View Full Version : Gauteng’s intelligent number plate project (iNP)
Intelligent number plates for Gauteng (http://mybroadband.co.za/news/general/13040-Intelligent-number-plates-for-Gauteng.html)
With the imminent launch of Gauteng’s intelligent number plate project (iNP), the foremost question on the minds of vehicle owners has to be: is another expensive system really necessary?
Roadrunner
13-06-2010, 12:25 AM
RFID security has already been defeated a few years ago.
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=2107&tag=nl.e019
How long before SA's criminals take advantage of this?
Also, the police are too afraid/lazy or have no transport, to go after a lot of criminals they do have the addresses of NOW, how will this system make any difference where that is concerned?
MoHaG
13-06-2010, 01:45 AM
The RFID security is not the major issue here (if it contains a non-programmable, unique identity number as the only data. The attack linked above is about stored-value cards)... Using a receiver and transmitter to repeat a tag's info might be a threat...
The real problem is the unique identifier that is easily machine-readable.... It allows for criminals to be tracked on the freeways (when combined with the toll-system planned), but it also results in your location being saved in several places (with no guarantees of privacy, in say, a divorce case / from officials being bribed by criminals / stalkers)...
Shopping centres can also use these for things like parking, and by associating the ticket issued to the number plate, track shopping habits of users (who can reveal their identities in exchange for discount on parking to give an example). When users constantly benefit form using something connected to a tag, shopping habits can be tracked quite extensively...
Other scary uses of the tags: Access control (offices / complexes) (will also result in personal information being connected to the unique ID)
Another potential problem: How hard is it to disable the RFID tag (especially on someone else's vehicle)? How many systems dependant on the tag will malfunction in its absence? How will they malfunction?
PeterCH
13-06-2010, 01:49 AM
It's necessary because businesses affiliated with high ranking ANC members need this job.
MoHaG
13-06-2010, 01:56 AM
RFID security has already been defeated a few years ago.
http://blogs.techrepublic.com.com/tech-news/?p=2107&tag=nl.e019
How long before SA's criminals take advantage of this?
Based on http://www.itssa.org/files/events/2009/e_transport/presentations/day2session2/John_Churcher.pdf, The Gautrain does use the vulnerable cards though...
It's necessary because businesses affiliated with high ranking ANC members need this job.
Do you have any evidence for that statement, or did you just make it up?
Aragon
13-06-2010, 04:46 AM
Actually, the real issue here is the invasion of privacy. Now the government wants to keep a digital record of every citizen's movements? It aint going to happen without a fight!
markings
13-06-2010, 04:56 AM
Actually, the real issue here is the invasion of privacy. Now the government wants to keep a digital record of every citizen's movements? It aint going to happen without a fight!
With FICA and the triangulation via cell phone, keeping track of movements is already possible.
TimTDP
13-06-2010, 05:47 AM
what if the same system in turn created over 3 000 jobs
How do you justify this statement?
Reads like the anti-piracy mob stating that piracacy destroys 50,000 jobs like
does not make sense!
KillerX
13-06-2010, 07:39 AM
The only reason for these 'smart plates' is for tolling...
See this:
http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?240233-Nevermind-Eskom...
what happens to people with foreign number plates? Like lesotho or namibia?
ToxicBunny
13-06-2010, 07:57 AM
They don't pay tolls and get to drive on the roads fro free....
Didn't you know, you can't tax foreigners, so therefore you must overtax your own citizens so the foreigners can have a nice visit here...
Fazda
13-06-2010, 08:16 AM
Do you have any evidence for that statement, or did you just make it up?
A statement like that doesn't need any evidence at this point as the chances that this will create jobs for friends of ANC officials is a 99% given fact. I would be most surprised if that was not the case.
If they are going to implement yet another expensive "new idea" to our roads, why only Gauteng?
What happens when I arrive in GP with my KZN plates that are not "intelligent"?
As usual...just as they did with the OBE system, we are chasing our tails to change a system that is already operating relatively well. If these plates cut out car theft, then that would be great, but then we have to start talking about pigs flying don't we?
bradel
13-06-2010, 09:24 AM
If a citizen is not doing anything wrong, then he/she would not have any worry regarding the tag system. Those that transgress will no doubt, object. Come on guys not everything is bad. If we accept certain protocols then we will be a much better person in SA. Look at eNATIS for example. It was a complete stuff up and for ages and at HUGE cost. But now it is working ok, I registered something recently and had no problem other than a little crowding. It's better than no system at all. And thats mostly my point. Lastly quite a few governments make these decisions and trip over their decisions. In Melbourne Australia their smarttag system for their train/tram/bus system is a complete failure and is still not right after like 18-24 months.
gregmcc
13-06-2010, 09:27 AM
Actually, the real issue here is the invasion of privacy. Now the government wants to keep a digital record of every citizen's movements? It aint going to happen without a fight!
Were almost as bad as China. First they want to ban p0rn, then this. What's next....ISP's going to block Google?!
Synaesthesia
13-06-2010, 09:28 AM
This is a brilliant idea, it's just a replacement for your registration plate, but in electronic form.
bradel
13-06-2010, 09:31 AM
Were almost as bad as China. First they want to ban p0rn, then this. What's next....ISP's going to block Google?!
Nope the article states that no personal info will be stored. Its merely a confirmation of your vehicles ID. Doesnt matter who is driving it.
Fazda
13-06-2010, 09:52 AM
If a citizen is not doing anything wrong, then he/she would not have any worry regarding the tag system. Those that transgress will no doubt, object. Come on guys not everything is bad. If we accept certain protocols then we will be a much better person in SA. Look at eNATIS for example. It was a complete stuff up and for ages and at HUGE cost. But now it is working ok, I registered something recently and had no problem other than a little crowding. It's better than no system at all. And thats mostly my point. Lastly quite a few governments make these decisions and trip over their decisions. In Melbourne Australia their smarttag system for their train/tram/bus system is a complete failure and is still not right after like 18-24 months.
That is why I mentioned the OBE system which has been a dismal failure, when we adopted it after it bombed in Australia....what is it with the government that they have to adopt systems that fail in other places??
MoHaG
13-06-2010, 10:25 AM
With FICA and the triangulation via cell phone, keeping track of movements is already possible.
But you can avoid those by using cash / turning off your phone....
HavocXphere
13-06-2010, 10:30 AM
That article is conspicuously free of details regarding implementation timeline. That plus RPM's use of "imminent" suggests that we'll be teleporting anyway by the time this kicks in.
The aluminium material on its own has the benefit of virtual indestructibility in the case of fire or explosion
Aluminium...virtual indestructible. :wtf:
MoHaG
13-06-2010, 10:35 AM
If a citizen is not doing anything wrong, then he/she would not have any worry regarding the tag system. Those that transgress will no doubt, object. Come on guys not everything is bad. If we accept certain protocols then we will be a much better person in SA.
The problem is not just that law-enforcement can get the information... The problem is that once information gets collected, it can possibly be leaked / stolen / sold / ordered to be released for civil cases, etc
Also anyone with a reader can track a vehicle. (And connecting personal information to a vehicle is easy - just make it a requirement for a discount / competition entry / access-control somewhere that you can not avoid going (security complex / office park))
pookfuzz
13-06-2010, 10:58 AM
Mr Numberplate meet Mr Microwave Oven. Problem solved.
I remember doing a project on cell tracking but that alone will not stand together in a court of law.
Now car tagging and cell tracking seems like it will stand.
Post 9/11 everything we do is being tracked. Add Google street imagine how all this info can be used in the wrong hands and even worst marketers!!!
paulmaritz
13-06-2010, 11:13 AM
More good money down the drain.
gregmcc
13-06-2010, 11:30 AM
Nope the article states that no personal info will be stored. Its merely a confirmation of your vehicles ID. Doesnt matter who is driving it.
It might state that but there is no guarantee.
Synaesthesia
13-06-2010, 11:48 AM
Well there are so many ways to track someone, if the government wants to track you they will regardlessly! This doesn't change much. Anyway, it's clearly necessary for the upcoming Toll roads.
Barge
13-06-2010, 01:19 PM
What's the going rate for Aluminium at scrap merchants? Soon you won't only be losing your brass house numbers, but your registration plates too.
Aragon
13-06-2010, 01:21 PM
If a citizen is not doing anything wrong, then he/she would not have any worry regarding the tag system. Those that transgress will no doubt, object. Come on guys not everything is bad. If we accept certain protocols then we will be a much better person in SA.
Sure, not everything is bad and this isn't necessarily bad either, but it gives the government great leverage against private citizens that they will use against them regardless of the morality or logic behind it. In this world of money, greed, competition and self-preservation there is no shortage of bad morals. A system like this does nothing for crime either. It may stop criminals, but stopping criminals and stopping crime are two quite different objectives. A society can not stop crime if it just focuses on stopping criminals. There will always be more criminals if a society continues to reinforce the environmental conditions that create them. This system would be a symptomatic treatment at best, not a treatment for the disease causing the symptoms. Just as in medicine symptomatic treatments carry side-effects too (loss off freedom, privacy, etc.).
If the government is so eager to spend millions of our tax money "fighting crime", why don't they use it to build a society where there is no incentive or need for crime?
TheGuy
13-06-2010, 01:26 PM
They don't pay tolls and get to drive on the roads fro free....
Didn't you know, you can't tax foreigners, so therefore you must overtax your own citizens so the foreigners can have a nice visit here...
So if I buy a car in Swaziland and drive it here I won't have to pay toll fees?
UnUnOctium
13-06-2010, 01:51 PM
The RFID security is not the major issue here (if it contains a non-programmable, unique identity number as the only data. The attack linked above is about stored-value cards)... Using a receiver and transmitter to repeat a tag's info might be a threat...
The real problem is the unique identifier that is easily machine-readable.... It allows for criminals to be tracked on the freeways (when combined with the toll-system planned), but it also results in your location being saved in several places (with no guarantees of privacy, in say, a divorce case / from officials being bribed by criminals / stalkers)...
Shopping centres can also use these for things like parking, and by associating the ticket issued to the number plate, track shopping habits of users (who can reveal their identities in exchange for discount on parking to give an example). When users constantly benefit form using something connected to a tag, shopping habits can be tracked quite extensively...
Other scary uses of the tags: Access control (offices / complexes) (will also result in personal information being connected to the unique ID)
Another potential problem: How hard is it to disable the RFID tag (especially on someone else's vehicle)? How many systems dependant on the tag will malfunction in its absence? How will they malfunction?
It's brilliant. As you mentioned, easy to clone the output, no need to decrypt. But the best bit is how easy it will be to simply not pay these automatic tolls they intend to impose. All one needs to do is read up on the system they're implementing (identical copy of an international ISO standard) and build some small 'device' [ ;) ] which can 'deafen' said system :p I know I'll be making one (or a few) if they start implementing this.
ToxicBunny
13-06-2010, 02:25 PM
So if I buy a car in Swaziland and drive it here I won't have to pay toll fees?
Well at least on these new wonderful toll-as-you-drive roads... unless you register the vehicle in this country and they figure out how to bill you for it.
ToxicBunny
13-06-2010, 02:26 PM
It's brilliant. As you mentioned, easy to clone the output, no need to decrypt. But the best bit is how easy it will be to simply not pay these automatic tolls they intend to impose. All one needs to do is read up on the system they're implementing (identical copy of an international ISO standard) and build some small 'device' [ ;) ] which can 'deafen' said system :p I know I'll be making one (or a few) if they start implementing this.
Should your "rfid" tag not work, they'll base it on photos of the number plate... so you'll pay anyway.
Voltorr
13-06-2010, 03:58 PM
I'm not sure I'm as keen about this idea as Hans is but if you are a good citizen and don't do anything wrong why be worried? Well the British thought the Americans weren't being very good citizens at the Boston tea party....... Didn't Churchill say something about giving up privacy for safety and landing up with neither?
bradel
13-06-2010, 06:43 PM
There are some really valid points here, BUT. If we are worried that "they say" it wont contain private info there are much better ways to track and remove true privacy, potentially without many or any knowing. Why go to this length if that was the intention. I am not convinced.
BobJones
13-06-2010, 06:44 PM
Mr Numberplate meet Mr Microwave Oven. Problem solved.
What happened the last time you put some aluminum foil in you microwave?
Sounds like a good couple of whacks with a hammer before the plates get fitted should do the trick.
Or how about another piece of aluminum?
If the RFID is embedded in the plate, how does it transmit thru the metal?
MidnightWizard
13-06-2010, 08:39 PM
Actually, the real issue here is the invasion of privacy.
Now the government wants to keep a digital record of every citizen's movements? It aint going to happen without a fight!
Soon EVERYONE will have one of these. ( Just in time for the new updated H.A.N.I.S )
"THEY" are not putting up advanced CCTV ( tied in to the fibre cables ) every ten km on the N3 for nothing.
Privacy is LONG gone -- people should now start worrying about the "slap-riem" waarmee hulle nou gevange is.
The DOMPAS guys at Sharpeville in 1960 woke up a bit late.
These modern systems make the DOMPAS look like a movie ticket --
and
most people have also left it FAR too late -- AGAIN :(
HINT:
WHY were people that failed to carry the DOMPAS at ALL times -- CRIMINALS ???????
THINK about that before crying the normal excuse --
I HAVE NOTHING TO HIDE.
I AM NOT A CRIMINAL
MidnightWizard
13-06-2010, 08:51 PM
There are some really valid points here, BUT. If we are worried that "they say" it wont contain private info there are much better ways to track and remove true privacy, potentially without many or any knowing.
Why go to this length if that was the intention.
I am not convinced.
HOW would YOU know IF it contains private data ???
CAN YOU read the machine code on the drivers licence ???
WILL YOU be able to read the machine code contained in the HANIS smartcard ????
DO YOU have access to the STATES databases ????
I thought so :erm::mad:
MidnightWizard
13-06-2010, 09:05 PM
Well the British thought the Americans weren't being very good citizens at the Boston tea party
....... Didn't Churchill say something about giving up privacy for safety and landing up with neither?
You really mix up your history,
Have a look at the true story of the "Boston Tea Party"
You may find it quite different to what you thought.
You may also want to get your quotes correct and attributed to the right person.
do really trust this corrupt government to have your best interest at heart?
MFour
14-06-2010, 08:12 AM
I doubt that these plates will be any sort of deterrent for criminal activity. Any person intent on committing a crime simply has to remove the vehicle's number plate, and that's that. To use that as a sales point is very short sighted IMO. First we need to get proper levels of law enforcement (without the corrupt element), i.e. people driving without plates are pulled off and fined heavily, or the vehicle impounded, only then can this type of thing be meaningful in a "law enforcement" context.
Voltorr
14-06-2010, 08:21 AM
You really mix up your history,
Have a look at the true story of the "Boston Tea Party"
You may find it quite different to what you thought.
You may also want to get your quotes correct and attributed to the right person.
Midnight read a little more carefully next time, I used a question mark at the end because i wasn't too sure who said it or how it went. Sorry Mr Franklin.
And as for the Boston Tea Party, besides any conspiracy stories which make no difference to the point i was trying to get across...
"a group of colonists boarded the ships and destroyed the tea", presumably "against the British government"........ As much as I hate to use Wiki as a source I really shouldn't be bothering anyways.
Spies69
14-06-2010, 08:54 AM
Criminals use fake license plates now, and they will just use fake ones while the rest of us have the iNP.
AND for the people worried about there vehicles getting stolen, get tracker
Can't really see that there is any benefit to this iNP system. (Well at least not for the general public)
fvdbergh
14-06-2010, 09:19 AM
I doubt that these plates will be any sort of deterrent for criminal activity. Any person intent on committing a crime simply has to remove the vehicle's number plate, and that's that.
Well, I can think of two ways in which this could improve law enforcement:
1. It will make average-speed enforcement much more solid (assuming RFID readout is more reliable than computer vision number plate recognition), and
2. It will make it more difficult for someone to go speeding on your car's numbers (as mentioned in the original article). I have not actually heard of this happening to anyone I know, but I am sure it must be happening in the wild as we speak.
To all those with privacy concerns: How exactly is this going to be a bigger risk than driving around with your normal number plates? All the kinds of privacy invasions that you fear are equally possible with a time-stamped photo of your car .... unless you are driving around with fake plates already, just in case someone tries to track your movements.
MidnightWizard
14-06-2010, 10:42 AM
Midnight read a little more carefully next time, I used a question mark at the end because i wasn't too sure who said it or how it went. Sorry Mr Franklin.
And as for the Boston Tea Party, besides any conspiracy stories which make no difference to the point i was trying to get across...
"a group of colonists boarded the ships and destroyed the tea", presumably "against the British government"........ As much as I hate to use Wiki as a source I really shouldn't be bothering anyways.
Apologies
NO Taxation without Representation -- the moving force and philosophy behind the "Tea-Party" and later the Revolution.
Something South Africans need to think about.
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." -- Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania (1759) (http://freedomkeys.com/vigil.htm)
unskinnybob
14-06-2010, 12:31 PM
Just rip the number plate of a guvamund vehicle and keep it in your glove box. Remember to remove your car's plate chip - that is to say if your license plate hasn't been stolen yet.
Anthro
14-06-2010, 01:15 PM
eNatis anyone ? This is going to be a nice test for the hackers.. once again
UnUnOctium
14-06-2010, 01:44 PM
Should your "rfid" tag not work, they'll base it on photos of the number plate... so you'll pay anyway.
Yes, but if you read the white paper for the proposed 'automatic tolling systems', they won't be using cameras (cannot photo 5 lanes of EVERY car passing by at 120 km/h and ask people to identify, they also cannot use optical recognition since the success rate will be horrifically low at 120 km/h) and will base it on rfid tag only. Have a little 'device' there as I mentioned with an on/off toggle in the dashboard should the fuzz stop you :)
MoHaG
15-06-2010, 12:34 AM
To all those with privacy concerns: How exactly is this going to be a bigger risk than driving around with your normal number plates? All the kinds of privacy invasions that you fear are equally possible with a time-stamped photo of your car .... unless you are driving around with fake plates already, just in case someone tries to track your movements.
That is true as well... The only real difference is that the RFID is likely to be more reliable and easier searchable (due to the increase reliability).
And everyone who mentions removing plates: Remober that the new bolted on mountings would be compulsary... And the AARTO penalty for driving without plates involves arrest and a court case... (Just taking people to the police station (and having their car impounded until it is fixed) to fine them would have worked perfectly as well... In many cases, time wasted is more valuable than the fine...)
I presume having a number plate not within the new specs would be an offence and it would be easily checkable at roadblocks (which still leaves: What happens if you / someone else break your RFID tag? Do they arrest you? (Which would make breaking someone's tag the perfect revenge plan..)). Since the manufacturers of all the new number plates need to register each plate, finding fake plates are quite easy...
tjunyat
15-06-2010, 04:35 AM
Does it mention anywhere who is paying for these new plates?
Having moved up from CT in the last 2 years, I had to buy my own GP plates at a cost of roughly R1500.00.
Now, I technically don't have to get new plates unless the ones I currently have either A) get stolen or B) I buy a new car.
So is guavamunt going to force me to get new plates with the updated RFID tag inside?
There is no way in hell I'm paying for that again.
Just my R0.02
A view on the same(ish) system used in Texas.
http://www.rfid1984.com/tollway.html
Rouxenator
17-06-2010, 08:22 AM
Number plates are fake and/or gay (thanks RWJ).
Cars should be manufactured with a built in RFID tags as part of chassis, engine and all other vital components. The ID will never be changed or removed and when the car is written off so is the ID.
davemc
17-06-2010, 10:02 AM
Just rip the number plate of a guvamund vehicle and keep it in your glove box. Remember to remove your car's plate chip - that is to say if your license plate hasn't been stolen yet.Shhhh!
davemc
17-06-2010, 10:05 AM
Number plates are fake and/or gay (thanks RWJ).
Cars should be manufactured with a built in RFID tags as part of chassis, engine and all other vital components. The ID will never be changed or removed and when the car is written off so is the ID.The ONLY reason that this has not been implemented is because the Motor industry players are waiting for government to try to force them to implement such a system.
Once they are being forced into doing something, negotiations can flourish, the result of the negotiations angled towards the increase in profit margins for the motor industry players.
trinityEon
17-06-2010, 10:31 AM
That is true as well... The only real difference is that the RFID is likely to be more reliable and easier searchable (due to the increase reliability).
And everyone who mentions removing plates: Remober that the new bolted on mountings would be compulsary... And the AARTO penalty for driving without plates involves arrest and a court case... (Just taking people to the police station (and having their car impounded until it is fixed) to fine them would have worked perfectly as well... In many cases, time wasted is more valuable than the fine...)
I presume having a number plate not within the new specs would be an offence and it would be easily checkable at roadblocks (which still leaves: What happens if you / someone else break your RFID tag? Do they arrest you? (Which would make breaking someone's tag the perfect revenge plan..)). Since the manufacturers of all the new number plates need to register each plate, finding fake plates are quite easy...
Simple solution:
A cordless drill with a good bit can pop out 4 pop rivets in 1 minute, then fake rivet heads can be stuck on even with prestik, to give the impression it is riveted, but behind Velcro does all the sticking, and Ola, all you have to do is find a car that looks like yours, knock off his plates, and he gets all your bills :), they can photograph all they want, the plates are not yours... just keep your sun visor down and they will never be able to see the driver's face
eNatis anyone ? This is going to be a nice test for the hackers.. once again -----------> Mee :D
i wanna see what happens everytime a hacker goes past and jamms the receivers wirelessly. out of the 5 cars that were around me who are they going to find?
Skerminkel
24-06-2010, 12:13 AM
what happens to people with foreign number plates? Like lesotho or namibia?
Uuuhm, and Mpumalanga, Free State, etc., seeing that the article is about Gauteng?
greg_SA
24-06-2010, 09:01 AM
Actually, the real issue here is the invasion of privacy. Now the government wants to keep a digital record of every citizen's movements? It aint going to happen without a fight!
Well, technically the invasion of privacy could already be done using cameras and a normal number plate. For example, a mall could "scan" all vehicle number plates entering an exiting a mall with a camera and do character recognition, etc. In this example, the RFID tag just replace the need for the camera and image recognition system.