The ANC and the fall of the Berlin Wall

NameOfBeast

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Paul Trewhela writes at politicsweb:
Paul Trewhela on an anniversary the ruling party should not forget to remember

Monday 9th November is an anniversary of first rate importance in South Africa, to be met with silence by its main beneficiary, the African National Congress, as ruling party of the state. Its non-commemoration arises from a tangle of contradictions as sharp as razor-wire.

On 9 November 1989, twenty years ago, the Berlin Wall cracked open, the Cold War in Europe came to an end, the Soviet empire tottered to its grave...and the ANC military option lost whatever teeth it might have had.

The military/security state erected by the National Party never lost a centimetre squared of its soil. Umkhonto weSizwe, the military wing of the ANC and the South African Communist Party, never won a centimetre squared of soil.

True, the repeated mass mobilisations and popular uprisings within South Africa through the Seventies and the Eighties placed a colossal strain upon the regime, and, true, the economic strain upon the state - especially in conditions of attrition exercised against it by the US banking system - placed it under further serious pressures.

Nevertheless, honest accounting must say that, given the continuation of the Cold War system in Africa, this nuclear-armed state at its southen tip was nowhere near collapse.

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/politicsweb/view/politicsweb/en/page71619?oid=149514&sn=Detail
 
.... south africa in the 1970,80 and up to 1996 could have defeated the entire africa.

We now have 10 000 or less combat ready troops, zimbabwe could invade us and win...
 
.... south africa in the 1970,80 and up to 1996 could have defeated the entire africa.

We now have 10 000 or less combat ready troops, zimbabwe could invade us and win...

Southern Africa probably, not the whole africa.

There's a few Arab countries up North who would've given us a few issues.
 
.... south africa in the 1970,80 and up to 1996 could have defeated the entire africa.

We now have 10 000 or less combat ready troops, zimbabwe could invade us and win...

Unfortunately not completely. Remember Angola? Remember how the Russians helped them out and they came in with planes and some serious fire power?

Yeah, that's why we stopped cause we lost 1000's[edited] of young promising men in that stupid needless war.

I doubt we would have done much. Its obviously just my opinion. And I agree we had a great Military in the day, it just didn't really compare to the Russians etc.
 
The fall of the wall ended the STRUGGLE ( Not the words we defeated apartheid) The minority Gov. was supported to fight communism. After
the fall of the wall no need anymore. Just wonder how much money changed hands after handing SA on a silverplatter to the ANC?
 
What were the causality figures for the war in Angola?

The irony is the liberal supporters of the ANC opposed so fiercely the policies of the western democracies that brought down the wall. If they had got their way during the 80s the wall might still be there along with the Apartheid government. Or at least it would've lasted another decade :o
 
He's mostly right. Except for Cuito Cuanavale, where the Cubans were given an incredible hiding by the SADF, but the SADF couldn't say anything as they weren't meant to be there in those numbers but only in hot pursuit of SWAPO. This silence has created a gap for the other side to claim a victory when in fact there was a massive defeat by the SADF.
 

I'm not sure why this is news. This has been established truth around the world - the SA government was tacitly supported by the West - to counter Soviet expansionism either directly or via SWAPO/Cuban proxies. With the fall of the Soviet Union (which resulted in the fall of the Berlin Wall and liberation of WTO countries) the impetus for keeping the National Party regime in power fell away and PW Botha was told to bring in democracy - we all know that FW De Klerk then took over and ran the referendum in which most whites gave him the mandate to begin the democratization process of SA.
 
He's mostly right. Except for Cuito Cuanavale, where the Cubans were given an incredible hiding by the SADF, but the SADF couldn't say anything as they weren't meant to be there in those numbers but only in hot pursuit of SWAPO. This silence has created a gap for the other side to claim a victory when in fact there was a massive defeat by the SADF.

Actually there was no obvious victor. I know. I was there. We took a ****load of losses. It was not pleasant. Would not be sustainable.
 
What were the causality figures for the war in Angola

I read somewhere that about 1700 soldiers died in the 23 years of fighting, with about 500-600 of those being killed in accidents. I'll try find the source.
 
Unfortunately not completely. Remember Angola? Remember how the Russians helped them out and they came in with planes and some serious fire power?

Yeah, that's why we stopped cause we lost 1000's[edited] of young promising men in that stupid needless war.

I doubt we would have done much. Its obviously just my opinion. And I agree we had a great Military in the day, it just didn't really compare to the Russians etc.

didn't Angola get the beating of their life?:P The worse soldier the world has ever seen is probably MK/ Swapo,

If we want a reason why apartheid ended, then the berlin wall probably contributed the most imho. I doubt sanctions from the west would have happen if the nats could still justify fighting communism.

I found a nice site about the border war here : http://www.sa-soldier.com/data/index.htm
 
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We HAD a great military & defense... with the ANC ... it fell apart
We need an invasion for the people to realize how useless they are... ;)

I imagine they would strike in war to demand a pay increase.
 
Actually there was no obvious victor. I know. I was there. We took a ****load of losses. It was not pleasant. Would not be sustainable.

This is what I was talking about. First hand experience as I know about 10 guys that was in active conflict and even though we did do well. The Russian support hurt our guys bad...but I wasn't there I just heard it through drunken stories.
 
Absolute CR@P

.... south africa in the 1970,80 and up to 1996 could have defeated the entire africa.

Absolute RUBBISH

The SADF could not even get past Quito-Cuanavale and ANGOLA

The NUKE option -- what a JOKE

WHAT do you think would have happened if SA had used the "SAMSON" option :erm:


Please do your HOMEWORK -- start by reading about the handicaps the SAAF faced with the Radar coverage and SAM's in Angola.

It is one thing to win ONE battle -- another to win the WAR.


MW
 
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