UCT urged to scrap race criteria

Nom Chompsky

Nom Chompsky

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The fact that UCT - which is generally regarded as the best tertiary institution in Africa - has the lowest pass rate in medicine clearly indicates that this policy isn't working :erm:

A university of Cape Town academic and struggle veteran wants the university to scrap its medical students admission policy, saying it discriminates against white, Indian and coloured pupils.

Dr Neville Alexander, a director of a research unit at the university, says vice-chancellor Dr Max Price's race-based admissions policy is "silly" and "quite ridiculous". Deans of medical faculties at other universities said this week the policy was discriminatory.

To stand a realistic chance to study for the MBChB degree at Cape Town, white pupils must get at least 90% in five matric subjects, 80% in the sixth and 80% in a national benchmark test that measures students' proficiency in academic literacy and maths.

Indian pupils need at least 90% in four subjects, 80% in two subjects and 80% in the benchmark test. Coloured pupils need 80% in four subjects, 70% in two and at least 53% in the benchmark test to be considered for "probable admission".

African pupils, on the other hand, who get 70%-79% in six subjects and at least 50% in the benchmark test stand a good chance of securing a place.

In its 2011 prospectus, UCT says it recognises the danger of perpetuating the use of race as an admission criterion, but it invites applicants to identify themselves as black African, Indian, coloured, Chinese or white.

Most other medical faculties use race quotas, but none stipulates openly that pupils of one race must score higher matric marks than those of another.

Whites wanting to study medicine in South Africa appear to be the most prejudiced. They are not eligible for Stellenbosch University's extended seven-year degree programme. The University of KwaZulu-Natal's Nelson R Mandela School of Medicine allocated four places out of 210 to whites for 2011.

The Sunday Times established that seven universities offering medicine can accept only 1350 students next year. Cape Town will offer 200 places (80 white and Indian, 80 African and 40 coloured); Stellenbosch 220; Free State 120; Pretoria 220 (121 allocated to African pupils); Limpopo 200; KwaZulu-Natal 210 (145 African, 40 Indian, 19 coloured, four white and two others); and Witwatersrand 180. Walter Sisulu University failed to provide figures for its medical faculty.

Cape Town's first-year pass rate last year was the lowest of the universities supplying figures - only 157 of the 199 students who wrote the exam passed.

Price insisted race was a "valid" criterion, saying: "Using a race-based policy is second-best and it is a proxy for disadvantage most of the time. Our experience shows that a black student coming from a township school who manages to get 65% or 70% in matric has overcome incredible odds.

"We know that if they had been in a good school, they would have got 90% therefore we don't want to penalise them because of the accident of the circumstances they were born into."

Price said whites and Indians would fill 150 of the 200 places if race was not used in selection. "We get (criticism) mostly from white students who were in the same school as black students where the black student gets in with lower marks and the white student doesn't. That's very hard for people to accept and to understand, but the reason is that the competition for white places is much greater," said Price.

Alexander said the admission points score should be the same for all pupils. "I don't believe in this nonsense of race. It's silly . absolutely unnecessary, nonsense basically. We need to find a better alternative .

"I think government should make it very clear to those students who don't get in, both white and black students, that the reason is affirmative action, but that the affirmative action is based on a very reasonable certainty that the students chosen will, in fact, succeed," said Alexander, who is director of the Project for the Study of Alternative Education in South Africa.

Commenting on Cape Town's admission criteria, Professor Willem Sturm, dean of the Nelson R Mandela School of Medicine, said: "By setting it higher, you are actually discriminating. I would never put that into our policy."

His university earmarked 145 places for African students, but on average they filled only 110 places.

"We have to find enough African students, but for years we haven't been able to do that. So the places we can't fill with African students, we fill with white and Indian students," he said.
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Source: The Times
 
Shame this is what he "struggled" for.......

Nothing will change. Oh and I thought white and Indian South Africans are 'Africans' :erm:
 
After reading this would you want a black doctor, knowing he could be second rate and only there due to tokenism.
 
Wat hierdie artikel nie sê nie is dat die wittes nie eers meer probeer om direk in medies in te kom nie, hulle doen 'n BSC graad en na die eerste semester val die meerderheid swart studente uit omdat hulle nie die nodige vaardighede het nie weens die swak standaarde wat van hulle verwag word om in te kom (Die Universiteit glimlag breed omdat hulle nogsteeds moet betaal en nie hulle standaarde maklik gaan laat val nie), daarna kom die wittes net deur die BSC kanaal. Ek sal graag die kleur wil weet van die wie wel die mediese graad klaar gemaak het.
 
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Shayd said:
After reading this would you want a black doctor, knowing he could be second rate and only there due to tokenism.
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Die kurses se standaarde sal nie sommer verswak nie, net die toelatingsvereistes.
 
So basically if your doctor has a UCT degree on his wall and is black, get the hell out of there.
 
This policy does absolutely no justice to the black medical students who would have gotten into UCT to study medicine on merit.
 
They better get rid of it, its disgusting that the best university in Africa gets students by quotas based on skin coulour
 
It's a lose-lose situation for UCT. Someone is going to call them racist one way or another. They're just being honoust by putting up the realistic criteria based on what is being forced on them by national government.

Because of the quota system, instead of all positions going to the best possible medical students, the students have to compete for a limited number of spots based on their race. White students, who for reasons we can debate until ragnarok, have more academic higher achievers than black students, but are competing for less spots, and consequently the competition is extremely high, therefore requiring higher marks to even stand a chance.

The statement made by UCT is just being realistic by essentially saying, "if you want to stand a chance you have to have marks in this range, and even then that just gives you a chance...it doesn't guarantee anything because unfortunately we have been forced into a situation where the quality of the student is not the only criteria for admission."

If this is going to be fixed, we need a national movement away from race criteria. You can't just go after one group of people who are just doing what they have been told to do.
 
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Shayd said:
After reading this would you want a black doctor, knowing he could be second rate and only there due to tokenism.
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They still have to pass the same course as the white students. Don't be an idiot. It's just easier for them to get in.
 
hawker said:
They still have to pass the same course as the white students. Don't be an idiot. It's just easier for them to get in.
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Or like the one (the son of some bigshot) Carte Blance had story about working in a hospital that never qualified as he kept on failing...
 
hawker said:
They still have to pass the same course as the white students. Don't be an idiot. It's just easier for them to get in.
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There's a difference between passing something, and being good at it. Their policy is ridiculous -

We know that if they had been in a good school, they would have got 90% therefore we don't want to penalise them because of the accident of the circumstances they were born into."
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Yes, and what about the black students who go to private schools and only get 70%? By his logic, if they went to "underprivileged" schools, they'd have only managed 50%. Yet they still get the same acceptance criteria as people from poorer schools. Surely they are then inadequately prepared for the course? Thus blocking an Indian/White/Chinese student who actually deserves to be there from becoming a doctor.
 
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Why are Indians being treated so harshly on this as well? I've seen the book, indians require 1 percent only less than whites? Didn't Indians also suffer in apartheid? Can't they simply make a thing of it's free first year, or somthing of that sort? And what about White children who say have parants who they've lost early in life, or have neglected them or something of the sort, of course these people are also disadvantaged, won't they matter either -how then is race relevant here?

Good and crucial arguments from both sides. I'm not sure where I stand on this. IMV all children deserve a decent and fulfilling childhood which would enable them to reach their full potential.

Perhas a better solution would be to provide education grants to people who were born pre-1994, thus they could first imrove their skills(and perhaps attain new ones too), then get on their own two feet and attain the full required percentage to get into UCT. And perhaps we should fund the first year and second if they pass, as well. I don't like AA at all, but justice should be surved, and I hope that we have got the balance sheet worked out properly in the exact same respect, else we would only be making even more chaos and injustice in that process.

2c
 
avaratz said:
Yes, and what about the black students who go to private schools and only get 70%? By his logic, if they went to "underprivileged" schools, they'd have only managed 50%. Yet they still get the same acceptance criteria as people from poorer schools. Surely they are then inadequately prepared for the course? Thus blocking an Indian/White/Chinese student who actually deserves to be there from becoming a doctor.
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The black pupils just fall out and the whites who are doing a BSC course get in via that ticket, this situation is not unique to UCT. Afaik many universities also have bridging courses already to help these students get onto par, the problem however is the fact that black pupils don't get the basic fundamentals in their mother tongue and I do take off my hat to those who still make it through the system. Currently this policy is trying to create a car without knowing how the wheel works. UCT is smiling all the way because they are getting state subsidies and money out of the black students via NSFAS.

Ek het geen probleem met bemagtiging, maar dit raak 'n probleem as dit gedoen word ten koste van myself.
 
ponder said:
This has nothing to do with logic...
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And that's the problem. With ALL of the government's quotas and race-based criteria. I have no issue with BEE or quota systems, as long as it benefits those who deserve it! As it stands, what's to stop a black man from America coming to SA, becoming a naturalised citizen, and benefiting from BEE? He will get the same benefits as a poor man who really struggled through life to get an education.

Same goes for this UCT debacle - why do privileged black students get the same benefits as underprivileged ones? That goes against the whole point of it - the systems are in place to uplift those who deserve to be uplifted. As it stands, it goes purely on face value... which anyone can see is unfair.

As for the vice chancellor Dr Max Price, I wish he could just tell it like it truly is, that the systems are in place to appease the government.

A massive overhaul is needed for all BEE type systems.
 
zulgin said:
The black pupils just fall out and the whites who are doing a BSC course get in via that ticket, this situation is not unique to UCT. Afaik many universities also have bridging courses already to help these students get onto par, the problem however is the fact that black pupils don't get the basic fundamentals in their mother tongue and I do take off my hat to those who still make it through the system. Currently this policy is trying to create a car without knowing how the wheel works. UCT is smiling all the way because they are getting state subsidies and money out of the black students via NSFAS.

Ek het geen probleem met bemagtiging, maar dit raak 'n probleem as dit gedoen word ten koste van myself.
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And as a country, we are being deprived of quality black, white, indian and chinese doctors. You make good points, and it seems like everyone is being treated unfairly in one way or another. At the end of the day, we all suffer because of it.
 
avaratz said:
And as a country, we are being deprived of quality black, white, indian and chinese doctors. You make good points, and it seems like everyone is being treated unfairly in one way or another. At the end of the day, we all suffer because of it.
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There is nothing wrong with the doctors that eventually come out UCT or any other accredited University in South Africa, our standards are there to compete with the best in the world, the problem is the ridiculously low admission requirements for blacks , the ridiculously high one for whites and the requirement to pass matric in SA. Our Syllabus doesn't need to stand back for anyone - contrary to the popular believe. It is where we set our standards that matter.

Ons onderwys is van top gehalte, kyk gerus na http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/258460-Doctors-re-attach-man-s-hands om te sien wat ons doktors in staat is om reg te kry :)
 
zulgin said:
There is nothing wrong with the doctors that eventually come out UCT or any other accredited University in South Africa, our standards are there to compete with the best in the world, the problem is the ridiculously low admission requirements for blacks , the ridiculously high one for whites and the requirement to pass matric in SA. Our Syllabus doesn't need to stand back for anyone - contrary to the popular believe. It is where we set our standards that matter.

Ons onderwys is van top gehalte, kyk gerus na http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/258460-Doctors-re-attach-man-s-hands om te sien wat ons doktors in staat is om reg te kry :)
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Hmmm, I can't agree more. The universities criteria to pass the course hasn't changed, and if it does, they may every well lose their accreditation... so the doctors being spat out of UCT or any accredited south african university are the real deal and have earned all right to practice medicine. It's the exact same thing that what's happened in my engineering course... There's been a few guys that didn't perform quite as well as say me and didn't meet the required points, but still got in, however, the course is still just as hard (if not more so?) than 30 years ago... and must still meet international specifications. However when will we see a truly colour blind South Africa?
 
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