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Icasa licences SNO, unbundling of loop delayed
- Thread starter rpm
- Start date
Debbie
Banned
Very good article which brings the situation together in a nice little summary.
stoke
Honorary Master
/me wonders why SNO has not stood up and asked why this is true :
"The current telecommunications legislation says that there shall be no local loop unbundling during the first two years of operation of the SNO."
"The current telecommunications legislation says that there shall be no local loop unbundling during the first two years of operation of the SNO."
moosag
Expert Member
If they dont unbundle the local loop in the next 6 months then SA can kiss any sort of benefits from broadband good bye!
I am sorry to say guys & gals but our Government officials are just to greedy. Their greed is hampering the growth of our country. They protection of Telkom makes them wealthier but puts the disadvantages the Country in a manner that they do not realize. The worst part of it all, is that the leaders of this country are not skilled enough to see the consequences of their actions. Politicians do not know the first thing about benefits of broadband, or the difference between an IP network and the ATM network.
I have finally realized that the underlying problem does not lie with Telkom, but with the governance of this country i.e. DoC and our President. Telecoms industry is retroactive. It changes everyday. New Technology comes out everyday. A year ago America was number 1 with their 2MB Cable service. Now they "I think" out of the top 10. There's 10MB, 100MB, 1GB connections all over the show for reasonable prices. We are being left so far behind, its no use we even try to catch up. Our IT Industry is one of the best in the worlds. SA has alot to offer with regards to Service Orientated business. But due to lack of vision, governance, management, profiteering and greed we are where we are. The same principal applies to our Electrical Network. All of a sudden SA is running low on Electricity. Same goes for water.
The problem is that our government has put individuals in places of power who are not equipped to manage and govern it correctly. They all sit on their bums and do nothing for the country. Its a sad state of affairs.
But the worst part of it all is that we as individuals cant do anything to government. We been moaning for over 2 years with site like these, activist groups, etc... and there has been alot of bad publicity towards Telkom, Government. There has been alot of talk (Colloqiums, ADSL Draft Regulations, etc)... Thats all good and well. But government are going to protect Telkom first and foremost. Duopoloy is not going to even make a dent. And at the speed at which our government works, we might aswell all go back to the stone age! I completely give up. Our government is putting South Africa behind!
I am sorry to say guys & gals but our Government officials are just to greedy. Their greed is hampering the growth of our country. They protection of Telkom makes them wealthier but puts the disadvantages the Country in a manner that they do not realize. The worst part of it all, is that the leaders of this country are not skilled enough to see the consequences of their actions. Politicians do not know the first thing about benefits of broadband, or the difference between an IP network and the ATM network.
I have finally realized that the underlying problem does not lie with Telkom, but with the governance of this country i.e. DoC and our President. Telecoms industry is retroactive. It changes everyday. New Technology comes out everyday. A year ago America was number 1 with their 2MB Cable service. Now they "I think" out of the top 10. There's 10MB, 100MB, 1GB connections all over the show for reasonable prices. We are being left so far behind, its no use we even try to catch up. Our IT Industry is one of the best in the worlds. SA has alot to offer with regards to Service Orientated business. But due to lack of vision, governance, management, profiteering and greed we are where we are. The same principal applies to our Electrical Network. All of a sudden SA is running low on Electricity. Same goes for water.
The problem is that our government has put individuals in places of power who are not equipped to manage and govern it correctly. They all sit on their bums and do nothing for the country. Its a sad state of affairs.
But the worst part of it all is that we as individuals cant do anything to government. We been moaning for over 2 years with site like these, activist groups, etc... and there has been alot of bad publicity towards Telkom, Government. There has been alot of talk (Colloqiums, ADSL Draft Regulations, etc)... Thats all good and well. But government are going to protect Telkom first and foremost. Duopoloy is not going to even make a dent. And at the speed at which our government works, we might aswell all go back to the stone age! I completely give up. Our government is putting South Africa behind!
stoke
Honorary Master
Yup - point the finger at the right criminal !
captainwifi
Senior Member
- Joined
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I feel very sorry for you moosag. Communities will now simply leave M-web,IS behind as they build their own networks - partnering with council and use satellite for cheap fast access. non-profit CCTV data crossing the street using Zyxel Dslam/fiber/mesh are now formally legalized. But you guys are still stuck with the Telkom network as the only means of having a viable business model.
sunsoffun
Expert Member
The only thing we are going to need Telkom for, or even the SNO (if it ever get there) is the "local loop" and even that is going to fall away with technology such as Wi-Fi and Wi-Max coming up nicely. In the next three years I fell that copper connection for broadband internet is going to be a thing of the past.... that the beauty of it all.captainwifi said:
I feel that the SNO should not even worry about the local loop, they should concentrate on going wireless for the last mile and connect that to fibre. Not to sure if this presence license allows for this. Just my thoughts.
mancombseepgood
Executive Member
Hmmm
I bet they all knew this was going to be the case but kept it quiet and gave us hope that wasn't there to shut us up for a bit, thinking that licensing the SNO will look like someone is actually doing something. The SNO was probably told that this will be a condition of their existence. This whole SNO thing is a grand failure already because of the local loop problem.
"According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), unbundling of the local loop would allow the second operator to obtain revenue more quickly and accelerate investment."
Obviously this is not the intention of the Government or the greedy Baas Telkom.
The SNO will be working for Telkom for two years at least - sounds like slavery to me.
stoke said:
I bet they all knew this was going to be the case but kept it quiet and gave us hope that wasn't there to shut us up for a bit, thinking that licensing the SNO will look like someone is actually doing something. The SNO was probably told that this will be a condition of their existence. This whole SNO thing is a grand failure already because of the local loop problem.
"According to the Organisation for Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), unbundling of the local loop would allow the second operator to obtain revenue more quickly and accelerate investment."
Obviously this is not the intention of the Government or the greedy Baas Telkom.
The SNO will be working for Telkom for two years at least - sounds like slavery to me.
mancombseepgood
Executive Member
Yeah
If only satellite was cheap. lol. Where are you Captainwifi - what do you think of things where you are? Anyone from New Zealand here? How are things there? Just considering my options in case I need to - lol.
captainwifi said:
If only satellite was cheap. lol. Where are you Captainwifi - what do you think of things where you are? Anyone from New Zealand here? How are things there? Just considering my options in case I need to - lol.
mancombseepgood
Executive Member
sunsoffun said:
Interesting thoughts - I hope there is someting in this - unfortunately many see wireless as a convenience technology and feel justified in charging more than copper - it's the international trend... wifi is portable... it's time for SA's WIFI operators to buck the trend and drive the market pricing on broadband. COMEON MTN, Tata Indicom Jones whoever else wants to save the sorry consumers of this country and make a good honest buck while you're at it... Someone out there has an incredible opportunity if only ICASA lets them.
As for all the guys and girls out there who think ICASA are here to save us... well, I'd better not say...
I wouldn’t say the whole government is a mess, far from it actually.
The task they faced post 1995 was a mammoth one, and for the most part we are all still here and the economy is healthy. There have been a few failures sure, but not without a healthy dose of success.
That said though the honeymoon has been over for a long time and no person/party should ever be lenient towards the government based on their successes in other areas.
If they are doing an abysmal job in a certain area, let them know it and let them know it daily. The DoC no doubt has well intentioned and hard working folk in their midst, but the captain of that ship must be forced to walk the plank because she will hit icebergs in the 'Med' on every voyage.
Imagine if the government put in 0.1% of effort that they do in areas like BEE and transformation in general, into reforming our telecoms industry, we would all witness a telecoms revolution like no other with far reaching benefits for everyone in this country.
The slow pace at which this is all happening (considering the benefits) should make even the most objective citizen wonder and perhaps ask the question of 'who exactly has their hands in the cookie jar while nobody is looking'.
The task they faced post 1995 was a mammoth one, and for the most part we are all still here and the economy is healthy. There have been a few failures sure, but not without a healthy dose of success.
That said though the honeymoon has been over for a long time and no person/party should ever be lenient towards the government based on their successes in other areas.
If they are doing an abysmal job in a certain area, let them know it and let them know it daily. The DoC no doubt has well intentioned and hard working folk in their midst, but the captain of that ship must be forced to walk the plank because she will hit icebergs in the 'Med' on every voyage.
Imagine if the government put in 0.1% of effort that they do in areas like BEE and transformation in general, into reforming our telecoms industry, we would all witness a telecoms revolution like no other with far reaching benefits for everyone in this country.
The slow pace at which this is all happening (considering the benefits) should make even the most objective citizen wonder and perhaps ask the question of 'who exactly has their hands in the cookie jar while nobody is looking'.
mancombseepgood
Executive Member
Sneeky said:
Problem is that they probably are putting that kind of effort - you know - the Shaik BEE system.
mancombseepgood
Executive Member
Sneeky said:
Problem is that they appear to be putting that kind of effort in - you know - the Shaik BEE system.
The way forward
Well, let's have a look at the current scenario:
So, the biggest problem is the landing rights for the undersea cables. Since Tata owns something like 25% of the SAFE cable, they should be able to put pressure on the DoC to allow them landing rights too. If the SNO can bypass Telkom on international bandwidth, then we're smiling.
The main reason why Cell-C has only captured 10% of the market is that ICASA hasn't moved on declaring Vodacom and MTN to be dominant players and hence to regulate the interconnect fees at cost.
Now, for the SNO, the issue isn't going to be the cost of leased line bandwidth inside of South Africa. They have their own, and can install new connections wherever they need to. The issue will be the cost of bandwidth on the international side.
I would imagine that there will be a slim margin for an alternative long-distance service in the fixed line market at present. If a customer is originating a call on a Telkom fixed line, and the call is terminated on a Telkom fixed line, then Telkom probably won't be allowed to charge for the switch to the alternative long-distance carrier, but they can charge for the interconnect to terminate the call on their network. Now, with Telkom's strategy to reduce long-distance tariffs and increase local call tariffs, there's less margin in long-distance than there used to be.
However, if MTN and Cell-C offer the SNO better interconnect rates, then calls to those networks will become cheaper than, say, long distance from Joburg to Cape Town on Telkom. That would result in real competition and would certainly attract least-cost routing customers.
An important question is, what does it mean that the SNO can "use Telkom infrastructure" for the next two years? At what cost? Who bills the customer for the local loop?
Given the lack of vision at the DoC and ICASA, and also the complex vested interests and conflicts of interest created by having the DoC own 38.3% of Telkom, and Telkom owning 50% of Vodacom, as well as the stake that parastatials have in the SNO, it's really difficult to unwind the mess that has been created.
I do think that CaptainWiFi has a point. Communities are increasingly enabled by technology to self-provision the local loop. Next year should see bandwidth becoming available from the metros and municipalities. There are a number of ways to do it. There is the electricity grid. There is wireless. Municipalities also have the right to lay cables across public roads. Whole suburbs can get together and lay copper cables and fibre to connect every dwelling and business to a broadband grid to connect up security cameras to both commercial and non-profit monitoring companies. That can be the latest DSL technology, and be at least 20Mbit/s right now and 100Mb/s soon. The SNO can easily provide fibre optic links into the community-owned networks, which will enable low-cost connections between the various bits. Local calls will become essentially free. Using IPv6 addressing, there will be abundant address space, and every device can have a fixed IP address wherever needed. Wireless handsets can be used in a roaming environment.
We should not be too bothered about the unbundling of the local loop where that is copper cables. That technology is fast becoming obsolete. While it would be useful to be able to rapidly connect about 8 million lines to a high-bandwidth network, it would not take more than two years to replace it with better technologies.
The ultimate destination of the convergence that is occurring with telephones, data connections and broadcasting, is that the content will be the thing you pay for. The connection will be virtually free. The bandwidth will be virtually free.
The technologies that enable the future evolution of telecommunication are highly disruptive to traditional "telephone" companies like Telkom. They have to reinvent themselves constantly to stay in business. Being allowed to squeeze the maximum out of the obsolete technology for as long as possible is really helpful to the incumbent in terms of generating revenue from it, but it's highly detrimental to the customer and the economy of the country in the long run.
I believe that we need to embrace the disruptive technologies enthusiastically and basically say "stuff Telkom and the bureaucrats that can't see clearly where the rest of the World is going right now, never mind the future". Traditional broadcasters like the SABC will disappear. Telephone companies like Telkom will disappear in their traditional form. Video and DVD rental will become obsolete.
The future will consist of an enormous amount of content being available at the push of a button (or a voice command, for that matter). Movies will be available on demand. Video games will become increasingly interactive. News and advertising will become more and more individualised. You will pay for everything that you use, but you will also only get the stuff that you want.
Once you reach the point where the technology is no longer the focal point, it has become ubiquitous. We will not be talking about "wearable computing devices", we will be using them as naturally as we now use telephones and TVs. When we first started using cellphones, taking a call in a shopping mall attracted attention. Now, when a phone rings or beeps, everyone checks their handset. Generation-Xers don't think twice about all the connectivity, they just use it.
Maybe it's time to put a younger person in charge at the DoC? Dr Ivy is a baby-boom generation technophobe. Those who cannot adapt will become extinct, and that applies to politicians and telephone companies just as much as it applied to the dinosaurs.
Well, let's have a look at the current scenario:
- Telkom has another 2 years of monopoly on existing copper cable local loop
- Telkom has control of landing rights for SAT-3 and SAFE undersea cables.
- ICASA can and are licensing municipalities to roll out their own networks.
- SNO has the right to connect anyone to a fixed network.
- SNO already has some backbone infrastructure
So, the biggest problem is the landing rights for the undersea cables. Since Tata owns something like 25% of the SAFE cable, they should be able to put pressure on the DoC to allow them landing rights too. If the SNO can bypass Telkom on international bandwidth, then we're smiling.
The main reason why Cell-C has only captured 10% of the market is that ICASA hasn't moved on declaring Vodacom and MTN to be dominant players and hence to regulate the interconnect fees at cost.
Now, for the SNO, the issue isn't going to be the cost of leased line bandwidth inside of South Africa. They have their own, and can install new connections wherever they need to. The issue will be the cost of bandwidth on the international side.
I would imagine that there will be a slim margin for an alternative long-distance service in the fixed line market at present. If a customer is originating a call on a Telkom fixed line, and the call is terminated on a Telkom fixed line, then Telkom probably won't be allowed to charge for the switch to the alternative long-distance carrier, but they can charge for the interconnect to terminate the call on their network. Now, with Telkom's strategy to reduce long-distance tariffs and increase local call tariffs, there's less margin in long-distance than there used to be.
However, if MTN and Cell-C offer the SNO better interconnect rates, then calls to those networks will become cheaper than, say, long distance from Joburg to Cape Town on Telkom. That would result in real competition and would certainly attract least-cost routing customers.
An important question is, what does it mean that the SNO can "use Telkom infrastructure" for the next two years? At what cost? Who bills the customer for the local loop?
Given the lack of vision at the DoC and ICASA, and also the complex vested interests and conflicts of interest created by having the DoC own 38.3% of Telkom, and Telkom owning 50% of Vodacom, as well as the stake that parastatials have in the SNO, it's really difficult to unwind the mess that has been created.
I do think that CaptainWiFi has a point. Communities are increasingly enabled by technology to self-provision the local loop. Next year should see bandwidth becoming available from the metros and municipalities. There are a number of ways to do it. There is the electricity grid. There is wireless. Municipalities also have the right to lay cables across public roads. Whole suburbs can get together and lay copper cables and fibre to connect every dwelling and business to a broadband grid to connect up security cameras to both commercial and non-profit monitoring companies. That can be the latest DSL technology, and be at least 20Mbit/s right now and 100Mb/s soon. The SNO can easily provide fibre optic links into the community-owned networks, which will enable low-cost connections between the various bits. Local calls will become essentially free. Using IPv6 addressing, there will be abundant address space, and every device can have a fixed IP address wherever needed. Wireless handsets can be used in a roaming environment.
We should not be too bothered about the unbundling of the local loop where that is copper cables. That technology is fast becoming obsolete. While it would be useful to be able to rapidly connect about 8 million lines to a high-bandwidth network, it would not take more than two years to replace it with better technologies.
The ultimate destination of the convergence that is occurring with telephones, data connections and broadcasting, is that the content will be the thing you pay for. The connection will be virtually free. The bandwidth will be virtually free.
The technologies that enable the future evolution of telecommunication are highly disruptive to traditional "telephone" companies like Telkom. They have to reinvent themselves constantly to stay in business. Being allowed to squeeze the maximum out of the obsolete technology for as long as possible is really helpful to the incumbent in terms of generating revenue from it, but it's highly detrimental to the customer and the economy of the country in the long run.
I believe that we need to embrace the disruptive technologies enthusiastically and basically say "stuff Telkom and the bureaucrats that can't see clearly where the rest of the World is going right now, never mind the future". Traditional broadcasters like the SABC will disappear. Telephone companies like Telkom will disappear in their traditional form. Video and DVD rental will become obsolete.
The future will consist of an enormous amount of content being available at the push of a button (or a voice command, for that matter). Movies will be available on demand. Video games will become increasingly interactive. News and advertising will become more and more individualised. You will pay for everything that you use, but you will also only get the stuff that you want.
Once you reach the point where the technology is no longer the focal point, it has become ubiquitous. We will not be talking about "wearable computing devices", we will be using them as naturally as we now use telephones and TVs. When we first started using cellphones, taking a call in a shopping mall attracted attention. Now, when a phone rings or beeps, everyone checks their handset. Generation-Xers don't think twice about all the connectivity, they just use it.
Maybe it's time to put a younger person in charge at the DoC? Dr Ivy is a baby-boom generation technophobe. Those who cannot adapt will become extinct, and that applies to politicians and telephone companies just as much as it applied to the dinosaurs.
Last edited:
I posted a legal interpretation question wrt the EC Bill here: http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=33589ic said:
It seems to me that section 43.(8)(b) and 43.(10) of the EC Bill addresses the issue of access to SAT-3 and SAFE. The only possible caveat is 43.(11). Telkom has stated that the SAT-3 shareholder consortium agreement gives them exclusive landing rights. So the question is when the "honourable" minister will determine that the exclusivity agreement becomes prohibited.
International bandwidth
Section 43(10) seems to indicate that it will apply to any NEW agreements that are put in place after the date that Dr Ivy decides on.
The SAT-3 agreement runs until 2007, if I'm not mistaken. Then there will be a new agreement and that one will have to be subject to the new Act.
Maybe new bandwidth will be added before then. Perhaps the Minister of Finance will find a spare $600 million or so for another cable? If cabinet cancels the Gautrain there will be plenty to use for Telecomms infrastructure. Maybe, with enough bandwidth, all those crazy people who commute from Pretoria to Midrand and Sandton and back every day can become telecommuters instead?
I can always hope, I suppose.
Section 43(10) seems to indicate that it will apply to any NEW agreements that are put in place after the date that Dr Ivy decides on.
The SAT-3 agreement runs until 2007, if I'm not mistaken. Then there will be a new agreement and that one will have to be subject to the new Act.
Maybe new bandwidth will be added before then. Perhaps the Minister of Finance will find a spare $600 million or so for another cable? If cabinet cancels the Gautrain there will be plenty to use for Telecomms infrastructure. Maybe, with enough bandwidth, all those crazy people who commute from Pretoria to Midrand and Sandton and back every day can become telecommuters instead?
I can always hope, I suppose.
The SAT-3 agreement runs until 2007, if I'm not mistaken. Then there will be a new agreement and that one will have to be subject to the new Act.
uhm don't the gov stay the same till 2010 which means... Ivy will most likely just extend it
or maybe they will have a tender process which takes 2 more yrs to sort and then handover.
uhm don't the gov stay the same till 2010 which means... Ivy will most likely just extend it
or maybe they will have a tender process which takes 2 more yrs to sort and then handover.