Consumer activism in SA

[kb]

We in South Africa are notoriously complacent and accepting of bad service and the excuses as to why things are as they are. We love to complain but complain amongst ousrselves where it has little effect with regards to improving the situation we find ousrselves in.

To my mind MyADSL is the first co-ordinated consumer activism effort that appears to be having a real effect on improving the lot of the SA consumer. Just the fact that the suppliers of goods and services in the arena that MyADSL targets even notice what is said here is a major step forward for consumer activism in SA. To this I have to take my hat off to rpm and all the other valuable members that contribute to this forum - THANK YOU!

I am aware that there have been other activism efforts in SA (http://www.hellopeter.com) comes to mind. However few seem to have had the effect that MyADSL has had in achieving real long term changes in attitude. I am not knocking hellopeter here but to my mind it is more of a complaints forum where suppliers do respond but the remedy is to resolve individual problems.

I believe the success of MyADSL lies in the fact that it is a clearly focused forum whos agenda is to change the longterm attitudes of suppliers in a very specific arena. MyADSL to my mind is a great example of how we should go about effecting change.

Can anyone name any other consumer activism efforts that appear to be making a real difference (change in attitude not fix this immediate problem)?

Once again thanks to rpm and all other contributors.

[bb_matt]

Can anyone name any other consumer activism efforts that appear to be making a real difference (change in attitude not fix this immediate problem)?



Not that I can think off. There used to be TV programs dedicated to that type of thing, as we know. I think Carte Blanche still does bits and bobs, don't have mnet any more and don't watch much TV, so I wouldn't know.

What worries me is lack of education about issues - or rather, lack of information about issues.

I think that's where rpm and others have made this site a success - the sharing of information by IT professionals. Of course, the very fact that the subject matter is IT and telecommunications helps, as most the people participating in discussions know how to use the internet.

But what about other issues ?
Take our food for instance - what are the current regulations in this country regarding GM foods, animal feed, pesticides etc. ?
Would the types of people involved in the food industry ever start a forum like this to discuss issues with food regulations and actually give out facts about poor practice, illegal activities etc. ?

What about food prices ?
That's something that really gets me !
So, the rand went through the roof some years back and food prices shot up - now the rand is stronger, why haven't food prices come down again ?
Who regulates those prices ?
Someone is making a LOT of money at the expense of the SA consumer.

What about the motor industry ?
Was there ever any concerted effort by the public to bring the various dealerships and manufacturers to book over inflated car prices in South Africa ? - obviously not, because the prices are still too high.

The fact is, without experts in other areas to speak out and educate, most of us wouldn't have a clue where to go to find out more. But would those experts in other fields ever speak out on a public forum such as this one and would people bother to participate ?

There's precious little consumer activism in this country, along with very few consumer rights groups and virtually no education on issues that effect our lives every day.

It's a bit of a catch 22 - without the correct bodies and organisations in place who actually have some power, how can the public be made aware of thier rights as consumers ?
And when for many, it's just a struggle to keep thier heads above water, when would they find the time to participate in consumer activism ?

I often feel like a victim in terms of prices in this country - bank charges, car prices, food prices - we just seem to pay so much for things where compared with other countries and I can't think why it goes on, except for apathy ?

I think a lot of the apathy has to do with a prevailing South African attitude, to quote Pink Floyd, "I'm all right Jack, keep your hands of my stack"

[Liansky]

Now this is what i'm talking about.

[stoke]

bb_Matt - Agree'd.
kb - are you thinking of starting something more useful than hellopeter ?

The catch is - so many people are being ripped off in so many ways (take a look at our complacent police and rediculous judicial system.), that once you start digging you uncover a mess so large that it boggles the mind and you loose focus.

There is hardly ever 1 person responsible for something, which is the governmint's trick. Governmint sets up groups of people to be responsible, so that they can blame each other.

Sometimes, when a single person can be blamed, that person is dismissed/fired/given a lovely parachute - and somebody else takes over with the problem unsolved.

We've gotta petition governmint to provide clear - user friendly channels for problem solving.

For example - The ekurhuleni (http://www.ekurhuleni.com) municipality did setup a central point where municipal problems are raised (An 0861 number methinks.), and this is probably proving to be effective, but I cannot find that number and they've stopped marketing it, so it's useless to me. i.e. The marketing of problem solving points must continue.

The governmint is gathering and spending more money than ever before, but all that spending seems to have very little effect on the problem issues. Claims of favoritism and corruption are rife, though when it comes to providing the evidence of corruption, something seems to go horribly wrong and the cost of prosecuting the accused soon outweighs the value that a succesful prosecution could bring.

I walked through a governmint building in JHB last year, just walking around, exploring and looking in every open door that I passed. Nobody was working, and I mean nobody, and that really pissed me off. I'm paying their salaries and they are getting fat, and demoralised, and I have absolutely no idea who to complain to.

Look at Teklom's success since they were privatised. Sure we are not fond of them, but, look at those figures. And it's not like Teklom was not ripping us off before privatisation.

"In the old days", somebody like Isabel Jones would grab hold of a problem, and bring it to the media's attention. The problem would get widespread coverage and the people/company causing the problem would "please explain" in the same media. One of the side effects of the Isabel Jones phenomenon is that companies would cause problems and have solutions at the ready, so that when Isabel Jones worked up a media frenzy, the company with the "problem" would benefit from tons of free advertising, and then still manage to look good to the public with their "sudden" quick apologies and problem solving abilities.

The media is supposed to be the governmint's watchdog. But they are far more interested in sensationalism and international affairs.

e.g. Does anybody know that a couple of days before the almighty tsunami hit, half of the our Eastern Coast was washed away by floods, yet all we see in the media is tsunami this and tsunami that. Local organisations were quickly formed to raise funds for the victims of the tsunami. I don't know of one organisation that was formed for the victims of the Eastern Cape floods.

However - the media only print/screen news that will sell, and the current state of the media seems to indicate that we, as a people are far more interested in remote problems than our own.

Maybe if we could do something about our own problems, we as a people would start to take notice.

So - I ask again - kb - are you thinking of starting something more useful than hellopeter ?

[Liansky]

And then everything fell flat....

[Razer0]

Soooo.. Has anyone thought about when after all of this telkomonopoly bulls*** is/if/when over, ie the HIGH prices combined with total lack of decent service is reduced to world standards, what will come next? So *thinks to future, 2010 maybe* when we're sitting at home with our 100MBit connection like everyone else in the world, and pay R200 or so p/m what then? What happenes to everyone including this forum once everyone gets the connection and price they want? HMMMM

[alchamy]

when we're sitting at home with our 100MBit connection like everyone else in the world, and pay R200 or so p/m what then? What happenes to everyone including this forum once everyone gets the connection and price they want? HMMMM

Then we start up mytoyota.co.za :D

[kb]

kb - are you thinking of starting something more useful than hellopeter ?


Not thinking of starting anything. It was just an example of a well intentioned effort that to my mind has not achieved anything useful on a sustained basis.
I believe the reason for it's perceived failure (my opinion) is that it is to general and without a clearly defined strategy.

Thinking about it again, it is not a good comparison to something like MyADSL. There is undoubtably a place for forums like hellopeter but out of it need to come specific efforts along the lines of MyADSL.

I agree with ic that the internet is a natural fit for something like MyADSL but may not be a suitable medium for many other issues. I still have to ask the question, would the internet not have been a more acceptable medium to far more people, not specifically IT related, had we a world class infrastructure that was realistically priced? This would enable a far greater market penetration that would allow more people to become comfortable with the internet as medium for co-ordinating efforts like MyADSL.

The above is obviously all speculation but should the efforts of MyADSL bring about the change we are all striving for, it will be interesting to see if in the future there is not a greater awakening of the consumer in SA to co-ordinate efforts like MyADSL.

On the Isabel Jones issue, she too was focused on individual consumer complaints that were undoubtably often resolved. The problem is as with hellopeter there was no focus on the reason for the complaint occurring in the first place. Where there was follow up it was usually left up to the supplier to take their own remedial actions. As we know in SA this will never work due to many businesses attitudes towards their customers and the generally apathetic nature of the SA consumer.

[BTTB]

Another viewpoint.

A forum gives people anonymity.
In many cases I think consumers bottle up their gripes, not wanting to be a stick in the mud.
This online method of consumer opinion is anonymous, thus drawing out people that you would normally never hear from.
And controlled the way MyADSL is, can be very productive.

[stoke]

kb - aye.
What does MyADSL do that seems to work though?
A - Education.
This is a biggie, and the service providers should pay MyADSL for this service. We educate each other (At a pretty good success rate), clearing up misunderstandings and misconceptions. This is an invaluable aspect of MyADSL because it creates clarity on what the real issues are.
B - Consensus on Problems.
Now that we are more educated than before, the actual problems are visible, and we agree with each other about these problems. A general consensus is formed, and now we feel like we have a little power, and at the first opportunity, we strike to the best of our ability. This only happens because we are a group of people, nothing would happen singularily.
C - Acknowledgement of Solved/Partially Solved Problems.
Problems that are solved are greeted with grim *smiles*, but it still feels good, like when Teklom inplemented the ability to change your own password. We can now focus on the next set of problems.
D - A Community with Purpose and Character
We are now a community, with some people standing out in the crowd (rpb, bbtb, No-One, Antowan, IC ...). Granted, the contributions made are sometimes useless, but they add to the easy nature of this kind of "meeting", but the people who action stuff are acknolwedged, and that is vital.

So - in any context, these 4 points are needed for a succesful watchdog to work effectively.
Maybe the existing watchdog's should be forced to utilise software like this forum to make them effective.
Its a good point that not even 5% of the population will access the forum, but 5% of the population is still a better sized survey sample than what they currently do.

So far, this thread has mentioned:
- National Consumer Forum (http://www.ncf.org.za/) [Don't have a forum on their site]
- National Consumer Union (http://www.sancu.co.za/) [Don't have a forum on their site]

Are there any others out there?
I want to construct an email about the "apparent" success of myadsl and try to get these buggers to open forums of their own.

[alchamy]

The success of MyADSL is greater than any other attempt to change things for South Africa, but as ic & others have said, its about knowledge and the power that brings.

There are two dynamic types of users on the forum, depending on the topic ofcourse, The clued & the Clueless, each post makes the gap between the 2 smaller, this builds a strong educated community who in turn educates those who dont use the forum etc etc etc.

I think that by this time next year we will see some BIG changes as a direct result of the education MyADSL provides to both the "clued" & "clueless"
If 40% of Telkoms user base knew how badly they were being raped they might apply enough pressure for change.

However you have to remember that Telkom has 4 million landline subscibers. Its a huge task to inform everyone, some people are also just not interested in fighting for Telco freedom, probably because they have never experienced the way things should be.

However with the media attention attracted by the site & the growing Internet community I am sure that things are accelerating to a point of no return.

To apply this principle to other areas of industry should not be that difficult, if its something that people feel strongly about they will contribute. I cant think of anyone that is happy with these prices.

Cars, Food, Housing, Appliances etc. ie the cost of living

They might be used to it but they still dont like it.

imo the solution would be a sister site to MyADSL, one that could draw users from this site to the other one to get things started. Once its up & running word of mouth will do the rest. The MyADSL community was built by dedicated, honest & generally good willed people any other site would need the same start to be truely succesful.

Anyways thats my 2cents. :)

[kb]

Thanks for that stoke. We now seem to be getting to the heart of what has made MyADSL the success it has been to this point.
I agree with the pointing of other organisations to this forum as an example of how an activism, consumer education forum should be run. However at the end of the day the success or failure of any forum hinges on not only the active contribution of a large number of people but also the commitment, guidance and leadership of a few core people. This I believe should be the next point on your list of what makes MyADSL work.

[stoke]

I'm also of the opinion placing a forum on (http://www.ncf.org.za/) will not be as effective as running the forum as a completely separate entity. MyADSL is not aligned to any service provider, or ICASA or ...
Comments?

[kb]

Fully agree stoke. It is essential that we remain totally independent and non-aligned. What I think may help is for sites like (http://www.ncf.org.za/, http://www.hellopeter.com, etc) to provide a links to and some form of listing service for sites like MyADSL. Or is this likely to compromise our independence?

[stoke]

ic - yip.
But seriosuly, like I said before, the opinion of 5% of the earning population is a huge percentage. So - even if only 5% of people use the forum's, that heaps and bounds better than whats happening now.

Um - Join MyBroadBand with HelloPeter. Um. I need rpm's comments on that one. Won't we loose focus?

[bb_matt]

Yeah - pretty much.

Must admit, I find hellopeter more of a plain old whinge-fest than anything else.
The kinda people who rant and rave in the citizen are the types that post there.

[rpm]

Hi Stoke

I think MyADSL/MyBroadband should stay focused on broadband related issues. Peter certainly has a tremendous amount of knowledge about consumer related issues and customer support, but to take on all those companies will take a large organization. It requires a tremendous amount of work to actively address a certain consumer issue (broadband Internet in our case), and one can’t expect everyone to give their time to such a cause…

That is one of the reasons why I think MyADSL is so successful: You guys are willing to visit the site regularly, discuss broadband related issues, highlight the good and bad, give feedback and even help with issues like testing (and correcting my grammar in our reports…thanks Harth & JamieB :D). We have moved away from being a comment related consumer website to a true online community. We also actively address issues (official complaints, media releases etc.) where many other sites only serve to get something off your chest.

Having said all this, we will certainly look to combine forces with anybody where we feel a constructive relationship can be formed. This even includes companies which provide broadband services!

Regards,

RPM

[kilps]

Just back to the price of food thing, a relation of mine is an apple farmer. H eexports his goods to hope make a profit. If sold in sa he would make like, less than a rand for a bag of apples.

[kilps]

I have just had an idea - I have been wanting to try out mambo server properly for a while now so maby i could start a small webpage and see how people respond etc. (The free service i would use will limited registered users to 250 but once we have that many we could get advertising and pay for hosting)

Tell me if you personally would use something like that, if it was updated continusily, or do you think i would be wasting my time? Probly yes after what has happened to UnProudlySA

[alchamy]

I have just had an idea - I have been wanting to try out mambo server properly for a while now so maby i could start a small webpage and see how people respond etc. (The free service i would use will limited registered users to 250 but once we have that many we could get advertising and pay for hosting)

Tell me if you personally would use something like that, if it was updated continusily, or do you think i would be wasting my time? Probly yes after what has happened to UnProudlySA


I would use it, not sure how many other people would though

[rpm]

Hi Stoke

I only read your previous posting regarding MyADSL’s success now. Excellent summary of why the site works! I tried to say exactly what you did already :D

Regards,

RPM

[kb]

At this stage I see the need for two tiers of consumer activism efforts.

Generalized quick fix forum - i.e. hellopeter
Strategically focused forum - i.e MyADSL

The two rather than competing are complimentary. The generalized quick fix forum would be the entry point for the consumer. On the strategic forum I don't believe they should be set up for the sake of having an industry specific forum.

One should only set up this type of forum in response to a bigger picture issue where long term change is the only solution. MyADSL and poor, overpriced telecoms services is a perfect example.

The first tier would focus on individual consumer complaints. Some level of analysis on the complaints received here should be done to establish any long term trend. This would identify the need to establish a more strategic forum.

Stoke and others have pretty much identified the important criteria required to make this type of forum a success. It would then be up to experts and other interested parties in the particular industry to set up and run the forum much as rpm and other excellent people have done for MyADSL.

What I would like to see is active promotion of the strategic forums on the generalized complaints type forum. Active analysis of the trends to identify the bigger picture issues. Attempt to set up specific forums in response to the established trends.

Does this make sense?

[Gooku]

Monopoly & cartel tends to treat its customers more like "hostages"

Consumer activism is our last resort as a measure of "self-defence" against unreasonable profiteering

and the predicament of "toothless Watchdog" and the lack of antitrust regulations.

[RealXchange]

Greetings all.

Talking specifically about broadband offerings and consumer choice, does anyone remember the days when small private businesses were trying to set up wireless internet within small suburbs. I had someone climbing up a ladder to see if the top of a building I could see in the distance (and swore was their transmitter tower) was in fact what I claimed. The guy and his partner (who apparently were trying to deliver a professional service) told me they would drive off in the direction of that block of flats and would let me know if my hopes were to be dashed or not. They were obviously too busy and didnt come back to me....and I had to wait for Telkom to launch ADSL. The issue behind consumer choice, especially around broadband offerings, is that although today there are now more players in the market, thus giving consumers the freedom to choose alternatives, I still believe we arent at the point where the competition to Telkom is as good as Telkom, unfortunately. We see new players like iBurst and sad stories like Sentech. The question then is, how can consumers use their power of choice when the choices are made difficult by competitors who havent yet got down the road of service delivery. When they do, there wont be a need for a central comsumer voice. We will simply sign up with someone else....which is always the loudest consumer voice of all.

:)

just my two cents worth.

Dean
www.realxchange.co.za/resellerplan.html

[Gooku]

It take 2 days to send money from SA to Switzerland.


Why does it also take 2 days to send money from ABSA to Standard bank? (often in the same building or even right next door)


Banks are holding our money hostage for 2 days to force comsumers opening accounts in all banks.


SAbanks must respect consumer rights .and get their acts together.


Can the regulators please look into this ?