Fundamentalist sect leader jailed for life for sex with child brides

[daveza]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/09/warren-jeffs-jailed-life-sentence


Warren Jeffs, the leader of the Fundamentalist Mormon church that practises polygamy, is likely to spend the rest of his life behind bars after he was given the maximum sentence for taking girls as young as 12 to be his brides.

Jeffs, 55, who represented himself during most of his trial though he refused to attend the final stages, claimed that his prosecution was a violation of his religious rights and warned it would lead to "sickness and death" being brought on the locality.

But a Texas jury took just 40 minutes to hand him the toughest sentence open to them – life in prison for aggravated sexual assault and 20 years in prison for sexual assault of a child. The sentences followed Jeffs's conviction last week on two counts relating to polygamist marriages with girls aged 12 and 15.

1 down, many to go.

[MartyMarts]

claimed that his prosecution was a violation of his religious rights

So having intercourse with little girls is a religious right? Sick bastard. Hopefully he now experiences the 'religious' ass-raping rights of his fellow inmates.

[DJ...]

Woohoo, great news. Your religion can go fsck itself and its rights if it promotes the exploitation of people, especially kids...

[Garyvdh]

I'd love to see someone take out this sicko! :mad:

Did he ever read this in his bible???

"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."

[porchrat]

I'd love to see someone take out this sicko! :mad:

Did he ever read this in his bible???

"but whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in Me to stumble, it would be better for him to have a heavy millstone hung around his neck, and to be drowned in the depth of the sea."
How is he making the kids stumble? They are married. It isn't like he made them sin or anything.

I'm not saying I condone what the dude did. He is a sicko and prison is definitely what he needs but I question the relevance of that bible verse.

[Nicko]

How is he making the kids stumble? They are married. It isn't like he made them sin or anything.

I'm not saying I condone what the dude did. He is a sicko and prison is definitely what he needs but I question the relevance of that bible verse.

Ye dude wouldn't recommend using the bible to try condemn this guys actions, the bible is all for child marriages/relationships. One of the many many reasons I don't follow it.

[Devill]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/09/warren-jeffs-jailed-life-sentence

1 down, many to go.

+1. Hope someone can make him feel what he did to those kids....

[Garyvdh]

How is he making the kids stumble? They are married. It isn't like he made them sin or anything.

I'm not saying I condone what the dude did. He is a sicko and prison is definitely what he needs but I question the relevance of that bible verse.

It wasn't so much the stumbling part I was focusing on... it was the hanging of the millstone around his neck part and chucking him into the sea.
The point is... this guy's god takes injury to little ones very seriously.
And to me... introducing underage children to sexual activity is an injury to them... both physically and mentally.

[Garyvdh]

the bible is all for child marriages/relationships

um really? Can you provide us with a quote to substantiate that?

[AstroTurf]

Oop[s wrong thread.


Paedophile is paedophile.

[Arthur]

He should have said he was a muslim.

[evilstebunny]

2 virgins down, 68 to go. Oops .. sorry wrong religion.

[MyWorld]

Ye dude wouldn't recommend using the bible to try condemn this guys actions, the bible is all for child marriages/relationships. One of the many many reasons I don't follow it.
Care to point this out to me in the Bible?

[markface]

Yussis, some ous are sick dude. A 55yo who even finds a 12yo attractive has problems - good riddance.

[porchrat]

It wasn't so much the stumbling part I was focusing on... it was the hanging of the millstone around his neck part and chucking him into the sea.
The point is... this guy's god takes injury to little ones very seriously.
And to me... introducing underage children to sexual activity is an injury to them... both physically and mentally.
There is no reference that I know of in the bible condemning child marriage. So while you might personally consider this an injury to the child (and I agree with you) don't pretend your holy scriptures are backing you up here.

[Garyvdh]

There is no reference that I know of in the bible condemning child marriage.

That is an argument from silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence). There is nothing in the Bible mentioning child marriage at all.

[Greylor]

He'll get plenty of sex where he's going. He just won't enjoy it as much.

[porchrat]

That is an argument from silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence).
Uh no it is isn't.


The argument from silence (also called argumentum ex silentio in Latin) is generally a conclusion based on silence or lack of contrary evidence.
Could you please show me my conclusion? As far as I was aware I didn't have one.



There is nothing in the Bible mentioning child marriage at all.
Exactly. So your scriptures don't back you here. Quoting from the bible on anything surrounding this matter is therefore pretty much pointless.

[Garyvdh]

Uh no it is isn't.
Could you please show me my conclusion? As far as I was aware I didn't have one.
Exactly. So your scriptures don't back you here. Quoting from the bible on anything surrounding this matter is therefore pretty much pointless.


There is no reference that I know of in the bible condemning child marriage.
So while you might personally consider this an injury to the child (and I agree with you)
don't pretend your holy scriptures are backing you up here.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you... it looked like you were trying to say that the bible is for child marriage because it never explicitly condemns it.

I did not quote the Bible to say that it condemns child marriage.
I quoted it to say that those who harm children will be in for a world of hurt.

[Ronjay]

Ye dude wouldn't recommend using the bible to try condemn this guys actions, the bible is all for child marriages/relationships. One of the many many reasons I don't follow it.

BS. BS. BS.

[Ancalagon]

Geez one of my cousins is 12. I am so glad I do not find her attractive. Otherwise pass me the millstone.

Sicko - hope he rots.

[kooldude]

This dude is going to enjoy his future sexual life in prison. He must be a sick bastard for having sex with kids.

[porchrat]

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood you... it looked like you were trying to say that the bible is for child marriage because it never explicitly condemns it.
If I had meant that I would have said it. Apology accepted.



I did not quote the Bible to say that it condemns child marriage.
Then the quote is irrelevant if it wasn't in reference to child marriage.

[Arthur]

Exactly. So your scriptures don't back you here. Quoting from the bible on anything surrounding this matter is therefore pretty much pointless.
Er, actually the Hebrew scriptures (which you might not know are incorporated into the Christian scriptures) do establish puberty as the minimum age for marriage. Example: Ez 16:7-8 (various translations provided):

and grow up like a plant of the field. And you grew up and became tall and arrived at full maidenhood; your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare. When I passed by you again and looked upon you, behold, you were at the age for love; ... RSV

and grow up like a plant of the field. You grew up and became tall and arrived at full womanhood; your breasts were formed, and your hair had grown; yet you were naked and bare. I passed by you again and looked on you; you were at the age for love -- NRSV

You grew and developed, you came to the age of puberty; your breasts were formed, your hair had grown, but you were still stark naked. Again I passed by you and saw that you were now old enough for love -- NAB

And I made you grow like the gross of the fields. You developed, you, you reached marriageable age. Your breasts became firm and your hair grew richly, but you were stark naked -- New Jerusalem Bible

"I will increase your numbers just like plants growing in the field." And you did increase, you developed, you reached puberty, your breasts appeared, and your hair grew long; but you were naked and exposed... Again I passed by you, looked at you and saw that your time had come, the time for love... Complete Jewish Bible

I caused you [Israel] to multiply as the bud which grows in the field, and you increased and became tall and you came to full maidenhood and beauty; your breasts were formed and your hair had grown, yet you were naked and bare. Now I passed by you again and looked upon you; behold, you were maturing and at the time for love, -- Amplified Bible

I took care of you, like someone caring for a tender, young plant. You grew up to be a beautiful young woman with perfect breasts and long hair, but you were still naked. When I saw you again, you were old enough to have sex -- CEV


Bible Commentaries

16:1ff This message reminded Jerusalem of its former despised status among the Canaanite nations. Using the imagery of a young baby growing to mature womanhood, God reminded that he raised her from a lowly state to great glory as his bride… (Life Application Study Bible, New American Bible- Updated Edition [Zondervan Grand Rapids, MI, May 2000], p. 1364)

16:6-14 The LORD passes by twice (vv. 6-7, 8-14)... The LORD's action contrasts with that of the parents. Following ancient Near Eastern custom, the LORD enacts a legal adoption by announcing, literally, "In your blood, live." The life-giving act, however, is threatened by the nakedness of postpubescent reality… The LORD acts to protect the vulnerable young woman who is now sexually mature… (The New Interpreter's Study Bible: New Revised Standard Version With the Apocrypha (Hardcover) [Abingdon Press, May, 2003], p. 1175)

The creative command turned into fact, and the baby grew into adolescence and sexual maturity, marked by breasts and pubic hair (cf. Isa 7:20)… (Leslie C. Allen, Word Biblical Commentary: Ezekiel 1-19 [Word Book Publishers, Dallas TX 1994], p. 237)

God then cared for the nation and caused it to increase and flourish like sprouts in a field, language reminiscent of the growth of the nation in Egypt as described in Exod 1:7, 12. So she (Israel) prospered until she reached the maturity of womanhood. As a beautiful young woman of marriageable age, she became the wife of Yahweh… (Lamar Eugene Cooper, Sr., New American Commentary: An Exegetical and Theological Exposition of Holy Scripture- NIV Text, Ezekiel [Broadman & Holman Publishers 1994], pp. 169-170)

… The word of the Lord was all it took to turn the field from a place of death (16:5) to a place of life (16:7). Subsequently, she grew up, reached sexual maturity (16:7), and attained an age appropriate for marriage (16:8)…

6. NIV: "You … became the most beautiful of jewels. Your breasts were formed and your hair grew," should perhaps rather be translated, "You developed the ornament of ornaments [namely] your breasts were formed and your [pubic] hair sprouted." The point is the physical development that accompanies the onset of puberty… (Iain M. Duguid, The NIV Application Commentary: Ezekiel [Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids MI, 1999], p. 210)

… The text chronicles her growth; she flourishes (grows up) "like a sprout (… semah) of the field," a vegetal simile conventionally an increase in population, but here descriptive of physical maturation. "At full womanhood" (NRSV) is, in Hebrew, "ornament of ornaments" (i.e., the loveliest of ornaments): well-formed and "sprouted" [simmeah] pubic hair. Ezekiel’s double of samah, "to sprout," v. 7 creates a "a verbal bridge" between the images of vegetal fertility and female puberty… Now Yahweh passes by her again and, seeing that she has reached the age for sexual lovemaking… spreads the edge (lit., "wing") of his cloak over her, covering her nakedness… (The New Interpreter’s Bible: A Commentary in Twelve Volumes: Introduction to Prophetic Literature, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Lamentations, Ezekiel [Abingdon Press, Nashville 2001], Volume VI, pp. 1226-1228)

… It denotes growing to the threshold of maturity and child bearing in a woman… After this there takes place the second occasion of Yahweh’s passing by, introduced verbally exactly like the first. This calls the mature girl to the full honor of womanhood and to "life" in the full sense… the sovereign freedom of Yahweh, who is wherever he wills to be and who is therefore always present at the right time, is to be seen in this. Yahweh affirms what v. 7 has described, on the basis of what he himself has seen, and does not shrink from the view that he is waiting until the time is ripe. Then he affirms his choice… (Walther Zimmerli, Hermenia, Critical and Historical Commentary on the Bible Series- Ezekiel 1: A Commentary on the Book of the Prophet Ezekiel, Chapters 1-24 [Fortress Press, Philadelphia 1979], pp. 339-340)

A Jewish commentary writes regarding 16:6-8:

God wills the abandoned infant to live. She lives and grows to puberty… Upon reaching puberty, she is ready for marriage… (The Jewish Study Bible: Tanakh Translation, Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim (Hardcover) [Oxford University Press, October 2003], p. 1069)


In light of the foregoing we conclude that the Bible does set forth the acceptable age of marriage. Yahweh’s parable to his people presupposes their prior knowledge and acceptance of the marriageable age being set sometime after a young maiden has attained puberty. Anything before this would be viewed as abnormal and unusual. Extra-biblical sources provide some support for puberty being the marriageable age, that both Jews and Christians have understood this to be the case. For instance, an early Christian writer and Church Father, Clement of Alexandria, wrote:

It is not only fornication, but also the giving in marriage prematurely, that is called fornication; when, so to speak, one not of ripe age is given to a husband, either of her own accord or by her parents. (Clement of Alexandria, IX.-Fragment of the Treatise on Marriage, Early Church Fathers - Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume II; online edition; bold and underline emphasis ours)

The Mishnah sets the age of maturity for a female at twelve years and six months: "she won her case in court before she matured [at the age of twelve years and six months], lo, they belong to the father." Mishnah Ketubot, 4:1.

The Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible in volume 2, page 1407, under "Marriage", states this about Jewish marriage customs: "Subsequently, minimum ages (for marriage) of 13 for boys and 12 for girls were set."

Jim West, Th.D., writes in an online article titled, "Ancient Israelite Marriage Customs": "The wife was to be taken from within the larger family circle (usually at the ‘outset of puberty’ or around the age of 13) in order to maintain the purity of the family line."

The foregoing also puts to rest the slander and false claim that passages such as Numbers 31:17-18 allow men to have sex with young, prepubescent girls, something nowhere stated within the chapter itself. The passage from Ezekiel establishes the point that these young girls could not be touched until they attained the age of puberty, and even then the men had to marry them as the following citation states:

"When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife. It shall be, if you are not pleased with her, then you shall let her go WHEREVER SHE WISHES; BUT YOU SHALL CERTAINLY NOT SELL HER FOR MONEY, YOU SHALL NOT MISTREAT HER, because you have humbled her." Deuteronomy 21:10-14

[Ronjay]

If I had meant that I would have said it. Apology accepted.



Then the quote is irrelevant if it wasn't in reference to child marriage.

Porchie, relax dude. Gary is just trying to express his disgust, nothing more.

And let's not legitimise something as evil as that by calling it "marriage". It's child abuse, pure and simple (but no less evil).

[Nothxkbi]

Er, actually the Hebrew scriptures (which you might not know are incorporated into the Christian scriptures) do establish puberty as the minimum age for marriage. Example: Ez 16:7-8 (various translations provided):

Many girls hit puberty from aged 9!

http://i.imgur.com/mFBR9.jpg

[porchrat]

Er, actually the Hebrew scriptures (which you might not know are incorporated into the Christian scriptures) do establish puberty as the minimum age for marriage. Example: Ez 16:7-8 (various translations provided):
LOL you think "puberty" is an acceptable measure to avoid paedophilia? Oh pull the other one mate ROFL :D:D:D

[porchrat]

Porchie, relax dude. Gary is just trying to express his disgust, nothing more.

And let's not legitimise something as evil as that by calling it "marriage". It's child abuse, pure and simple (but no less evil).
I'm perfectly relaxed. :confused:

No it is still marriage. Marriage is just a legal contract sanctioned by the country with consenting people. If the guardians consent and the state and church allows for that it is a marriage by any real definition. It is still horrific and absolutely retarded but it is marriage.

[Garyvdh]

If I had meant that I would have said it. Apology accepted.

I mistook you for saying what you mistook me for saying! :p
Neither one of us was trying to say that the Bible actually forbids Child marriage.
It says nothing whatsoever about it.


Then the quote is irrelevant if it wasn't in reference to child marriage.

Sure it is relevant. If this guy claims to be a Christian (albeing some weird Mormon sect) then he must follow the Bible.
But this same Bible he claims to follow warns that those who harm children are in for it.


People were bringing little children to Jesus to have him bless them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these.

Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin.

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Whether or not you believe the whole of it... the point is that the very book this guy claims to follow already condemns him.

[Garyvdh]

Porchie, relax dude. Gary is just trying to express his disgust, nothing more.

And let's not legitimise something as evil as that by calling it "marriage". It's child abuse, pure and simple (but no less evil).

Exactly, thanks.

I have no allowance for marriage where the parties to it are too young to comprehend the import of their actions.
Anybody under 16 or thereabouts is too young to be married even with their parents consent.
The legal age for marriage in the State of Utah is 18, 16 with parental consent, 15 with court approval.
That means that these kids were most likely not even legally married to him.

[DJ...]

Er, actually the Hebrew scriptures (which you might not know are incorporated into the Christian scriptures) do establish puberty as the minimum age for marriage. Example: Ez 16:7-8 (various translations provided):

The Talmud quite clearly promotes under-aged sex and even claim that three years old and one day is the age at which she is betrothed by interourse. Jewish scriptures are not the way to go in this case...

[Nothxkbi]

http://i.imgur.com/BA39S.jpg

[daveza]

The Talmud quite clearly promotes under-aged sex and even claim that three years old and one day is the age at which she is betrothed by interourse.

Seriously ?

[nightjar]

That is an argument from silence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_silence). There is nothing in the Bible mentioning child marriage at all.

The Bible does not mention Jesus being married but in the context of the times is is reasonable to assume that he was actually married.

[Nerfherder]

Without quoting the bible you can see that the entire religion condones child molestation by the way they turn a blind eye to it.

Its quite a modern thing to have a legal age for sex/marriage, its not one of the laws that we inherited from any religion.

[Ronjay]

I'm perfectly relaxed. :confused:

No it is still marriage. Marriage is just a legal contract sanctioned by the country with consenting people. If the guardians consent and the state and church allows for that it is a marriage by any real definition. It is still horrific and absolutely retarded but it is marriage.

Ah ,but it wasn't allowed by the state, so it is not marriage.;)

[Nothxkbi]

Nothing wrong with a lil fresh grass on the wicket.

[DJ...]

Seriously ?

Dead serious. 3 years old for a girl and ten years old for a boy. It goes on to stipulate financial penalties for having sex with a minor which are identical to that of a girl accidentally injuring her hymen. And that it's acceptable from a virginity perspective because sex with a three year old is like poking someone in the eye - the eye waters over and over and over, ergo virginity regenerates. Oh and the kicker - that sex with a young boy is not considered a sexual act. It's plain looney if you ask me. Judaism will K.O most other religions in a nutjob boxing match...

[Arthur]

This is already quite a digression.
Marriage is just a legal contract sanctioned by the country with consenting people. If the guardians consent and the state and church allows for that it is a marriage by any real definition. "Any real definition"? but that's exactly what's moot here. Yours is just one of many definitions, and primarily from a civil law point of view. There are others. In the Christian vision, marriage is not a contract sanctioned by the State - the State doesn't feature except in certain (but not all) Protestant state churches (ie a small minority). It is first and foremost a covenant between the couple and Almighty God. You won't find any developed theological sense in a common dictionary. From a theological viewpoint contracts and covenants though superficially similar in form, are in substance very different: in a contract one exchanges goods and services ("this is mine and that is yours"). In a covenant one exchanges persons ("I am yours and you are mine", "I am your God and you are my people", etc). The use of 'covenant' in civil law (such as contract) is relatively recent, and then only via certain Protestants who explicitly aimed to deny any ecclesial jurisdiction over marriage.

The Church has never throughout its 2000 year history regarded the State as having any jurisdiction over marriage, whatever the State might say. Caesar (the State) can neither create not dissolve marriages, though of course it daily makes decrees in that regard.

That said, for Christians sex is only licit in marriage, and marriage is indissoluble. Furthermore, sex with a pre-pubescent is always sinful, even if the couple are legally (ie civilly) married. Of course we know there are many who do not accept this, or who behave contra natura.

[Arthur]

Dead serious. 3 years old for a girl and ten years old for a boy. It goes on to stipulate financial penalties for having sex with a minor which are identical to that of a girl accidentally injuring her hymen. And that it's acceptable from a virginity perspective because sex with a three year old is like poking someone in the eye - the eye waters over and over and over, ergo virginity regenerates. Oh and the kicker - that sex with a young boy is not considered a sexual act. It's plain looney if you ask me. Judaism will K.O most other religions in a nutjob boxing match...New to me. Reference?

[Ronjay]

The Bible does not mention Jesus being married but in the context of the times is is reasonable to assume that he was actually married.

What has that got to do with the price of eggs?

[DJ...]

New to me. Reference?

Tractate Kethuboth, laws of niddah and some comes from the teachings of various rabbis such as David Daiches and his work which is often taught to jewish kids - in trying to explain certain aspects of the talmud/mishrah/gemara. They're expected to overlook the naughty bits though.

EDIT: and that's ignoring the atrocious passages in Deuteronomy, Leviticus and Numbers...

[nightjar]

What has that got to do with the price of eggs?

Only a follow on from this - an argument from silence.

[Ronjay]

Only a follow on from this - an argument from silence.

Sorry, wasn't following, but all good now.:o

[porchrat]

Ah ,but it wasn't allowed by the state, so it is not marriage.;)
I'll give you that. In this particular instance it wasn't a legal marriage but that doesn't mean it can't be in other situations.

[porchrat]

This is already quite a digression. "Any real definition"? but that's exactly what's moot here. Yours is just one of many definitions, and primarily from a civil law point of view.
Which is the only one that matters as it is the only one that is fair.



<snipped on account of it being weird stuff that I don't care about>
Yeah... OK.



The Church has never throughout its 2000 year history regarded the State as having any jurisdiction over marriage, whatever the State might say. Caesar (the State) can neither create not dissolve marriages, though of course it daily makes decrees in that regard.
Phew lucky for us the church is utterly powerless when it comes to this sort of thing. Also lucky for us it just took the concept of marriage from cultures that had come before and doesn't have some sort of monopoly on marriage like it likes to think it does.



That said, for Christians sex is only licit in marriage, and marriage is indissoluble. Furthermore, sex with a pre-pubescent is always sinful, even if the couple are legally (ie civilly) married. Of course we know there are many who do not accept this, or who behave contra natura.
The bible doesn't say it is sinful. Where do you get this from?