No Hope.

[SoulSe]

With the new Telkom ADSL model coming in November, our connectivity in South Africa is now actually moving backwards.

I trialed iBurst, still have a Sentech (spit) connection, have considered ADSL and messed around with 3G and GPRS.

I'm sick and tired of the horse **** we have to swallow in this country. Friends of mine in the States have just bought a darkfibre 7mb/s connection for $50 a month. Paris has just launched a 32mb/s connection and Japan is gearing up to launch the world's first gigabit connection.

Here I sit in South Africa with a crappy 128kbps connection that performs at 64k when I'm lucky. Our infrastructure is managed by a group of corrupt idiots. The government ties everything up in red tape and isn't really doing anything and the SNO looks like it will either be a toothless monster or never freakin' happen.

I love this country, I really do. But my business is IT and I can't do it here. I'm tired of falling behind the rest of the world in terms of content delivery and entertainment. I've had it with stupid excuses from Sentech and blatant corruption from Telkom. It's time something big happened. It's time for marching, protesting and serious public campaigning.

Our countries education and economic futures depend on our connectivity improving. The Internet is a pivotal enabler to so many vital fields.

Would marching help? Would mandates handed to minister's change anything? Would mass consumer action against Telkom be possible? Are South Africans too apathetic and pathetic to effect change? Is it perhaps the consumers attitude that has bred one of the worst service industries in the world here in South Africa?

What are your opinions? Because I'm on the virge of considering immigration... as much as that would kill me.

[ettubrute]

Would mandates handed to minister's change anything?Only if it goes with some greenbacks stapled to the mandate, if I'm reading the situation correctly. Remember, with the ANC's stake in Telkom, quite a few of their salaries are indirectly paid by Telkom! So why bite the hand that feeds you?

[andres101]

i agree, the goverment is dragging it's feet cause the longer it takes to license the SNO, the more money they make. they will even make money out of the SNO!!

it is really unfair that the goverment makes money out of companies that are ripping us off... comflict of interest if you ask me.

[JStrike]

South Africans do generally seem more apathetic than many places, notably the USA. But MyADSL is a remakable step for South Africans all things considered. Now it is just a matter of not only sustaining the momentum achieved here, but increasing our efforts.

Marching is one option, there are others that have been disucussed. But as always, we need to overcome our built in apathy and actually do something. The people at antitrust.co.za are a good example of the energy needed. If everybody that sat here bitching about telkom actually joined up with antitrust, something might well be done, and soon. If you dont like antitrust's politics. then some other constructive and usefull avenue should be created

[JStrike]

The government does seem to be doing it's best to get commuication prices lower. Allbeit that this in context of it being a government and having to deal with all the bureaucracy and red-tape that is inherent in such things.

My concern is that people are not going to reward the SNO for having lower prices, just as we didn't reward CellC when they came out with slighly lower prices. If millions of people left Voda and MTN to go to CellC because of slightly lower prices, Voda and MTN would have lowered their prices, etc. See where I'm getting at. So what we have at the moment is the company that has the lowest prices and always did sitting with a paltry 2 million users, justifying Voda and MTN's reasoning that people dont care that much about price.

When the SNO comes out, even if their prices are slightly lower, everyone must reward them for it, to show that price does matter.

Unfortunatly I don't see that happening

[ettubrute]

CellC will only start having joy of lower prices once you can take your number with you from another network. It's too much trouble to change the number. Remember the cost of business cards, phoning ppl to inform them of the new number, breakdown in comms due to the one person you forgot to inform, etc. Was just too expensive to move to CellC! And there was, apart from the slightly lower price, no extra benefits. Thus, what we need, is the SNO coming in at low pricing, to enable them to steal a big market share...

[JStrike]

Yes, that made it harder, but nevertheless people didn't put in the effort to reward them. (And by effort, that includes the pain and cost of changing)

Not that would recommend CellC to anyone. They have shockingly bad service. But nevertheless...

[SoulSe]

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not completely pessimistic, but I'm appalled by how apathetic and miss-informed the average South African consumer is.

In Switzerland a while ago there were ridiculously huge taxes placed on red meat. So what did the Swiss do? They stopped buying red meat completely until the tax was withdrawn - it took just under a week.

Can you imagine what would happen if the whole of South Africa stopped paying their Telkom bills tomorrow? Think about it - Telkom could not take legal action against millions of subscribers. They would cut a few hundred.. maybe even a few thousand off - and then what? They would have no choice but to effect some change. This is the mass consumer action I am speaking of.

See, us South Africans have it all wrong - we think Telkom is the boss and we owe them something. Bull****! We PAY Telkom. They owe us! If someone who works for you stops performing, what do you do? You punish them, you stop paying them, you reprimand them! But us South Africans? No, we get all scared and start with "Please Mr. Telkom, wouldn't you consider, in your benevolent superiority..." see the problem?

Stop paying the losers. Give them no choice.

But here's the problem. If I said, "Ok guys, starting tomorrow nobody pays Telkom." I'd get thousands of, "Hell yeah, lets do it!"s but when the day actually came I guarantee there'd be two of us standing there with egg on our face and legal action.

The problem is a grassroots one - we need to start by educating the consumer. It's already begun and guys like this board and Hellkom and Antitrust are all doing good work, but it needs to be broader in its scope, needs to involve your average man in the street more and then maybe we can get something done.

[Splint3r]

i agree with this thread, the fustration sometimes drives me away from this forum for an hour or two :p
something really needs to be done, i wish i could do something, not sure what thou :(

[SoulSe]

i agree with this thread, the fustration sometimes drives me away from this forum for an hour or two :p
something really needs to be done, i wish i could do something, not sure what thou :(
You could start by heading over to http://www.antitrust.co.za/ and signing their petition :D

We're all fed up, but we need to couple those feelings with some action.

[ettubrute]

@SoulSE: When the 1024 offering became available, everybody complained about the price. To my big suprise, the day after it was announced, there where members who ordered it! I posted a snotty comment with the same idea as yours about consumer boycotting, but was basically ignored completely. Thus, you're right. At the day of a boycot, we would be 2 ppl standing there with egg on our faces. I wish the SA masses would wake up! But, how can we achieve it, if even the "educated" members of this board do not know how consumer might/power works??? (And yes, I AM sarcastic towards the rest of the members! Talk, talk, talk, and nobody does anything else! :mad: )

[Highflyer_GP]

the problem is how do we inform the majority of telkom customers who are vastly uninformed about how badly we are being ripped off compared to the rest of the world, and being left behind. we could take some kind of action by marching and protesting - but do you think the message would even reach the SABC news who as we all know are only good for broadcasting the ANC's propoganda? when last did the SABC broadcast any truth regarding telkom? telkom pays them huge money for advertising during prime time.

mass action would work overseas because their broadcasters offer unbiased news. the message about getting ripped off would reach the man in the street. that enables them to take the necesarry action. in SA, the only message that reaches the man in the street is how much time away from home the president spends overseas, or "how much the government is trying to help the poor", or year long court cases regarding arms deals. more pressing issues like the pathetic telecomms environment we find ourselves in never reach the masses, because it is these telecomms companies that are paying huge amounts in advertising revenues.

the same goes for newspapers. i doubt there are any newspapers with the balls enough to expose these daylight robbers if they are getting paid huge sums for double page adverts and the like. things will change when:
Poison Ivy gets kicked out,
eliminating conflict of interest by government selling their shares that they own in any telecomms companies,
finding an unbiased channel of communication willing to expose the truth and reach the masses,
having a regulator that has the balls to take immediate action, without having to hold 20 public discussions (sponsored off course by said telecomms companies).

[ettubrute]

eliminating conflict of interest by government selling their shares that they own in any telecomms companies,Sure, this is paramount, but, how do you achieve it? Could one of the law people maybe give advise whether it is possible to take the gov to the constitutional court about this?

[SoulSe]

Our local news outlets are biased, but this is true all over the world. Fox News anyone? Unbiased news is a utopian ideal and, unfortunately, does not exist anywhere in the mass-media.

The difference is that your average consumer in places like the UK and America are savvy. They find out what they are paying for, they clue themselves up. In South Africa we are used to not having a choice. We are used to eating **** from the top. So we've become paradigm-driven and apathetic. The past regime is to blame for this. Their opinion was one of shut up or we'll sjambok you.

The new government must be given credit for being more open and generally honest, but as has been correctly pointed out here, we still have a huge corruption problem. The thing is, with the pre-1994 'regering' there was even worse corruption - we just never found out about it ;)

I have faith that politics is improving in this country, but we still have a long way to go. The whole world has problems with companies like Telkom - the difference is that they don't let them get away with it - we do. And Telkom owns our politicians via shares and, probably, some shady deals.

The timidity in our average consumer is where the buck stops though, because there is no way to educate someone who doesn't want to learn.

Me, I'm optimisstic about the future, but what kills me is that it will be years before anything improves.

[FunnyWan]

I know I'll probably get shot down for this but has anyone here thought of getting mnet's Carte Blanche or SABC 3's Special Assignment on to this story? :confused:

A show like Carte Blanche can do a lot in terms of putting pressure.

[tibby.dude]

@SoulSE: When the 1024 offering became available, everybody complained about the price. To my big suprise, the day after it was announced, there where members who ordered it!

A rather interesting observation :).
Companies will charge what the market will bear and not what it really costs them.

[pupa]

@SoulSE: When the 1024 offering became available, everybody complained about the price. To my big suprise, the day after it was announced, there where members who ordered it! I posted a snotty comment with the same idea as yours about consumer boycotting, but was basically ignored completely. Thus, you're right. At the day of a boycot, we would be 2 ppl standing there with egg on our faces. I wish the SA masses would wake up! But, how can we achieve it, if even the "educated" members of this board do not know how consumer might/power works??? (And yes, I AM sarcastic towards the rest of the members! Talk, talk, talk, and nobody does anything else! :mad: )

OK How about we all cut out ADSL links as from ! NOV. Um that would make at max on this forum. UM.....200/6000...If they participate at all. Telkom would not feel it. I just hope we see a massive cut on ADSL come 1 NOV but doubt it. We need enmass no communication days but who would participate ???

[ettubrute]

I know I'll probably get shot down for thisGet shot? :eek: Nah, you're not worth the bullet! :D

Would be nice to get Carte Blanche or Special Assignment involved, but I doubt whether it would help. Sure, the people will get informed, but the culprits will just hide the evidence further, and the status quo will be maintained. That's my opinion, and obviously I can be wrong!


A rather interesting observation :).Yes, aint it! Seems a lot of people have too much money! :D

We need enmass no communication days but who would participate ???Exactly! Consumers in SA are too dumb to fight!

[daysleeper]

The big problem is that dealing with telkom is on a consensual basis. Pay their prices or do without. They are not forcing anybody to use their services.

If you take into account the amount of computers in this country and the amount of people that are able to pay, you'll notice that these numbers are rather low compared to our US counterparts.

If telkom has the right to charge what they like, then we should have a right to provide our own alternative services.

so if everybody here would stop talking crap and have 1000s of posts and just get together and rent some satellite space and an uplink from the states and we could all chip in and buy dishes, that would solve all the problems.

At this stage talk is so cheap. ADSL is getting worse and worse and slower and more expensive all the time. so take it or find an alternative. everybody knows this already.

[ettubrute]

The big problem is that dealing with telkom is on a consensual basis. Pay their prices or do without.Sorry, but there is, BY LAW, no alternative!
we should have a right to provide our own alternative services.Agreed, but, BY LAW, we're not allowed to!

so if everybody here would stop talking crap and have 1000s of posts and just get together and rent some satellite space and an uplink from the states and we could all chip in and buy dishes, that would solve all the problems.Again, sorry, but this is AGAINST THE LAW

[SoulSe]

The big problem is that dealing with telkom is on a consensual basis. Pay their prices or do without. They are not forcing anybody to use their services.

If you take into account the amount of computers in this country and the amount of people that are able to pay, you'll notice that these numbers are rather low compared to our US counterparts.

If telkom has the right to charge what they like, then we should have a right to provide our own alternative services.

so if everybody here would stop talking crap and have 1000s of posts and just get together and rent some satellite space and an uplink from the states and we could all chip in and buy dishes, that would solve all the problems.

At this stage talk is so cheap. ADSL is getting worse and worse and slower and more expensive all the time. so take it or find an alternative. everybody knows this already. Your proposition, as has been pointed out, is illegal! Perhaps you should find out more about the situation.. then apply that energy to some legal plans of action
:D

[Highflyer_GP]

somehow i seem to think that telcum is acting as any monopoly would if they were protected under law. the real problem seems to be the law makers and their shares in said monopoly. it therefore comes as no surprise that telcum is full of praises for the current telecommunications act, and DoC taking their sweet time in opening up the market.

if carte blanche or special assignment or 3rd degree were to do a feature, it would have to be on conflict of interest regarding government. government would also have shares in SNO so that wouldn't help much as well. hopefully the convergence bill would open the market up a bit more, but with terms such as "managed liberalisation" and renaming ICASA to ECASA its not looking as if we making any progress.

the thing is that there is simply so much to educate the public on that it cannot simply be done in a 15 minute insert on a TV program. the only solution would be a free market either by LLU, or SAT3 cable declared an essential national asset, or both. the sooner government realises this, and actually implements it, the sooner we can move forward. but then again - conflict of interest. they all acknowledge the ridiculous telecomms costs, and all talk that something needs to be done, however there's no action to go with this hot air.

[SoulSe]

somehow i seem to think that telcum is acting as any monopoly would if they were protected under law. the real problem seems to be the law makers and their shares in said monopoly. it therefore comes as no surprise that telcum is full of praises for the current telecommunications act, and DoC taking their sweet time in opening up the market.

if carte blanche or special assignment or 3rd degree were to do a feature, it would have to be on conflict of interest regarding government. government would also have shares in SNO so that wouldn't help much as well. hopefully the convergence bill would open the market up a bit more, but with terms such as "managed liberalisation" and renaming ICASA to ECASA its not looking as if we making any progress.

the thing is that there is simply so much to educate the public on that it cannot simply be done in a 15 minute insert on a TV program. the only solution would be a free market either by LLU, or SAT3 cable declared an essential national asset, or both. the sooner government realises this, and actually implements it, the sooner we can move forward. but then again - conflict of interest. they all acknowledge the ridiculous telecomms costs, and all talk that something needs to be done, however there's no action to go with this hot air.
Very good points... the problem is bigger than just the consumer and bigger than just telkom, but they are contributors. As you said, any company given the freedom that Telkom has to rape the consumer would do the same thing. You give them carte blanche to do what they like, let them trade on the stock exchange and make it law that no competitors are allowed - obviously they will abuse that position.

ICASA are supposed to make sure this doesn't happen, but their pockets are lined with Telkom pennies. Same goes for government and Miss. Poison Ivy hasn't done jack to effect any change.

One thing that has happened is that Telkom has been given a lot of flack over pricing and that has to change drastically - I would like to take back what I said about the 1st of November, I now have reason to believe that while the mechanics may seem stupid, the final effects of the changes might be price reduction... I think we may just be celebrating come November. I have it on good authority that there will be an uncapped connection available from Telkom then, but the price is anybody's guess.

We'll have to wait and see. As for the SNO, I still maintain that they'll just jerk each other off, like Vodacom and MTN. Our cellular providers just mutually agree to rape the consumer together - so much for competition being the answer! :confused:

No, the SNO is not the answer to our problems, proper legislation and managment from government or a truly independant authority (not the toothless ICASA) is the answer.

Spain has a similar predicament not long ago. Their government solved the problem by opening the market completely. They said, "We're dropping all legislation. Want a slice of our telecomms market? Come get it." After a long free-for-all period of companies kniving each other in the streets, things settled down and Spain now has super connectivity from a variety of very progressive providers at very reasonable prices.

It's not that hard, but our systems here are tied up so tight in red tape that it will take years to unravel.

[R4tt3xx]

Spain has a similar predicament not long ago. Their government solved the problem by opening the market completely. They said, "We're dropping all legislation. Want a slice of our telecomms market? Come get it." After a long free-for-all period of companies kniving each other in the streets, things settled down and Spain now has super connectivity from a variety of very progressive providers at very reasonable prices.

It's not that hard, but our systems here are tied up so tight in red tape that it will take years to unravel.

Interesting point. Ivy has the power to bring that to pass, just read the telecoms act :)

[ettubrute]

Another interesting bit of news about Spain's telecoms: they put in a bit now to take over the Dutch Telecom company KPN! So, the dropping of legislation really worked well for the Spanish!