If ADSL Is Taken - We Have a Class Action Suit?

A Note to lawyers on forum - as well as to those wonderfully greedy
lawyers from the US, who'd like to be part of a multi-billion rand lawsuit.

Seeing as Telkom, being the corporate power mad whore extension of the
State that it is, is threatening to severely impact on the economic health
of the IT sector of this country - I think plans should begin to be considered
for the mother of all class action law suits.

This pseudo-company, racked up six thousand million rand profit in the last year.

If it decides to arbitrarily 'remove' ADSL, ignoring the ripple effect through the
IT market, and the financial impact on its users - I think a major class action
suit on behalf of every single ADSL user, could be a lovely way to financially
cripple and punish Telkom.

I think a class action suit, on behalf of all ADSL users, demanding x hundred
million rands in compensation and damages from Telkom, could be a
wonderfully fun, financially nightmarish and charming thing for Telkom to
have to deal with.

Think about it..
Lawyers? Smell the money?

These types of cases always land up getting stuck in the legal system for years and invariably turn out with the monopoly winning (can't hurt em). Rest assured Mrs. Steven White conferred with the company lawyers before making that statement, to ensure that it was both ok for him to make that statement, and if necessary follow through with it without major repurcussions.

LoneGunman said:

A Note to lawyers on forum - as well as to those wonderfully greedy
lawyers from the US, who'd like to be part of a multi-billion rand lawsuit.

Seeing as Telkom, being the corporate power mad whore extension of the
State that it is, is threatening to severely impact on the economic health
of the IT sector of this country - I think plans should begin to be considered
for the mother of all class action law suits.

This pseudo-company, racked up six thousand million rand profit in the last year.

If it decides to arbitrarily 'remove' ADSL, ignoring the ripple effect through the
IT market, and the financial impact on its users - I think a major class action
suit on behalf of every single ADSL user, could be a lovely way to financially
cripple and punish Telkom.

I think a class action suit, on behalf of all ADSL users, demanding x hundred
million rands in compensation and damages from Telkom, could be a
wonderfully fun, financially nightmarish and charming thing for Telkom to
have to deal with.

Click to expand...

it won't happen its just posturing
the class action suit lies for the people of South Africa and not just DSL users and the whole thing would be an absolute nightmare as the SA govt would essentially be a defendant

LoneGunman said:

Think about it..
Lawyers? Smell the money?

Click to expand...

sigh

I would imagine with the government as a defendant - there are alot of judges that would like to jab their elbows into the backs of the establishment

buster said:

These types of cases always land up getting stuck in the legal system for years and invariably turn out with the monopoly winning (can't hurt em). Rest assured Mrs. Steven White conferred with the company lawyers before making that statement, to ensure that it was both ok for him to make that statement, and if necessary follow through with it without major repurcussions.

Click to expand...

There is a way to hurt Telkom a bit. And that is to NEVER signup for one of there ADSL accounts.
Support there resellers but NEVER them. That way they(Telkom) will have less and less customers on there books.
The resellers will have more leverage when they control most of the ADSL users.
As we have seen over the last few months the resellers are the ones that have been fighting for us! Not Telkom.

PS: Axxess you have my support! Even if I must downgrade to a 3gb account

LoneGunman said:

If it decides to arbitrarily 'remove' ADSL, ignoring the ripple effect through the
IT market, and the financial impact on its users - I think a major class action
suit on behalf of every single ADSL user, could be a lovely way to financially
cripple and punish Telkom.

Click to expand...

On what basis?

Do you have a contract? Is there something somewhere that says they have to provide ADSL?

Also, South Africa does not have a very good history with Class Action Lawsuits - You need a couple of lawyers wih gigantic iron balls to take on something like this. Almost every Class action type lawsuit is aimed directly at major corporations, but when governments are involved - and thousands of jobs are on the line, then these lawsuits tend to die a rather lengthy death. In the states, going Class Action inherently means that there is sufficient causal evidence to prove to a Jury that damages should be paid. Oh, one other thing about class action - companies cannot sue corporations in Class Action lawsuits - it has to be brought by the people for the people - and that's where it can get really messy.

Telkom, if sued in a Class Action will simply just drag their heals - and honestly - even if Telkom sledges day and night both with money and time, the rest of us cannot afford to keep a crew of lawyers (the expensive ones) doing the same. It's sort of like trying to sue the government for failing to keep its citizens safe from crime. There's a case, but not many who can afford to stay involved for as long as it takes. In the Telkom issue though: nowhere does it state that they have to provide ADSL - heck, they don't need to offer Internet Connectivity at all - the Telecoms Act outlines a need for Telephones - and even just plain phonelines are still <b>not</b> considered a basic need in South Africa.

Karnaugh are you a negative person? you seem to only be able to post negative, unoptimistic comments.

Furthermore - do you have shares in telkom? based on your posts you sound like you do.

Karnaugh's views may be against the grain but he isn't wrong. Telkom are under no obligation to provide broadband. As a private company they are within their rights to discontinue any of their products.

I'm as angry with Telkom as everyone else but we need to form an objective view by examining the facts from all angles.

im in, i have the perfect zoot suit for it and everything

Perdition said:

Karnaugh's views may be against the grain but he isn't wrong. Telkom are under no obligation to provide broadband. As a private company they are within their rights to discontinue any of their products.

I'm as angry with Telkom as everyone else but we need to form an objective view by examining the facts from all angles.

Click to expand...

I agree. That said, I doubt that Telkom will remove ADSL. It would still remain profitable for them (which I think many people forget), they have already invested in infrastructure, and removing it would only provide more strength to the argument for competition.

Not necessarily. Telkom have previously removed products to prove a point (in 2001 they abandoned roll-out of V-Sat for schools: The then service provider (SourceCom Technologies) were basically forced to completely restructure) - and their bottom line was hardly affected then. They abandoned this rollout even though they already had 6000 schools signed up and around 1200 schools were already given the infrastructure. The reason? The government told Telkom to make the tech available cheaply to the schools. So Telkom just canned it - saying they couldn't do it.

We have to be critical about these things. as much as we adsl users know telkoms lack of quality of service. We cant do anything yet. How many people in S>A and how many people have adsl??
Its not a fair fight. if we had a majority, The ICASA can nail the bastards without a shadow of a doubt!

kingmonty said:

Not necessarily. Telkom have previously removed products to prove a point (in 2001 they abandoned roll-out of V-Sat for schools: The then service provider (SourceCom Technologies) were basically forced to completely restructure) - and their bottom line was hardly affected then. They abandoned this rollout even though they already had 6000 schools signed up and around 1200 schools were already given the infrastructure. The reason? The government told Telkom to make the tech available cheaply to the schools. So Telkom just canned it - saying they couldn't do it.

Click to expand...

Wow, I never knew about that. Somehow they seem even more heartless and evil all of a sudden. Thanks for the info .

I'm not suggesting class actions or lawsuits from the point of view of 'they
should supply internet to us' - I'm referring to the potential financial impact
of arbitrary decisions made by a company, which have a direct financial
impact on both individual consumers, (who rely on ADSL for business
purposes) as well as Companies (using ADSL) as well as Resellers of
bandwidth - who rely on the existence of ADSL users, for their livelihood.

Surely any action which can negatively impact the economic status quo of
South Africa, or even retard the economy - is very much within the province
of current Statutes relating to Terrorism - except that instead of a bomb
being exploded, its the withdrawal (or threatened withdrawal) of a Service
that is fairly integral to the continued good working and financial security of
this country.

There are many ways to skin a cat. To me, I think Telkom are legally liable
under current Security and Terrorism laws, for their threats and willingness to
damage the financial stability of multiple citizens and Companies, who rely on
the service provided by Telkom.

It's not 'just a service' - which can be withdrawn, or threatened to be
withdrawn, at the whims of Telkom whores - as no one else is legally
allowed to provide said Service, which is integral to the good working of
this economic society.

Therefore, a class action suit, using this approach - and treating Telkom's
actions as provable economic Terrorism.
TERRORISM: NOUN:
"The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry?id=t0122600

I would suggest, that a Company, knowing full well that a large number of
citizens and firms are using their service for business purposes (and said
Company is enjoying the monopoly of no competition whatsoever) - choosing
to threaten in public to remove their essential Service, because of rulings
and findings by an official State appointed Regulator - is in effect, a
'threatened use of force' 'with the intention of intimidating or coercing
societies or governments' - therefore it is Economic Terrorism.

(An anology could be made that it is like a water purification plant, supplying
diseased and overpriced water, being ordered to clean its product - and
lower its prices. Instead of obeying the State's requirements - chooses
instead to threaten to withdraw all water supplies, rather than comply with
medical, ethical, and hygiene standards.)

It's an Essential Service - any form of Communication Service which aids the
Economy, and has no competitor - is an Essential Service, and therefore any
threat to it - is Terrorism.

Lawyers?

So techinically telkom is a terrorist?

yip, to my understanding of how this Economy works:
the Communications Systems are a vital national economic resource,
because there are no alternative Providers - so once Business (or a
significant portion of this country's economic health) is reliant
on these provided Systems - any threats to them, are Terrorism,
and should be treated as such, in a court of Law.

Telkom I think are extremely vulnerable on this point.

They are not 'just a Company offering a Service' - they
directly support the economic health of this nation -
so any threat by them to damage said economic health,
is legally actionable, I believe.

Also, lets not forget that IF they get away with this threat, what is next? A threat that they will withdraw Diginet unless they can increase prices 100% "because of new costs" they will not disclose? Remove all pay phones unless they can charge R20 a minute "because of undisclosed costs"?

Lonegunman, I think you may be onto something here. We really need to start thinking 'out of the box'. ICASA and the hearings were one thing but we need to apply as much pressure as possible, and quickly, so as not to loose any momentum we may have gained.

Class action lawsuits are very complicated by nature and terribly expensive. This is why they are so successful in USA - because they have large punitive damages - or rewards for the money invested by the lawyers.

Launching class action suits in New York, against a company operating solely in SA, and who is partly owned by the Government of that country makes it even more difficult. It would make great headlines, and a threat of this type of thing might make MBEKI rethink their silent and hands off approach.

Why not try and take Telkom to task in SA courts? The media coverage and exposure would surely be just a big - we just need some very dedicated, intelligent and wealthy lawyers to donate their time. We just need to find the grounds for getting them into court in SA..........

im with lonegunman on this, to threaten the very economic wellbeing of a country in my opinion constitutes terrorism, whether it be violence or whatever other means. and yeah i don't think we should lose the momentum on this, cos who knows how long it will be until we get another chance. whether or not you act ot on a threat still makes you a terrorist. if you threatened to detonate a bomb on the world trade centre, that still makes you a terrorist whether or not you actually detonate it.