardworking people and they are capable of producing quality while Europeans in the Communist system were not able to do that, by Europeans I include Russians obviously. In 10 years time PRC products will rival Japanese and German build quality, you'll see and ultimately they'll be developing all of their tech the way the Japanese SDF uses their own fighter and cruiser designs.

Again I have nothing against Russians, one of my good friends is married to a Russian woman and we are friends but they should interfere less in other peoples' lives and concentrate on peaceful co-operation.
There's quite a bit of repetition so I'll just concentrate on the new.

Please tell me what new technology has come out of China?

They've copied ALL of Russian space technology. Their spacecraft are almost identical.

Fighter aircraft are all Russian design, apart from some crude prototypes.

Their small arms are nearly all knock-offs.

You just have to go into a cheapo computer shop to see the Chinese brands. Where is the innovation?

In fact, AFAIK, Western goods manufactured in China are all subject to increased failure rates since that started. Their QC is not great. Even their cars are dodgy (Geely) with some of the lowest safety standards in the industry.

And don't come with these "in 10 years time" predictions. You and I both know that in 10 years we will both have forgotten what you said.
 
There's quite a bit of repetition so I'll just concentrate on the new.

Please tell me what new technology has come out of China?

They've copied ALL of Russian space technology. Their spacecraft are almost identical.

Fighter aircraft are all Russian design, apart from some crude prototypes.

Their small arms are nearly all knock-offs.

You just have to go into a cheapo computer shop to see the Chinese brands. Where is the innovation?

In fact, AFAIK, Western goods manufactured in China are all subject to increased failure rates since that started. Their QC is not great. Even their cars are dodgy (Geely) with some of the lowest safety standards in the industry.

And don't come with these "in 10 years time" predictions. You and I both know that in 10 years we will both have forgotten what you said.

I think this thread is going off topic but I'll oblige.

Chinese products? Well virtually all electronics get assembled in China and many components are built there. Take the iPod for instance, that's made entirely in China, although designed by Apple in Cuppertino, CA.

Computers? Lenovo? Many people swear by those.

And if you want to look at the future of Chinese development look at 2 things.

1. Their past. Not long ago - 20-30 years, China was a poor country, suffering in industry and mostly producting agricultural goods.
Look at CHina now, sure - it's largely Western capital, but the pay the Chinese govt collects and the technology transfer which occurs all favour China.

2. Look at their neighbours. Look at Taiwan. Free market economy although of the Asian variety ie production driven economics with exports. Look at Macau and Hong Kong. Look at Singapore.

Look further at Japan. Back in the 50-70's Japanese products were seen as junk, now they rival with German and US produced goods, and they do their own development. As said the JMSDF is the second most powerful navy in the world with much native technology. What natural resources has Japan? What percentage arable land?
What incredible natural disasters? Anyway contrast that with Russia,
and it's a pity you didn't read that write up from Friedman's Stratfor because it mentioned many reasons why Russia has always had it tough - rivers which flow in wrong directions, vast expanses of land which make transport expensive etc. Anyway to predict where China will be one only has to look at South Korea and Japan right now.

One could argue that the boom which has propelled Chinese economic growth will die down with the economy but that will impact Russia even more anyhow. The economy will ultimately pickup as will the internal Chinese domestic market.

Of course China will not better the US because of many reasons but it has bettered Russia already. Chinese goods, although you say of lower QC,
are better in quality than Russian goods. Secondly Russia doesn't even produce that much, they've been pissing their wealth away - the wealth they got from expensive oil and natural gas prices - instead of building industries they spent it on luxuries and now on re-armament.

Russia has some great technologies. The Russian space program was mostly home built - the Russians captured very few Nazi V1/V2 engineers and had to rely on their own scientists. They have the biggest freight aircraft and the biggest submarine. They have great aircraft and the biggest ICBM supply - bigger than the US. They have some deadly surface-to-ship missiles and upcoming stealth technology but to think that the Chinese who at one stage had the most advanced civilisation on earth cannot develop is ridiculous.
They started later than the Soviets but they surpassed them and they
have also bettered Russia. In fact China is a big customer for Russia although
many Chinese eye the vast empty expanses of Russian territory and itch for it too.
 
I like Chinese
I like Chinese
They only come up to your knees
But they're cute and they're cudly and they're ready to please.

Monty Python
 
I think this thread is going off topic but I'll oblige.

Chinese products? Well virtually all electronics get assembled in China and many components are built there. Take the iPod for instance, that's made entirely in China, although designed by Apple in Cuppertino, CA.

Computers? Lenovo? Many people swear by those.

And if you want to look at the future of Chinese development look at 2 things.

1. Their past. Not long ago - 20-30 years, China was a poor country, suffering in industry and mostly producting agricultural goods.
Look at CHina now, sure - it's largely Western capital, but the pay the Chinese govt collects and the technology transfer which occurs all favour China.

2. Look at their neighbours. Look at Taiwan. Free market economy although of the Asian variety ie production driven economics with exports. Look at Macau and Hong Kong. Look at Singapore.

Look further at Japan. Back in the 50-70's Japanese products were seen as junk, now they rival with German and US produced goods, and they do their own development. As said the JMSDF is the second most powerful navy in the world with much native technology. What natural resources has Japan? What percentage arable land?
What incredible natural disasters? Anyway contrast that with Russia,
and it's a pity you didn't read that write up from Friedman's Stratfor because it mentioned many reasons why Russia has always had it tough - rivers which flow in wrong directions, vast expanses of land which make transport expensive etc. Anyway to predict where China will be one only has to look at South Korea and Japan right now.

One could argue that the boom which has propelled Chinese economic growth will die down with the economy but that will impact Russia even more anyhow. The economy will ultimately pickup as will the internal Chinese domestic market.

Of course China will not better the US because of many reasons but it has bettered Russia already. Chinese goods, although you say of lower QC,
are better in quality than Russian goods. Secondly Russia doesn't even produce that much, they've been pissing their wealth away - the wealth they got from expensive oil and natural gas prices - instead of building industries they spent it on luxuries and now on re-armament.

Russia has some great technologies. The Russian space program was mostly home built - the Russians captured very few Nazi V1/V2 engineers and had to rely on their own scientists. They have the biggest freight aircraft and the biggest submarine. They have great aircraft and the biggest ICBM supply - bigger than the US. They have some deadly surface-to-ship missiles and upcoming stealth technology but to think that the Chinese who at one stage had the most advanced civilisation on earth cannot develop is ridiculous.
They started later than the Soviets but they surpassed them and they
have also bettered Russia. In fact China is a big customer for Russia although
many Chinese eye the vast empty expanses of Russian territory and itch for it too.
The Chinese did not invent the iPOD, neither did they design the Lenovo PC. The latter was bought from IBM and is in some ways a bit stuck in the past. Fortunately, they chose it to be stuck at the height of the product's design.

China is a one big assembly plant for the West. In fact, as the US economy slows and less products leave the shelves, so factories in China close.

Russia has a completely different infrastructure. They rely more on minerals, industry and agriculture, much of it untapped, but Putin is trying to steer them towards manufacturing. They need to diversify using the massive reserves they have. Their education is very good and they could capitalize on that. They don't need to copy. Many of their innovations are evident in Western economy.
 
The Chinese did not invent the iPOD, neither did they design the Lenovo PC. The latter was bought from IBM and is in some ways a bit stuck in the past. Fortunately, they chose it to be stuck at the height of the product's design.

The Chinese are achieving a level of quality the Soviet Union was not capable of.

China is a one big assembly plant for the West. In fact, as the US economy slows and less products leave the shelves, so factories in China close.

The Chinese are not only making products for Sony, Apple and others but also
for their own companies, largely through transfer of knowledge programs, if you want to invest in China you have to transfer production knowledge.
Secondly the Chinese have their own universities and their graduates fill
up positions in the USA.
Finally China had a more advanced civilisation than Europe and that proves they are capable of discovery, invention and innovation.

I already gave the examples of South Korea, Japan and Taiwan to show where China will be technologically in the near future. These nations all started their industrial development rather late as compared to Europe.


Russia has a completely different infrastructure. They rely more on minerals, industry and agriculture, much of it untapped, but Putin is trying to steer them towards manufacturing. They need to diversify using the massive reserves they have. Their education is very good and they could capitalize on that. They don't need to copy. Many of their innovations are evident in Western economy.

The Soviet Union loved to copy Western ideas.
 
Top
Sign up to the MyBroadband newsletter
X