So it begins: JZ blast top SA judges, courts

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2CentsWorth

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http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?set_id=1&click_id=13&art_id=vn20090409050224266C609125

If anyone wondered why some of us, me in particular, are worried about this man coming to power, this is exactly why.

African National Congress President Jacob Zuma - likely to become the country's next president - has blasted the conduct of the judiciary and questioned the supremacy of the Constitutional Court as the highest court in the land, saying it "is not God".

He also accused Deputy Chief Justice Dikgang Moseneke of declaring war on the ANC, and criticised other judges who, coincidentally, ruled against him in his corruption court appearances.

...

He said the Judicial Service Commission should review the status of the Constitutional Court.

"That's the impression it creates (that judges can't make mistakes); that's why I am saying they are almost close to God. I think it's important to engage them, to raise these issues; they are issues that need to be looked at," he said.
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:(
 
We'll see... I'm beginning to have doubts that he'll survive his presidency.
 
So criticism of the ruling party will soon be illegal by the looks of things? Sounds more and more like Mugabe talk every day.
 
timgaul said:
So criticism of the ruling party will soon be illegal by the looks of things? Sounds more and more like Mugabe talk every day.
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It's not in the interest of democracy for Judges to critisize political parties. They are supposed to be impartial?
The brithday party where the deputy chief justice allegedly critisized the ANC was attended by Bulelani Ngcuka...
 
JungleBoy said:
It's not in the interest of democracy for Judges to critisize political parties. They are supposed to be impartial?
The brithday party where the deputy chief justice allegedly critisized the ANC was attended by Bulelani Ngcuka...
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(Zuma)... criticised other judges who, coincidentally, ruled against him in his corruption court appearances.
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What about that statement?
 
JungleBoy said:
It's not in the interest of democracy for Judges to critisize political parties. They are supposed to be impartial?
The brithday party where the deputy chief justice allegedly critisized the ANC was attended by Bulelani Ngcuka...
Click to expand...

Correction. It is not in the interest of democracy for senior politicians and presidents in waiting to blast our top Judges. Especially when those politicians get to CHOOSE the top judge in the country. Judges impartiality should be applied in their cases, not their public musings. Criticism of the ruling party (whichever ruling party it may be) IS in the full interest of democracy. Criticism is the most direct call to accountability there is.
 
JungleBoy said:
It's not in the interest of democracy for Judges to critisize political parties. They are supposed to be impartial?
The brithday party where the deputy chief justice allegedly critisized the ANC was attended by Bulelani Ngcuka...
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Seems you are looking forward to our soon to be dictatorship?
 
JungleBoy said:
It's not in the interest of democracy for Judges to critisize political parties. They are supposed to be impartial?
The brithday party where the deputy chief justice allegedly critisized the ANC was attended by Bulelani Ngcuka...
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Judge Nicholson criticised the president, and the ANC loves him :/

However, in a summary to a case, if a ruling party is at fault (in Nicholson's case Mbeki wasn't on trial, so this instance is hardly credible) then there is no reason to refrain from criticising their actions in the judge's deliberation.

However, outside the courts perhaps they should refrain from criticism of any particular politician and leave the law to take its own course.

I was referring to the fact that soon an ordinary citizen may no longer be allowed to criticise the ANC; though thankfully, this would require a change to the constitution and with enough opposition we it may never be in danger again.
 
BlueCollar said:
What about that statement?
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What the news article doesn't tell us is which judges were critisized other than deputy chief justice, and for what reason did JZ critisize them. A qoute would have been nice...
 
VJB 449 said:
zoooma is not yet president and he already has a mugabe complex. What a stupid retard.
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Hopefully in this upcoming election there will be enough opposition to keep him in his place. So go out and vote on the 22nd everybody, we need all the votes we can get to oppose the ANC and stop South Africa from becoming just another African state!

A vote against the ANC is a vote for democracy and a brighter South African future!
 
timgaul said:
Judge Nicholson criticised the president, and the ANC loves him :/

However, in a summary to a case, if a ruling party is at fault (in Nicholson's case Mbeki wasn't on trial, so this instance is hardly credible) then there is no reason to refrain from criticising their actions in the judge's deliberation.

However, outside the courts perhaps they should refrain from criticism of any particular politician and leave the law to take its own course.

I was referring to the fact that soon an ordinary citizen may no longer be allowed to criticise the ANC; though thankfully, this would require a change to the constitution and with enough opposition we it may never be in danger again.
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That was a court judgement, which was open to appeal. It was subsequently appealed and overtuned. This is very different from a senior judge critisizing a political party when he is not presiding over a trial.
 
2CentsWorth said:
Correction. It is not in the interest of democracy for senior politicians and presidents in waiting to blast our top Judges. Especially when those politicians get to CHOOSE the top judge in the country. Judges impartiality should be applied in their cases, not their public musings. Criticism of the ruling party (whichever ruling party it may be) IS in the full interest of democracy. Criticism is the most direct call to accountability there is.
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The judges can critisize all they want on matters brought before them in a court of law.
 
JungleBoy said:
That was a court judgement, which was open to appeal. It was subsequently appealed and overtuned. This is very different from a senior judge critisizing a political party when he is not presiding over a trial.
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Either way... this is not about criticism. This involves Jacob Zuma showing that he does not believe the constitutional court should enjoy the status of being the highest authority in the country. That is extremely worrying. That should be debated here - instead of squabbling over criticism which in any democracy should be entertained from whence it comes.

Diminish the power of the constitutional court, and you can kiss South Africa's very widely acclaimed and acknowledged constitutional system goodbye.
 
JungleBoy said:
The judges can critisize all they want on matters brought before them in a court of law.
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Bull. The Judges have a constitutional right to free speech, and may criticise whomever they wish whenever they wish. Everyone is entitled to that right.
 
JungleBoy said:
That was a court judgement, which was open to appeal. It was subsequently appealed and overtuned. This is very different from a senior judge critisizing a political party when he is not presiding over a trial.
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Thabo Mbeki was not on trial! You fail to miss that Nicholson had no right in criticising him. He was a lone judge who may have made a massive faux pas and ended a man's political career.
 
timgaul said:
I was referring to the fact that soon an ordinary citizen may no longer be allowed to criticise the ANC; though thankfully, this would require a change to the constitution and with enough opposition we it may never be in danger again.
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Yes but all it takes is a 2 thirds majority to change the constitution as far as I'm aware, so you may be kissing that right away pretty soon. I think it's too late to try and stop a 2 thirds majority in this election (I could be proved wrong though, which I hope I am) so between now and the next election (if there is one :() it is the responsibility of ALL South Africans to fight (not in the literal sense) for their constitutional rights and unite to ensure this never happens again.

*All includes ex-pats etc

It's time now for someone to start voter education the long term goal being the longevity of democracy in SA
 
2CentsWorth said:
Bull. The Judges have a constitutional right to free speech, and may criticise whomever they wish whenever they wish. Everyone is entitled to that right.
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So Judge Hlophe was exercising his constitutional right to free speech when he said there was no case agaist Zuma to the two constitutional court judges.
If that is not improper conduct by judges, why then is the JSC having this inquiry?
The judges should abide by their code of conduct and desist from making political statements if we are to trust and abide by their judgements.
 
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