The True Spirit of "Uncapped"

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SabreWolfy

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OP Reinstated :)

EDIT: I posted the following, then changed my mind and deleted the post. By that time, a few people had already read the thread and posted replies, so it's only fair that I reinstate the original post :)



I don't want to start a flame war. I don't want this thread to turn into a juvenile back-and-forth of insulting comments. Rather, let's have a rational discussion. I have an uncapped 384kbps line from MWeb. I've read the Terms and Conditions as they stand at the moment. I'm going to play devil's advocate in raising the following issue.

Before I make my point, some background and context. Bear with me. Consider the environment under which MWeb released the first affordable uncapped service into the country. Most residential users had capped lines, with 1, 2, 3, 5GB caps. They used internet access for browsing websites, email, occassional downloads and as much streaming as they could patiently wait for. The frustration came in reaching the cap before the end of the month. So if you had a 2GB cap, you may actually need 2.5GB or 3GB in some months. Maybe more in others, maybe less in still others.

Enter the uncapped service. As with any mainstream service, it is aimed at the "average" user. MWeb has removed the "cap" so that the average user can continue to use the Internet as they did before, but maybe now streaming (more) video, downloading (more) podcasts or software.

A small proportion of users now see the opportunity for using the uncapped service for continuous power-downloading. The service is advertised as "uncapped" so they are are entitled to queue downloads flat-out for the whole month. The T&C of at least one ISP in SA offering an uncapped service specifically mentions that the service is not aimed at power-downloaders. MWeb's T&C include no such clause.

Here's my point. Don't flame me -- discuss the issue.

Such power-downloaders, who are forever bleating on these forums about download speeds not meeting their expectations and requesting exact details of the shaping protocols, are not using the uncapped service in the spirit in which it was intended despite there being no direct prohibition or sanction by MWeb against such use. ADSL is a shared service -- everyone with an account is entitled to a good service. The uncapped service is intended to allow everyone to use the Internet without having to monitor or curtail their normal usage. The uncapped service gives everyone headroom.

Don't flame me -- discuss the issue. Here's the contentious point.

Can anyone give clear details on what power-downloaders are downloading via torrents and news servers every month? It is possible for so many power users to have a need to download gigabytes and gigabytes of legal content every month? Educate me -- explain what is being downloaded every month such that you need to "max out" an uncapped service? Downloading a game patch may require a few hundred gigabytes in one month. Downloading movies from I-Tunes store may require a tens of gigabytes. Are users downloading hundreds of purchased movies every month? How many people are doing this?

Consider the intention behind the uncapped service and then consider your usage compared to that. Why is it so often the case that when you give "people" something, they take as much as possible. Look at behaviour at a buffet meal. "People" will pile their plates high with everything, and leave half of it when they leave. Who cares? They paid for it -- they can pile 10 plates high and leave it all if they wish? The same with uncapped ADSL? I can download for the sake of it because I can and because I paid for it and no-one can tell me I can't?

To conclude -- is it unreasonable to expect a certain measure of "responsible" usage of services? Buy and uncapped line and download whatever you need. But don't waste. We all have to get our slice of the pie.

Discuss. Don't flame. Peace.
 
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I agree completely with your sentiment and with the spirit in which uncapped was introduced in SA. Users should remember that we do not have the same system as other countries, i.e. everyone always having been uncapped, which means that our uncapped accounts are under a lot of strain with generally only high-usage customers signing up. One could say that they shouldn't introduce uncapped if they can not afford to allow everyone to download as much as they want, but then with our current capping system you might well never see uncapped at a reasonable price in SA. We have to start the process of moving everyone over to uncapped sooner or later, and it is very costly for the ISP's to make this move, mostly for our benefit, at the moment. I think we should be appreciative of this in any case.

I must say I also quickly did about 60GB on my Afrihost uncapped account in the last week of March, but since then I have run out of steam and I'm only really downloading what I want when I need it. Unfortunately Afrihost have already buckled under the pressure and now their accounts are too restrictive for me, even though my usage would have quickly decreased in the next few months.

To answer your question: What I downloaded was a large torrent of a game (15GB) which I'd had my eye on but could never afford before, and quite a few movies, some HD which I've also wanted for a long time. After this I don't have anything that I want to download really, and my usage will probably make Mweb a profit now. What others download is simply just about every new movie, game, series etc that they think they might be interested in, or not at all. You'll see this happening if you were ever on the local torrent sites, people download just about everything that comes out.
 
Why start a thread and delete your OP? Wtf man, now we must just sommer guess what you said, especially after someone took the time to type out a lengthy response.
 
By the way, despite all your pleas you will be flamed with something along the lines of: "The spirit of uncapped is that it's UNCAPPED so we can download as much as we want of anything and it's none of your business."

I also find this a rather inconsiderate attitude to a shared service that is costing ISP's money to offer us at the moment.
 
It's quite easy in this day and age to download a 35-50GB Blu ray/HD movie fully legal from a service that charges a monthly fee. When you consider that's roughly 2 days to download is it not possible to watch three or four movies a week especially if you don't have DSTV?
 
Look at the moment there is massive pent up demand so users will be in a download frenzy. And yes you can easily knock back 200gb in a month if you start backing up your entire harddrive online (dropbox is what I use for instance).
 
Alestorm said:
Well, here is the OP which my page had not refreshed (I'm not sure why it was deleted either, it made a good point. So apologies to the OP for reposting but i would like the see the responses to the thread):

"I don't want to start a flame war. I don't want this thread to turn into a juvenile back-and-forth of insulting comments. Rather, let's have a rational discussion. I have an uncapped 384kbps line from MWeb. I've read the Terms and Conditions as they stand at the moment. I'm going to play devil's advocate in raising the following issue.

Before I make my point, some background and context. Bear with me. Consider the environment under which MWeb released the first affordable uncapped service into the country. Most residential users had capped lines, with 1, 2, 3, 5GB caps. They used internet access for browsing websites, email, occassional downloads and as much streaming as they could patiently wait for. The frustration came in reaching the cap before the end of the month. So if you had a 2GB cap, you may actually need 2.5GB or 3GB in some months. Maybe more in others, maybe less in still others.

Enter the uncapped service. As with any mainstream service, it is aimed at the "average" user. MWeb has removed the "cap" so that the average user can continue to use the Internet as they did before, but maybe now streaming (more) video, downloading (more) podcasts or software.

A small proportion of users now see the opportunity for using the uncapped service for continuous power-downloading. The service is advertised as "uncapped" so they are are entitled to queue downloads flat-out for the whole month. The T&C of at least one ISP in SA offering an uncapped service specifically mentions that the service is not aimed at power-downloaders. MWeb's T&C include no such clause.

Here's my point. Don't flame me -- discuss the issue.

Such power-downloaders, who are forever bleating on these forums about download speeds not meeting their expectations and requesting exact details of the shaping protocols, are not using the uncapped service in the spirit in which it was intended despite there being no direct prohibition or sanction by MWeb against such use. ADSL is a shared service -- everyone with an account is entitled to a good service. The uncapped service is intended to allow everyone to use the Internet without having to monitor or curtail their normal usage. The uncapped service gives everyone headroom.

Don't flame me -- discuss the issue. Here's the contentious point.

Can anyone give clear details on what power-downloaders are downloading via torrents and news servers every month? It is possible for so many power users to have a need to download gigabytes and gigabytes of legal content every month? Educate me -- explain what is being downloaded every month such that you need to "max out" an uncapped service? Downloading a game patch may require a few hundred gigabytes in one month. Downloading movies from I-Tunes store may require a tens of gigabytes. Are users downloading hundreds of purchased movies every month? How many people are doing this?

Consider the intention behind the uncapped service and then consider your usage compared to that. Why is it so often the case that when you give "people" something, they take as much as possible. Look at behaviour at a buffet meal. "People" will pile their plates high with everything, and leave half of it when they leave. Who cares? They paid for it -- they can pile 10 plates high and leave it all if they wish? The same with uncapped ADSL? I can download for the sake of it because I can and because I paid for it and no-one can tell me I can't?

To conclude -- is it unreasonable to expect a certain measure of "responsible" usage of services? Buy and uncapped line and download whatever you need. But don't waste. We all have to get our slice of the pie.

Discuss. Don't flame. Peace."
Click to expand...


Exactly my point!

Vast Majority of our "Broadband" users aren't bandwith hogs. They don't have the skills/inclination required to download a torrent/buy a rapidshare account(Http Downloads).

Those who download 24/7 are parasites and should just consider joining a Wireless Networking Community instead.. (Read My Signature please)
 
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Yeah - I was terrible in the UK as although I don't care much for the media and publish rip-off I don't like 'officially' breaking the law.

Therefore, I'd download TV series that I'd missed and still do... especially as I can't get the decent UK ones here. I'd then delete them after watching... however, if someone else wanted to watch I'd download again as it only took 10-15 minutes on my 8M line.... it did end up chowing through a fair amount of GB... but still... never over a few hundred GB and that was in a bad month.

However, like everyone says, downloading a few Games to test or HD movies to preview chows bandwidth up hugely... very happy I do neither!
 
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MJ INC said:
It's quite easy in this day and age to download a 35-50GB Blu ray/HD movie fully legal from a service that charges a monthly fee. When you consider that's roughly 2 days to download is it not possible to watch three or four movies a week especially if you don't have DSTV?
Click to expand...

Hmm 35-50GB? Even full 1080p movies are around 14GB.. and 720p is fine mostly.
 
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pjoub06 said:
Look at the moment there is massive pent up demand so users will be in a download frenzy. And yes you can easily knock back 200gb in a month if you start backing up your entire harddrive online (dropbox is what I use for instance).
Click to expand...

4mbit down max
512kbit up max

512kbit = 64Kilobytes/1000Kilobytes = 16 seconds per megabyte

200 gigs = 200 000 megabytes = 200 000 x 16 seconds

3million 200 000 seconds / 60 seconds = minutes
53333 / 60 minutes = hours
888 Hours

37 days :D
You can not easily upload youre whole hard drive in a month or even 2 months, unless you dedicate a whole 4mbit line for the purpose.

But I agree, if the line speed wasn't as crap, I am sure there are many ways to burn cap on the new 2.0 web
 
Lots of shows, podcasts and vidcasts online...enough to keep us busy forever and a day. Never mind the HD content that is becoming more and more common!

Now on the subject of fair use: NO chance of that happening, and not for a while. We have been broadband starved, and you cannot expect that people who have had the limits we have had to stay within a certain limit. It will be a pendulum swing from one side to the other....but at some point it will even out. You will still have bandwidth hogs, but they will become less and less the more used to bandwidth we become. The bandwidth hogs will consist mainly of young kiddies and dealers who thinks their genital size depends on how much content they have, or the one or two losers who have nothing to do all day but download. But people change, people go through stages...allow them to.

Besides, I dare say, in 10 years time an average home will easily use more than a Terabyte of data...most probably even 5 to 10 times that!
 
francoislr said:
Lots of shows, podcasts and vidcasts online...enough to keep us busy forever and a day. Never mind the HD content that is becoming more and more common!
Click to expand...

Except the point here is exactly that it can "keep us busy for forever and a day". No one actually has the time to be watching vidcasts or listening to podcasts that can use up a significant amount of bandwidth. And of course most people are not doing this at all, in fact I doubt even 1% of the new uncapped subscribers are. People are downloading movies and series to watch some other time, or just to have. The OP wasn't asking how can someone use up large amounts of data, rather why and how.

Not that I'm saying there aren't legit ways to use the bandwidth, or that downloading lots of HD content that you actually intend to watch is wrong, but that isn't generally what's happening in my opinion.
 
Tweak said:
Exactly my point!

Vast Majority of our "Broadband" users aren't bandwith hogs. They don't have the skills/inclination required to download a torrent/buy a rapidshare account(Http Downloads).

Those who download 24/7 are parasites and should just consider joining a Wireless Networking Community instead.. (Read My Signature please)
Click to expand...

Thanks to everyone who replied to the thread and posted the OP after I changed my mind and deleted it. I've reinstated it now :)

I agree and I'm sure MWeb has done its homework and regularly monitors usage. I used 5GB in total last month -- I only had uncapped service for the last part of the month anyway.

A few posts have mentioned downloading TV series, games, movies. Are these all purchased downloads? It's possible to purchase and download TV series? Or is piracy so rife that people are happy to admit to it on a forum such as this?

I guess what I'm trying to say is the following -- and hence the reason for my flame-deflector: I'm sick and tired of the constant bleating on the forums about download speeds and shaping and people going on about how much they've downloaded or how much they want to etc., when I suspect that most (all?) of what they are downloading is illegal pirated material. It's like complaining to the manufacturer of a car that it can't get to 200k/hr. It's illegal to drive at that speed (forget about private roads and race-tracks and whatnot) -- so whether your car goes 200k/hr or not is irrelevant. Technical support and other services are obliged to respond to all such queries. I just think of how much effort is wasted pandering to people who are hammering the line and loading the service to pull down gigabytes of pirated material. Everyone's browsing and usage is private -- of course, as it should be -- so there is no real way to determine what usage is legal and what is not.

I would NOT be sick and tired of people complaining about the service if it was poor and they were trying to browse the web or get their email and so on -- if they were using the service in the true spirit it was intended.

I would just hate for the uncapped market to change for the worse (prices increase, usage-based "caps" be imposed, etc.) as a direct response to the selfish behaviour of the power-downloaders who torrent the lines flat to pull down as much crud as they can because they can. Then all the rest of us suffer.
 
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francoislr said:
Lots of shows, podcasts and vidcasts online...enough to keep us busy forever and a day. Never mind the HD content that is becoming more and more common!

Now on the subject of fair use: NO chance of that happening, and not for a while. We have been broadband starved, and you cannot expect that people who have had the limits we have had to stay within a certain limit. It will be a pendulum swing from one side to the other....but at some point it will even out. You will still have bandwidth hogs, but they will become less and less the more used to bandwidth we become. The bandwidth hogs will consist mainly of young kiddies and dealers who thinks their genital size depends on how much content they have, or the one or two losers who have nothing to do all day but download. But people change, people go through stages...allow them to.

Besides, I dare say, in 10 years time an average home will easily use more than a Terabyte of data...most probably even 5 to 10 times that!
Click to expand...

Agreed.
 
Alestorm said:
Except the point here is exactly that it can "keep us busy for forever and a day". No one actually has the time to be watching vidcasts or listening to podcasts that can use up a significant amount of bandwidth. And of course most people are not doing this at all, in fact I doubt even 1% of the new uncapped subscribers are. People are downloading movies and series to watch some other time, or just to have. The OP wasn't asking how can someone use up large amounts of data, rather why and how.

Not that I'm saying there aren't legit ways to use the bandwidth, or that downloading lots of HD content that you actually intend to watch is wrong, but that isn't generally what's happening in my opinion.
Click to expand...

Agreed again. You can't stream video and watch downloaded material all the time. What we perceive as high usage at the moment is, I'm sure, a direct response to the previous restrictive environment. Hopefully this will level-out with time and people will download what they need when they need it, rather than going crazy and "stock-piling" gigabytes of (illegal?) downloads.
 
SabreWolfy said:
Agreed again. You can't stream video and watch downloaded material all the time. What we perceive as high usage at the moment is, I'm sure, a direct response to the previous restrictive environment. Hopefully this will level-out with time and people will download what they need when they need it, rather than going crazy and "stock-piling" gigabytes of (illegal?) downloads.
Click to expand...

Agreed...I would rather download a video and watch it now than download and store as we have to atm because of the slow speeds....we have been mind raped by the internet we had...people will get used to it at some point.
 
Got nothing to do with spirit. It's called business, you advertise a product, we buy it and we expect you to deliver on what you advertised.

You get our money, we get what you advertised, everybody happy ;)
 
ponder said:
Got nothing to do with spirit. It's called business, you advertise a product, we buy it and we expect you to deliver on what you advertised.

You get our money, we get what you advertised, everybody happy ;)
Click to expand...

Within the Terms & Conditions. And we are still waiting for the updated version from MWeb. I forget which local ISP it is that specifically mentions in their T&C that their uncapped service is not intended for power-downloaders and effectively imposes a 200GB cap on their uncapped users. I'd hate for MWeb to be "forced" to go that route ...

Would MWeb realistically be able to offer uncapped ADSL at the price it is if everyone who subscribed to the service downloaded at maximum speed 24/7? Or do they rely on the fact that 10% of the users will use 90% of the bandwidth, or 20:80 or whatever.
 
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