Can employer insist on seeing your ID book (after 10 years)?

[telgom]

One of my colleagues is in the position that our employer is threatening to withhold his salary if he does not provide a certified copy of his ID book. He has worked for the same employer for over ten years and features in many of its publications, so his actual identity is not in doubt at all. He also travels abroad frequently on an SA passport and has offered to show them the passport instead. The employer refuses to accept the passport and insists on him providing a green ID book. He has lost his and does not feel like applying for a new one. He is, understandable, becoming more intransigent as HR becomes more aggressive about the issue. Can an employer really constructively dismiss an employee for not having an ID book?

I know that I am asking for free legal advice and since many people ask me for (and get) free IT advice, I am hoping for some help here! Antwoord gerus in Afrikaans ook.

[MarkNC]

I dont think not having a Green barcoded ID in his possession is grounds for a dismissal; However, if there is doubt as to the identity of the employee and the employee shows no attempt to prove his/her identity, this could imply that the individual is potentially an imposter but it is the responsibility of HR to verify this on employment. Interesting...

[markface]

Isn't it a company requirement every year to give a new certified ID book copy? Well it happens every year in my company.

[HavocXphere]

SA passport and has offered to show them the passport
Tell him to actually show the passport to them regardless of whether they want to see it. I doubt he can lose any legal dispute after that.

Careful though, he might keep his job but sour the work relationships to such an extent that he might as well quit.


does not feel like applying for a new one
Tell him to quit being a wuss and just do it.


Isn't it a company requirement every year to give a new certified ID book copy? Well it happens every year in my company.
No. All the people working at Siemens SA etc that are sent from Germany don't even have ID books, so there is no specific rule like that.

If there is a rule it will be geared towards having a work permit, which is kinda a moot point if he has an SA passport.

[Tosser]

Maybe try these guys for some free advice?

http://www.nio.co.za/labourlaw/tag/free-labour-law-advice/

[supersunbird]

One of my colleagues is in the position that our employer is threatening to withhold his salary if he does not provide a certified copy of his ID book. He has worked for the same employer for over ten years and features in many of its publications, so his actual identity is not in doubt at all. He also travels abroad frequently on an SA passport and has offered to show them the passport instead. The employer refuses to accept the passport and insists on him providing a green ID book. He has lost his and does not feel like applying for a new one. He is, understandable, becoming more intransigent as HR becomes more aggressive about the issue. Can an employer really constructively dismiss an employee for not having an ID book?

I know that I am asking for free legal advice and since many people ask me for (and get) free IT advice, I am hoping for some help here! Antwoord gerus in Afrikaans ook.

Why doesn't he ask to have paid leave to go get a new one but it shouldn't be deducted from his leave balance? One day to apply for it and one day to collect is when its ready. Everybody wins?

As hy hardkoppig wil wees en die werkgewer ook so bly gaan hy homself net belemmer, negatiewe performance assessment wat tot 'n laer bonus kan lui vir die jaar, geen salaris verhoging volgende jaar, ens.

[ave]

Why doesn't he ask to have paid leave to go get a new one but it shouldn't be deducted from his leave balance? One day to apply for it and one day to collect is when its ready. Everybody wins?


good one

[telgom]

Why doesn't he ask to have paid leave to go get a new one but it shouldn't be deducted from his leave balance? One day to apply for it and one day to collect is when its ready. Everybody wins?

As hy hardkoppig wil wees en die werkgewer ook so bly gaan hy homself net belemmer, negatiewe performance assessment wat tot 'n laer bonus kan lui vir die jaar, geen salaris verhoging volgende jaar, ens.

Hierdie werkgewer gee nie bonusse nie en hoewel daar 'n (geldlose) prestasiebeoordeling is, gee die mense wat die IDs soek ook nie die punte nie.

The question is academic but the guy really just does not like to waste time. *I* don't mind wasting time discussing the issue since it's much more interesting than going to Home Affairs.

[Venomous]

Tell him to actually show the passport to them regardless of whether they want to see it. I doubt he can lose any legal dispute after that.

Careful though, he might keep his job but sour the work relationships to such an extent that he might as well quit.

Softer approach would be to give them a certified copy of his passport while telling them he will go apply for the greenbook as his is missing. Then to ask for the time off to go do just that.


If they start with stories why apply now then he can say that as other places will accept a passport or DL as proof of who you are he has not bothered due to the long queues & slow proccesses at home affairs

[telgom]

Tell him to actually show the passport to them regardless of whether they want to see it. I doubt he can lose any legal dispute after that.

Careful though, he might keep his job but sour the work relationships to such an extent that he might as well quit.

That's a good idea. HR couldn't really get you fired in this case.

[Edduck]

What is such a big issue about showing the employer your ID?? It basically says the same things that your passport says and not applying for a new ID is just lazy, you need it for so many things!!

UNLEss... His identity is in doubt and he is hiding something...?

[MegasXLR]

He can get a temporary ID.

[The_Librarian]

Drivers licence?

[The_Librarian]

Now that I've said that - I do drive with company cars sometime, but never been asked to supply a copy of my drivers licence.

[D3x!]

tell him just to go get it, how does he vote etc without it :mad:

[atomcrusher]

All employers in SA are obliged to ensure that all prospective and/or current employees have the legal right to work in SA, i.e. employee is a SA citizen, or is a Permanent Resident of SA, or has a valid work permit to work in SA. The penalties / fines that an employer can get for non-compliance are severe. But a SA Passport should also suffice as proof, to an employer

[Lycanthrope]

What is such a big issue about showing the employer your ID?? It basically says the same things that your passport says and not applying for a new ID is just lazy, you need it for so many things!!

Not really. Your driver's licence suffices for basically everything you'd need an ID for.

[ebendl]

I agree - this guy is risking a whole lot (off the records i.e. a soured work relationships) by not showing them his ID. Goodness, you need your ID for everything these days, so you really need to have one. And his company probably has everything on file, so they can't really steal his identity (or what ever academic reason he has for not showing them his ID).

Let him tell them that it has been stolen/lost, show them his passport (just to ease things while he gets a new one), if he wants ask for leave to apply for a new one and then go and stand in the queues like everybody else.

Edit: I'm also pretty sure that if he ever takes legal action against them, somebody (the judge, the lawyer etc.) will show to see his ID. ;)

[Devill]

I dont think not having a Green barcoded ID in his possession is grounds for a dismissal; However, if there is doubt as to the identity of the employee and the employee shows no attempt to prove his/her identity, this could imply that the individual is potentially an imposter but it is the responsibility of HR to verify this on employment. Interesting...

+1. Also the problem is that the law (IIRC) states that if you lose your ID you need to apply for a new one as soon as humanly possible. :(

[bwana]

+1. Also the problem is that the law (IIRC) states that if you lose your ID you need to apply for a new one as soon as humanly possible. :(Good thing I've never bothered to get one - I lose things. :)
Edit: I'm also pretty sure that if he ever takes legal action against them, somebody (the judge, the lawyer etc.) will show to see his ID. ;)ROFL.

[Devill]

Not really. Your driver's licence suffices for basically everything you'd need an ID for.

I know at ABSA they require a green barcoded ID.
No not a license, no not a passport... :mad:

[telgom]

tell him just to go get it, how does he vote etc without it :mad:

Well, undoubtedly the easiest thing to do but that's not really the question. There are plenty of relatively easy things that one might not care to be *forced* to do. I know these HR people and it is highly likely that they are simply mistaken and going FAR beyond what they are entitled to do. The guy is a well-known person (in his field) and his identity is certainly not in doubt.

[telgom]

+1. Also the problem is that the law (IIRC) states that if you lose your ID you need to apply for a new one as soon as humanly possible. :(

Oh, dear. And what should you do if you suddenly find the one that you had "lost"? I find it's better to always have two...

[telgom]

All employers in SA are obliged to ensure that all prospective and/or current employees have the legal right to work in SA, i.e. employee is a SA citizen, or is a Permanent Resident of SA, or has a valid work permit to work in SA. The penalties / fines that an employer can get for non-compliance are severe. But a SA Passport should also suffice as proof, to an employer

I don't think you get an ID if you only have a work permit. Also, if you lose your SA citizenship, I don't think they necessarily take the ID book back so it is not really proof of too much in this regard. It is perhaps understandable that the employee might have to provide some proof of being allowed to work in SA but for that a passport should suffice.

[Devill]

Oh, dear. And what should you do if you suddenly find the one that you had "lost"? I find it's better to always have two...

The code on it should show it as the lost one. Thus it should be of as much use as an expired passport.

[evilstebunny]

I have a similar problem, not the employee wanting my ID part, but struggling without my green ID.

My ID was taken during a burglary at my home (it was in my laptop bag). I promptly applied for a new one & got a temp at the same time. Waited the obligatory 6 weeks with no news, only to find out 'binnelande swape' had lost my photos (I recall they had been stapled to the application form). So .. sligtly miffed I took new photos & submitted them at the same office I filed the original application, only to find out later that the photos had never reached my application, and 'could I please resubmit my entire application from scratch'. I even got a letter from the bungling idiots stating that I won't have to pay for the application again (duh!) but honestly I just haven't found the time/willpower to go through the process again.

I've been using my Passport for most identification tasks (like Rica) since, but problem is some places don't accept anything except but the green ID book. My bank for example flatly refused to open an additional savings account for me, despite me having my 1) passport, 2) temporary ID, 3) commissioner of oaths-certified copy of my original ID and my 4) driver's licence to prove that I am who I say I am. I guess we've gone full circle back to the days of the dompas.

[Dolby]

If they're so insistent - maybe there's a reason?
Maybe they recently became aware of something?

[Celine]

well if he ever has a problem with his banking details at SARS, he's going to have problems now because they want the green barcoded ID book, and he can spin whatever yarn he wants to he is not going to get anywhere. so i suggest he gets one right away and stop being a moron.

[telgom]

The code on it should show it as the lost one. Thus it should be of as much use as an expired passport.

The "lost" simply has a different code and I don't recall anyone ever checking whether an ID number had been superseded by a new one or not. An expired passport with a US visa in it is really worth more than a fresh one and I know people who have travelled here from Australia as well as back on an expired (SA) passport although I wouldn't try it.

[telgom]

well if he ever has a problem with his banking details at SARS, he's going to have problems now because they want the green barcoded ID book, and he can spin whatever yarn he wants to he is not going to get anywhere. so i suggest he gets one right away and stop being a moron.

That's a problem only if you want money from SARS, I presume.

[telgom]

If they're so insistent - maybe there's a reason?
Maybe they recently became aware of something?

They definitely have (had) ghost workers galore but they have asked me for my ID and qualifications several times because the drones in HR keep on "losing" them. How many foreigners am I married to, I wonder.

[telgom]

I have a similar problem, not the employee wanting my ID part, but struggling without my green ID.

My ID was taken during a burglary at my home (it was in my laptop bag). I promptly applied for a new one & got a temp at the same time. Waited the obligatory 6 weeks with no news, only to find out 'binnelande swape' had lost my photos (I recall they had been stapled to the application form). So .. sligtly miffed I took new photos & submitted them at the same office I filed the original application, only to find out later that the photos had never reached my application, and 'could I please resubmit my entire application from scratch'. I even got a letter from the bungling idiots stating that I won't have to pay for the application again (duh!) but honestly I just haven't found the time/willpower to go through the process again.

I've been using my Passport for most identification tasks (like Rica) since, but problem is some places don't accept anything except but the green ID book. My bank for example flatly refused to open an additional savings account for me, despite me having my 1) passport, 2) temporary ID, 3) commissioner of oaths-certified copy of my original ID and my 4) driver's licence to prove that I am who I say I am. I guess we've gone full circle back to the days of the dompas.

I agree with you, especially w.r.t. the dompas remark. It's not normally that difficult to show an ID but exactly because you have to show it so often, it can relatively easily get lost or stolen. I mean, that's why you had it in your laptop bag and not in the safe, I presume. If a driver's licence is good enough for the US as a general ID, why not for us?

[Gargmel]

I work in the security industry, even though I have to go for security clearances, they only ever ask for my fingerprints, not once have they asked for an ID...:erm:

[supersunbird]

The code on it should show it as the lost one. Thus it should be of as much use as an expired passport.

There is no code :wtf:

[Celine]

That's a problem only if you want money from SARS, I presume.


no if your banking details are incorrect you have to update without SARS, regardless whether you are owed money or not. don't start with carp about money being owed to you or not.

[BBSA]

The code on it should show it as the lost one. Thus it should be of as much use as an expired passport.

What code? and when does it get applied, before or after get got lost?

[GreGorGy]

He should tell 'em to get stuffed. They won't pay him then. So he will go to CCMA and they will insist on an ID - nothing else. ID or nothing. So, he really has no choice but to get his damned ID book.

Then comes the CCMA: from the date of said unfair labour practise till filing must not exceed 90 days. So, he fails to cooperate, they screw him, he goes to CCMA, they demand ID. He goes to Home Affairs, they take 91 days - he has successfully screwed himself.

[genetic]

He must just get a new ID book - Banks require it, SARS requires it. There's a reason it's called an Identity Document. Home affairs is even open on a Saturday.

Even if for what ever reason this ends up at the CCMA - they still going to want to know why he didn't get an ID book.

It just looks suspicious.


tell him just to go get it, how does he vote etc without it :mad:

He's obviously one of those that don't vote. Makes it even worse.

[ebendl]

Not really. Your driver's licence suffices for basically everything you'd need an ID for.

Not true - it doesn't actually show your full name!

[ebendl]

I lock up my ID in a safe at home - too value to lose these days and too difficult to replace!

[Garyvdh]

What is such a big issue about showing the employer your ID?? It basically says the same things that your passport says and not applying for a new ID is just lazy, you need it for so many things!!

UNLEss... His identity is in doubt and he is hiding something...?

Exactly... there is something fishy going on here.
Why would anyone not want to do this in order to keep their job?

[noxibox]

The code on it should show it as the lost one. Thus it should be of as much use as an expired passport.
Where is the code?

[supersunbird]

Where is the code?

Yeah, I'm still waiting for this code to be revealed, its been a week already since I asked.

[efitol]

there is no "code". my wife (before we got married) lost her ID, got a new one, registered to vote with the new ID, found her old ID and actually voted with the old ID. that barcode in the ID stayed the same. it will be interesting to see if her NEW new ID (surname change) also has the same barcode.