Line rental is a must..

This has been one of my biggest issues with the complaint filed with ICASA originally.

In the US you pay a line rental, it is just bundled in the ISP fees. ISP's have to pay to access the ATM network of the ILEC or CLEC, then they pay a monthly port fee to them for each subscriber they have along with a setup fee.. In the BellSouth area it is roughly this..

Monthly
DS1 to ILEC/CLEC ATM $500-1000
DS3 to ILEC/CLEC ATM $1500-4000
Port Fee to ILEC/CLEC $30-45

Once off
Setup Fee to ILEC/CLEC $100

Then the subscriber must pay a federal infrastructure fee that is placed in a shared fund for all ILEC and CLEC infrastructure build out. This is about $6 for residential lines.

Once all this is calculated in, then you have to add the cost of bandwidth that is used per client.

Then you decide you want another ISP, you have to deactivate your ADSL service and wait for the other provider to activate it. You could have a few days or weeks to wait on this. The ILEC/CLEC can't activate any new ISP on the line until the previous is removed..

So having the telco charge this has its benefit.. The major change would be when the SNO comes in. Not all ISP's will offer both services from Telkom and the SNO. So changing your ISP could be a headache.

To remove this is like buying a car and expecting to never change the tyres or oil. You just add fuel and go isn't an option on a car or with ADSL/broadband.. If you think telkom is slow now, take away their maintenance fee of the equipment. A DSLAM fails and you have to wait until a new one is shipped from overseas because they don't keep any spares available.. Or the only DSLAM tech in the area is 300km away since they couldn't afford to have additional staff..

David

Or the only DSLAM tech in the area is 300km away since they couldn't afford to have additional staff..

Click to expand...

R6billion cant afford them a few techies?...

"Line rental" is an ambiguous term when it is applied to Telkomonopoly's ADSL, and that's exactly what Telkomonopoly wants - ambiguity and confusion.

Let's be clear, currently Telkomonopoly's ADSL is a combination of:

1. Analogue Line Rental - for an ordinary landline
   i.e. the 2 copper wires that run between home/office and the exchange. Currently R87.05 per month, but Telkomonopoly is trying to increase this to ~R93 per month for everyone that has a landline, AFAIK effective 2005-09-01.
   .
2. ADSL ISP Account
   This is basically for bandwidth, and a cost that varies bcos several ISPs, including Telkomonopoly itself, can sell bandwidth...a typical 3GB ADSL ISP bandwidth account from Telkomonopoly is R250, and this is going to change in November [2005], however small business and ordinary people often need a lot more than 3GB per month, as stated by ICASA in their ADSL Findings Document.
   .
3. ADSL Connectivity Rental
   For those that don't know, the very same copper cabling is used for analogue and ADSL - there are no separate wires or cables between home/office and exchange.
   
   Now this is where the biggest problem with Telkomonopoly's ADSL is - every ADSL customer is being charged twice for the same 2 pieces of copper...
   
   Furthermore, Telkomonopoly have been trying to disguise this as a charge for different speed options...first there was 512kbits/s, then a step backwards to 384kbits/s, then a further step backwards to 192kbits/s...in the rest of the world broadband telecoms companies increase the speed of their services, in SA Telkomonopoly offers lower speed services and tries to call them "broadband", in the hopes that the ignorant consumers will not know the difference...
   
   As of 2005-08-01 the prices are slightly lower than they were previously, HomeDSL192: R270/month; HomeDSL384: R359/month; HomeDSL512 and BusinessDSL512 R477/month. Bear in mind that those prices do not include either of the other 2 separate charges, which still have to be factored in to get the final cost of being able to use Telkomonopoly's ADSL...
   
   Then there is the R404 ADSL Installation charge, which is about the right price [accounting for exchange rates and cheaper rates bcos Telkomonopoly buy at bulk discount rates] for the ADSL port card at the exchange [called a DSLAM port card].

So, if you aren't familiar with all this, you will no doubt be sitting there reading all this, and you will be confused as to exactly how much Telkomonopoly's ADSL will eat into your budget each month...that's exactly what Telkomonopoly wants - confusion, bcos until that first ADSL bill arrives, you will think it is actually affordable...

What makes more sense for consumers, is if there are only two charges: the monthly analogue line rental - charged by Telkomonopoly; and the ADSL ISP account - charged by whichever ISP you are using every month. This would then do away with the double ADSL "line" rental, i.e. [1] and [3] above - where [3] is a blatant ripoff from Telkomonopoly...

From 2005-11-01, Telkomonopoly wants to increase the charges for [2] above, but not just slightly - no, Telkomonopoly wants to drastically increase the ISP supplied bandwidth...

I think that a decent line rental is fair. But none of this +- R500 (line rental, ISP account, Telkom ADSL access fee) for a couple of gigs nonsense! Why can't they just charge R100 per month ADSL line rental? 100 000 * 100 = 10 000 000 a month. And their subscriber base would explode. Then you would get something like 500 000 * 100 = 50 000 000 a month! and that would be minus the telephone line rental too...So they would still make $$ off that.

What Telkom is doing is filling up their coffers by capitalising on ADSL, and when the SNO offers decent competition Telkom will most likely scrap the line rental and slash ISP prices to give the SNO a punch in the stomach.

Line rental is not necessary - Telkom just wants a rapid ROI.

MaD said:

What Telkom is doing is filling up their coffers by capitalising on ADSL, and when the SNO offers decent competition Telkom will most likely scrap the line rental and slash ISP prices to give the SNO a punch in the stomach.

Line rental is not necessary - Telkom just wants a rapid ROI.

Click to expand...

And worse still, they probably won't lose many clients as theirs will be the cheapest service! Of course, you must then expect them to change ALL contracts to 2 years, with price going up to current levels after 12 months of the announcement ...

Bastards.

I still maintain that ADSL connectivity rental is and should remain a chargeable item. ADSL over the same copper as an analogue service is still and ADDITIONAL service. Additional service = additional charge, in my view... There is still the cost of connecting that DSLAM to the ATM network, powering the DSLAM, the running of BRAS servers, routers, transparent caches, and as paarlberg indicated, the cost of keeping spares etc...

It is, however, at the moment, ridiculously overpriced.

Whether the line rental gets hidden inside an ISP fee, or charged for by Telkom is irrelevant. I'd prefer that it remains on my Telkom bill, so that I can choose my ISP easily - but the pricing must definately come into line with the international $30-$40 port charge, for the speed of services being offered there. The current 192K service pricing is around what we should be paying for the 512K service.

Being forced to also subscribe to Telkom's analog voice service, regardless of whether it's being used or not, should be adressed by ICASA. This is in my view an "additional" charge, which is forced upon the consumer. Analog voice should be optional.

The real cost of doing business in South Africa is the pricing of Diginet, ATM access, and international bandwidth. The sooner these get regulated out of Telkom's paws, and opened up, the more we'll see creative ISP's such as the Axxess'es and Webafrica's of the country being able to provide good service on Telkoms DSL network.

The moment local telephone charges get dropped, is when our economy will receive a boost. The moment cellular company interconnects get driven by competition rather than fatcat regulation, is when we'll see a connected country.

At the end of the day, ADSL can be a great consumer service. But there are many other communications costs in South Africa that raises the cost of doing business, and hence the cost of everything. I'd rather see those problems adressed than bicker over ADSL line rental.

Other than that, every other finding in the ICASA report should be implemented, or adhered to.

In the US you are charged double as well. Don't fool yourself, the copper cables are not the issue.. DSLAM and spares plus the backhaul infrastructure cost the money. You may be looking at 50km of fibre to take your DSLAM connectivity to a location that is on the primary ATM network for ADSL. That is not needed for analogue phone service, but is required for ADSL and Diginet services.

You may also have redundant routes to multiple locations to provide redundancy, several hundred km of fibre and install is not cheap. It has to be paid for.

yes we should pay telkom for the line rentals, but not that much!

bekdik said:

And worse still, they probably won't lose many clients as theirs will be the cheapest service! Of course, you must then expect them to change ALL contracts to 2 years, with price going up to current levels after 12 months of the announcement ...

Bastards.

Click to expand...

They will lose quite a few customers - those who consider themselves principled, and are certainly prepared to pay a few rands more based on just that, like me...

Specifically ICASA's ADSL Findings Document & ADSL Access/Connectivity Rental...

If there is one thing we should all agree 100% on, it's that Telkomonopoly have been drastically/hugely overcharging for ADSL...does everyone agree?
[don't both to answer if you work for Telkomonopoly ]

Ok, so here's the thing, existing ADSL customers have basically been abused by all of Telkomonopoly's overcharging, and despite this, Telkomonopoly did not pour all the extra money into rolling out ADSL to more customers, instead that money vanished into Telkomonopoly's vast and dare I say obscene profits [considering that communications is an essential service if the economy is to grow at all].

So, let's say that Telkomonopoly manage to influence ICASA's ADSL Regulations - to the effect that there is still a separate monthly ADSL Access/Connectivity Rental, which pays for electrification & what not of the infrastructure that makes ADSL work, and let's assume for a moment that the fee is actually reasonable & in line with actual costs incurred...then what happens about all the profits that Telkomonopoly has already gained from existing ADSL customers - should Telkomonopoly not be forced to run at break-even until a critical mass of ADSL subscribers has been attained...?

IMO the solution is to continue along the path that ICASA has announced, i.e. to allow for a 1st month ADSL Access/Connectivity charge and none thereafter, and Telkomonopoly can subsidise its running costs for ADSL from the ISP bandwidth portion, but make sure there is a price cap on wholesale bandwidth prices that ISPs pay, and then let the different ISPs battle it out amongst themselves for customers, i.e. let market forces prevail...

If I were ICASA, I would take it a step further, and prevent Telkomonopoly from being both the supplier of bandwidth, as well as an ISP supplying bandwidth to other ISPs - that's where I would split Telkomonopoly into at least 2 separate & opposing parts - supplier of wholesale bandwidth [SAT3/SAFE & national fibre backbone], as well as a separate Telkom that deals with telephony and possibly a reseller of bandwidth, hosting services etc...

The line rental seem so important to tellkom that when installing my ADSL they felt the need to install another line at my house, without my permission, so i would have to pay 2X rental. Now i have another line about 4cm away from the existing line! Trying to get this issue fixed is another pain, as if i cancel the new line my ADSL stops as well

Infrastructure has to be paid for somehow - yes, but here in the US they would rather get more clients (quantity), than charge people out the wazoo. Also @ paarlberg, not sure where you get your prices from, but a buddy of mine just got DSL through SBC - they tacked it onto his existing phone line (currently paying $25 a month all fees and taxes included) and he is only paying $15 more a month - which is his ISP fee to yahoo - not sure how the line rental can be included in that, unless yahoo is re-imbursing them somehow. Sign a year contract, get a free modem with router and wireless, and free installation - all done within 2 days. That price is cheaper than dial-up from AOL @ $21.95.

Surely the same copper pair that carries my voice communication requires the same maintanence regardless whether it carries voice or data? I understand the initial setup costs for the dslam's but if that R90 odd can maintain a copper pair what's changed now that it is carrying my adsl data? Why all of a sudden does it require ANOTHER rental for the same physical pair? This is what grates me! Now i presume there will be some maintenence required for the DSLAM's and i presume ppl understand but i HIGHLY doubt it comes anywhere close to the current rip off "line rental" we are being charged. Surely the correct way to handle that is to incorporate it into the resold bandwidth as that is the medium requiring the maintenence! AFAIK this is how it is handled in most countries around the world at present. IE: Copper pair line rental is paid to Telkom. Adsl exchange mainenence is paid by ressellers and bundled with bandwidth and subsequently charged to the end user. My question is......what does it cost to maintain an adsl exchange? I presume it is pretty negligble based on international pricing trends.....

Line rental is is simply telkom's own special way of spreading FUD - they advertise Rxxx for adsl when the TCO is Rxxxxxxxx - they sow confusion by saying 'our adsl costs Rxxx' failing to quote the TCO. Yes maintenance costs - but in other countries all of this confusion is eliminated - the costs are built into the monthly rental - you pay say £20 for adsl - that's it - the background costs are 'invisible' to the consumer.- and further to that more often than not there is no 'per gig' billing to confuse the issue even more - you rent you adsl line for xx a month and do whatever you please with it - no nasty surprises.

That's what's broadband is about isn't it - cheap, simple, fast always on access.

ic, it would be even worse if Telkom recovered the ADSL infrastructure costs via sales on bandwidth. This would mean that bandwidth simply becomes even MORE expensive than it currently is, plus, it allows Telkom to cross-subsidize ADSL infrastructure with bandwidth, which is by law, not allowed for good reason.

I'd rather pay a controlled fixed cost for the line, than some hidden charge somewhere inside my gigabytes, or inside my ISP fee.

Bobb said:

Surely the same copper pair that carries my voice communication requires the same maintanence regardless whether it carries voice or data? I understand the initial setup costs for the dslam's but if that R90 odd can maintain a copper pair what's changed now that it is carrying my adsl data? Why all of a sudden does it require ANOTHER rental for the same physical pair? This is what grates me! Now i presume there will be some maintenence required for the DSLAM's and i presume ppl understand but i HIGHLY doubt it comes anywhere close to the current rip off "line rental" we are being charged. Surely the correct way to handle that is to incorporate it into the resold bandwidth as that is the medium requiring the maintenence! AFAIK this is how it is handled in most countries around the world at present. IE: Copper pair line rental is paid to Telkom. Adsl exchange mainenence is paid by ressellers and bundled with bandwidth and subsequently charged to the end user. My question is......what does it cost to maintain an adsl exchange? I presume it is pretty negligble based on international pricing trends.....

Click to expand...

Yeah, methinks you've hit the nail on the head there Bobb, R92+, every month should IMO be enough to pay for the electricity that runs through the DSLAM port card your line is connected to, and it should be enough to pay for copper line maintenance as well - not forgetting that if ICASA's proposed 1st month & none thereafter system, Telkomonopoly will still be getting an additional huge upfront amount:

ic's calculations of what ADSL costs in the 1st month said:

All prices exclude VAT i.e. what Telkomonopoly has after VAT paid to SARS​	ADSL Installation​	1st Month ADSL Access Charge​	Subtotal: Huge Additional Upfront Amount​	Monthly Analogue Line Rental (prior to increase)​	Subtotal​	"3GB Shaped TIpA Advanced"​	Subtotal​	VAT @14%​	TOTAL (1st month bill)​
HomeDSL192​	R354.39​	R236.84​	R591.23​	R76.36​	R667.59​	R218.42​	R886.01​	R124.04​	ZAR1010.05​
HomeDSL384​	R354.39​	R314.92​	R669.31​	R76.36​	R745.67​	R218.42​	R964.09​	R134.97​	ZAR1099.06​
HomeDSL512​	R354.39​	R418.42​	R772.81​	R76.36​	R849.17​	R218.42​	R1067.59​	R149.46​	ZAR1217.05​
BusinessDSL512​	R354.39​	R418.42​	R772.81​	R101.45​	R874.26​	R218.42​	R1092.68​	R152.97​	ZAR1245.65​
Prices Screen Capture:	Source​	Source​	N/A​	Source​	N/A​	Source​	N/A​	N/A​	N/A​

Click to expand...

@TheRoDent, comments on above?

paarlberg: go hate somewhere else.

I find it really sad that some people try to justify telkom's actions.

Let us not fool ourselves telkom is raping and ravaging this country without remorse.

Saying that in the US (or any other country) you are also charged double is a lame excuse: "Oh look over there they are also raping their citizens, that must mean it is ok for Telkom to rape South Africans"

Even if it was true that in the US they charge double (something I am not convinced of), telecommunications are still affordable and prices are MUCH lower than they are here in South Africa.

There are numerous counter examples to this so-called ADSL line rental. In many European countries you just pay a flat monthly rental for the line with or without ADSL because it is STILL 2 copper wires, with or without ADSL.

A specific example is France, where you pay France Telecom about 15 Euros per month for the line rental. If, in addition you want to have ADSL, you just need to contact the ISP of your choice and pay THEM a monthly rental for the ADSL service, which is about another 15 Euros per month (depending on the ISP and the service you require). But France Telecom DOES NOT charge you additional ammounts for the ADSL service, you still only pay 15 Euros for the line, with or without ADSL.

So, for example in Paris, you would pay about 30 Euros per month for both the telephone and the ADSL service included, which is about 240 Rand.

In addition, the ADSL service is not a crappy 512k connection, you can easily get speeds anywhere from 2 MegaBytes (i.e. 2048k) to 20 MegaBytes. YES, TWENTY MEGABYTES!!! i.e. 20480k = 40 times faster than telkom's fastest connection (512k). Furthermore, these services are NOT shaped and are NOT capped.

In some cases, if you you rent both services (telephone and ADSL) from the same company, some companies offer you special packages like UNLIMITED local phone calls included.

If after comparing these services and the prices you pay for them you still want to go ahead and justify Telkom's actions, then I can only say I am sorry for you.

TheRoDent said:

ic, it would be even worse if Telkom recovered the ADSL infrastructure costs via sales on bandwidth. This would mean that bandwidth simply becomes even MORE expensive than it currently is, plus, it allows Telkom to cross-subsidize ADSL infrastructure with bandwidth, which is by law, not allowed for good reason.

I'd rather pay a controlled fixed cost for the line, than some hidden charge somewhere inside my gigabytes, or inside my ISP fee.

Click to expand...

Fair enough. What do you reckon would be a fair cost for adsl infrastructure maintenance? Remember this is over and above the Line rental which covers the copper maintenance so this would strictly be for the DSLAM maintenance and electricity.