Who is watching the Eurozone crisis developing?

antowan

antowan

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Sky news's coverage is excellent. Very interesting. What will Greece have to do?
 
I am not actively seeking out news about it...but I listen when they mention news about it on the radio etc. To be honest..this recession and crisis is getting real old real fast! Cant we just reboot the system or something and move on? :-)
 
They should stop bailing banks/governments etc out.

They need to crash before people will learn to not spend money they don't have(governments and business's included).

Maybe I just want to see the world burn, but I'm tired of this crap.
 
Not watching but went onto skynews.com to read about it. I had to laugh at this comment:

BREAKING NEWS 07/12/11 - Angela Merkel to announce a German referendum on whether to use more taxpayers money to save France, this only days after Greece left the Euro Land and went bankrupt dragging down French banks to the tune of over £50 billion with no Chinese bailout to the rescue.
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trying to keep an eye on it .... but really ... ocleroux is kinda right .... this is getting ridiculous with the markets moving up and then down .... with 2 plus years of meetings ... they still have no clue how to fix it ... other than throw more money (that they don't have) at it .... they make these financial systems so complex that all they are doing is hiding money/debt in different entities ... time to go back to the simple logic of ... spend what you have ... and stop trying to make huge debt for your children
 
lucifir said:
trying to keep an eye on it .... but really ... ocleroux is kinda right .... this is getting ridiculous with the markets moving up and then down .... with 2 plus years of meetings ... they still have no clue how to fix it ... other than throw more money (that they don't have) at it .... they make these financial systems so complex that all they are doing is hiding money/debt in different entities ... time to go back to the simple logic of ... spend what you have ... and stop trying to make huge debt for your children
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and abandon 'progressive' principles. European social democracies are built on the foundation of spending what you don't have. This is why the problem is taking so long to deal with.
 
What happens when the funds DO run dry? Lots of companies going bankrupt? Unemployment sky rockets? Social welfare system crashes? Famine? War?
 
Greece should quit or get thrown out.

The Euro model is flawed. It favors Germany and France. They get all the benefits but still can keep their manufacturing industries from building factories in other European countries, yet these other countries are risk rated on the same level as Germany and France. And now the Germans and French, who by the way where quite happy to lend billions to a country with neglible GDP in comparison, are now freeking out because the Greeks cant pay it back.

And they blame the Greeks for cooking the books to gain entry. Well, it doesnt say a lot for German and French financial judgement.

Something else about the German banks, which Im not sure everyone is aware of. Just before sub-prime went down the tubes, German banks where buying stacks of this toxic debt from American and British banks who realised they would soon be worth squat. Even while this was breaking in the press, they where still buying toxic debt.

I think at some point it will turn around. They wont need trillions from the Chinese. They would like trillions from Chinese, but the Eurozone will splutter onwards from one controvacy to the next. A lot of the EU economies are actually not doing too badly and are focusing on developing trade links with countries. I detect in the UK a major shift away from reliance on the EU.
 
This is like paying credit card debt with another credit card and that card with another.

They should just let things fall apart let the vultures have the scraps and start over.

I don't know why people or countries try to use debt to pay of debt just go back to basics and start over...

Thats how things work.
 
Fudzy said:
What happens when the funds DO run dry? Lots of companies going bankrupt? Unemployment sky rockets? Social welfare system crashes? Famine? War?
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start the printing presses ... but even that will only last so long ... as inflation will kick in and other countries will want to do the same ... so end up at the same place ..... but because of the complex system created by govs .... the man in the street will not be the wiser and will end up earning less in real terms than they did last year .... hence why gov controlled inflation figures are key .... they tell us inflation is 6% and we must just accept it ... why would your gov screw u??
 
The printing presses in the States and Europe are running day and night for a few years now! The fact that inflation is still fairly low has to do with their strong economies. If for example America or Europe complains about a weak economy, they mean a very different thing then the African economies mean :D
 
The issue of Greece is LOT more complex than the "American Problem" the sub-prime crisis was largely the greedy bankers shafting the spendthrift lazy american consumer and when both ran out of road they cried to their government for help.
The issue was then how should the American GOVERNMENT (elected by the people for the people etc etc) choose to side with: The People or The Capitalist economy (bankers) and they had to choose the latter as the former would've meant that the US Federal Goverment would have largely bankrolled private housing and in effect become the largest socialist state (in capital invested) in the world... which they cannot politically do..

Europe this time is VERY different.
The matter at hand is now Sovereign Debt or the GOVERNMENT(s) running out of money. Which is an entirely different ball-game since the issue at play is that these governments cannot refund themselves any longer since they have been living on cheap loans and expanding their expenses (like Greece) with cheap EURO debt, which was a mechanism made possible ONLY because of the EMU (European Monetary Union) and it's ability to raise a loan in another low risk country (like Germany) and spend those SAME EUROs in another completely different country. Either on much higher risk investments OR in the case of Greece, just spending it on lavish salaries and high standards of living without the (and this is important) COMPARATIVELY high productivity to pay back those loans relative to Germany for example.

And say what you like about the Germans, THEY WORK HARD and they alone are as productive as the whole entire rest of Europe combined. Which is WHY Europe has in effect asked Germany to bail out the rest of them WITH the condition that GERMANY will control the ESFS Facility (the "Bail-out fund" ) which is more like the US's Federal Reserve which basically puts about 4 Trillion EURO in Germany's hands and gives them stewardship of the assets being bailed out. OR plainly put, Germany has agreed to fund the bailout but only if they have control ... DOOM DOOM DOOM!

What's at stake NOW with Greece is: If Greece gets a "debt restructuring" where some or all of it's debts are essentially written off and all the European banks they loaned money from are basically told to forget about it, then this starts a precedent across Europe where the countries in the most trouble called the "PIIGS-B" countries (That is Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain and Belgium) are ALL in the same level of Sovereign debt crap and ALL of these would DEMAND the same "restructuring" as Greece or basically they leave the EU.

Leaving Europe once again divided into blocs: The PIIGS bloc on the Western Front, The Deutsche FEDERAL EUROPEAN UNION (DF-EU) on the eastern Front and from the North The Russians.
Perfect conditions for warfare over as the DF-EU Will control the oil pipelines leading to the PIIGS nations and France and ... well World Wars have broken out over less in the past.

Perhaps saner heads will prevail.

However that is what is REALLY at stake here and it's not as simple as "Bail them out or Kick them out"...
Not at all.
 
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Fudzy said:
What happens when the funds DO run dry? Lots of companies going bankrupt? Unemployment sky rockets? Social welfare system crashes? Famine? War?
Click to expand...

Someone is going to have to take the losses. The public in the EU will not allow another banking bailout. The UK has made it clear they wont be putting anymore funds into the Merkel/Sakozy bailout fund. So if the banks think the policitians are going to bail them out again, they are going to be dissapointed.

The banks accepted the Greek deal which means they take a loss of 50% on their Greek debt.

Social welfare systems wont crash. Just downscale.

Once these losses are done and the debt is cleared out of the system things will improve. In the meantime, riots, rapidly changing governments. low growth. Its happened before. No problem :D
 
EffKay said:
The issue of Greece is LOT more complex than the "American Problem" the sub-prime crisis was largely the greedy bankers shafting the spendthrift lazy american consumer and when both ran out of road they cried to their government for help.
The issue was then how should the American GOVERNMENT (elected by the people for the people etc etc) choose to side with: The People or The Capitalist economy (bankers) and they had to choose the latter as the former would've meant that the US Federal Goverment would have largely bankrolled private housing and in effect become the largest socialist state (in capital invested) in the world... which they cannot politically do..

Europe this time is VERY different.
The matter at hand is now Sovereign Debt or the GOVERNMENT(s) running out of money. Which is an entirely different ball-game since the issue at play is that these governments cannot refund themselves any longer since they have been living on cheap loans and expanding their expenses (like Greece) with cheap EURO debt, which was a mechanism made possible ONLY because of the EMU (European Monetary Union) and it's ability to raise a loan in another low risk country (like Germany) and spend those SAME EUROs in another completely different country. Either on much higher risk investments OR in the case of Greece, just spending it on lavish salaries and high standards of living without the (and this is important) COMPARATIVELY high productivity to pay back those loans relative to Germany for example.

And say what you like about the Germans, THEY WORK HARD and they alone are as productive as the whole entire rest of Europe combined. Which is WHY Europe has in effect asked Germany to bail out the rest of them WITH the condition that GERMANY will control the ESFS Facility (the "Bail-out fund" ) which is more like the US's Federal Reserve which basically puts about 4 Trillion EURO in Germany's hands and gives them stewardship of the assets being bailed out. OR plainly put, Germany has agreed to fund the bailout but only if they have control ... DOOM DOOM DOOM!

What's at stake NOW with Greece is: If Greece gets a "debt restructuring" where some or all of it's debts are essentially written off and all the European banks they loaned money from are basically told to forget about it, then this starts a precedent across Europe where the countries in the most trouble called the "PIIGS-B" countries (That is Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece, Spain and Belgium) are ALL in the same level of Sovereign debt crap and ALL of these would DEMAND the same "restructuring" as Greece or basically they leave the EU.

Leaving Europe once again divided into blocs: The PIIGS bloc on the Western Front, The Deutsche FEDERAL EUROPEAN UNION (DF-EU) on the eastern Front and from the North The Russians.
Perfect conditions for warfare over as the DF-EU Will control the oil pipelines leading to the PIIGS nations and France and ... well World Wars have broken out over less in the past.

Perhaps saner heads will prevail.

However that is what is REALLY at stake here and it's not as simple as "Bail them out or Kick them out"...
Not at all.
Click to expand...

There is a very strong chance that Greece will leave the EU. EU ministers have even said publically this week that if the Greeks dont accept the package, i.e. in the referendum they reject it, then they will be expelled from the Eurozone and the EU. Most Greeks are against the package. If the referendum goes ahead they will reject it, leaving no choice but for Greece to leave the EU.

As for war between EU countries. No chance. Europe is nothing like it was prior to WWII. If there is going to be violence, it will be public lynching of bankers.
 
EffKay said:
The issue of Greece is LOT more complex than the "American Problem" the sub-prime crisis was largely the greedy bankers shafting the spendthrift lazy american consumer and when both ran out of road they cried to their government for help.


And say what you like about the Germans, THEY WORK HARD and they alone are as productive as the whole entire rest of Europe combined. Which is WHY Europe has in effect asked Germany to bail out the rest of them WITH the condition that GERMANY will control the ESFS Facility (the "Bail-out fund" ) which is more like the US's Federal Reserve which basically puts about 4 Trillion EURO in Germany's hands and gives them stewardship of the assets being bailed out. OR plainly put, Germany has agreed to fund the bailout but only if they have control ... DOOM DOOM DOOM!
Click to expand...

Time to dispel another negative stereotype...

Americans work longer hours and get far less vacation time than the Germans.

Let's be blunt: If you like to take lots of vacation, the United States is not the place to work.

Besides a handful of national holidays, the typical American worker bee gets two or three precious weeks off out of a whole year to relax and see the world -- much less than what people in many other countries receive.

And even that amount of vacation often comes with strings attached.

Some U.S. companies don't like employees taking off more than one week at a time. Others expect them to be on call or check their e-mail even when they're lounging on the beach or taking a hike in the mountains.
Advertisement

"I really would like to take a real, decent vacation and travel somewhere, but it's almost impossible to take a long vacation and to be out of contact," said Don Brock, a software engineer who lives in suburban Washington.

"I dream of taking a cruise or a trip to Europe, but I can't imagine getting away for so long."

The running joke at Brock's company is that a vacation just means you work from somewhere else. So he takes one or two days off at a time and loses some vacation each year. Only 57% of U.S. workers use up all of the days they're entitled to, compared with 89% of workers in France, a recent Reuters/Ipsos poll found.

Brock's last long holiday was more than 10 years ago, when he took a two-week drive across the country.

'Americans work like robots'

It's a totally different story in other parts of the world.

Nancy Schimkat, an American who lives in Weinheim, Germany, said her German husband, an engineer, gets six weeks of paid vacation a year, plus national holidays -- the norm. His company makes sure he takes all of it.

It's typical for Germans to take off three consecutive weeks in August when "most of the country kind of closes down," Schimkat said. That's the time for big trips, perhaps to other parts of Europe, or to Australia or North America. Germans might also book a ski holiday in the winter and take a week off during Easter.

Schimkat's family back in the United States teases her that she's spoiled. But when she tells Germans that workers in the U.S. usually get two weeks of vacation a year, they cringe.

"They kind of have this idea that Americans work like robots and if that's the way they want to be, that's up to them. But they don't want to be like that," Schimkat said.
Click to expand...
Americans now work 50 percent more than do the Germans, French, and Italians. This was not the case in the early 1970s when the Western Europeans worked more than Americans. In this paper, I examine the role of taxes in accounting for the differences in labor supply across time and across countries, in particular, the effect of the marginal tax rate on labor income. The population of countries considered is that of the G-7 countries, which are the major advanced industrial countries. The surprising finding is that this marginal tax rate accounts for the predominance of the differences at points in time and the large change in relative labor supply over time with the exception of the Italian labor supply in the early 1970s. This finding has important implications for policy, in particular for making social security programs solvent.
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and they don't demand generous benefits at the expenses of others like the Germans. So much for lazy :rolleyes:
 
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Hitler did it all wrong.... you dont fight em.... you buy em ;)
 
ocleroux said:
Cant we just reboot the system or something and move on? :-)
Click to expand...

The economy appears to be broken.

Step 1) Ensure that the economy is properly plugged in and that all cables are secure.
Step 2) Turn the economy off, leave it for 5 minutes, and turn it back on again.
Step 3) Should the problem persist, please call our German customer support centre for further assistance.
 
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