A Muslim Asian woman could embarrass liberals into taking religion seriously

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Liberals don't care about principles as much as they care about who espouses them. Thus, if a lefty like Ken Livingstone makes a faux pas about gays, it's only a faux pas; were a Right-winger like Boris Johnson to make the same slip, he'd be hounded as homophobe. This kind of mindset has protected Johann Hari and others from liberal censure. But, it is hoped, it may also promote the extraordinary defence of faith made today by Baroness Warsi.

The Tory chairman, and first Asian woman minister, has let rip about secularists' campaign against religion. Baroness Warsi, who is leading a historic Government delegation to the Vatican, will tell Pope Benedict XVI that she shares his fears that Christians are being "marginalised". Britain is losing its habit of tolerance, and becoming a country “where, in the words of the Archbishop of Canterbury, faith is looked down as the hobby of 'oddities, foreigners and minorities’. Where religion is dismissed as an eccentricity because it’s infused with tradition.”

The brilliant Lady Warsi, who is changing her own daughter to a Christian school, speaks out for tolerance, and argues that it is only when Britons are sure of their own religious identity that they can respect other faiths.

Let a white Tory male minister claim that ignorance breeds prejudice, and the liberals would condemn him as elitist. Let the former Archbishop of Canterbury speak out, as Lord Carey did last week, about the rights of Christians, and liberals pooh-pooh his contribution as a dog-collared fuddy duddy's. But coming from an Asian Muslim woman, these words strike a chord.

Hurrah for the Baroness – her intervention will carry the weight others could never hope for. She might just succeed where the rest of us have failed: embarrassing liberals into taking religion seriously.

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Take religion seriously?

Its a fairy tale! Its got Zombie Jesus in it! Muhammed the Warlord spreads peace with the point of his sword! God made the Earth 10 thousand years ago and then put fossils into the ground to confuse us?

Come on!

And if you are going to post some anti liberal... thoughts... please post some that actually have good arguments in them, or interesting thoughts. There are some interesting things that Liberals get wrong, but this article fails to point them out HORRIBLY. Seriously, get some new reading material!

Ancalagon said:

Take religion seriously?

Its a fairy tale! Its got Zombie Jesus in it! Muhammed the Warlord spreads peace with the point of his sword! God made the Earth 10 thousand years ago and then put fossils into the ground to confuse us?

Come on!

And if you are going to post some anti liberal... thoughts... please post some that actually have good arguments in them, or interesting thoughts. There are some interesting things that Liberals get wrong, but this article fails to point them out HORRIBLY. Seriously, get some new reading material!

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The article has a very good point ie when Britons are sure of their own religious identity that they can respect other faiths. You clearly do not respect different faiths. Liberalism is about intolerance and that habit needs to be rooted out.

I dont get it Apache.. so are you for multiculturalism now? Cause I thought you were against it, now you seem to be clearly supporting it. Thats very liberal of you. Well done.

Apache said:

The article has a very good point ie when Britons are sure of their own religious identity that they can respect other faiths. You clearly do not respect different faiths. Liberalism is about intolerance and that habit needs to be rooted out.

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ba ha ha!

Who says religious identity matters? It is not religious identity that the Britons lack. Trust the Conservatives Fundamentalist Right to be arrogant enough to know the answers to everything.

Oh like you tolerate gay people so well? Please! What would you do if your son told you was gay? Would you support him? Or condemn him?

i have met a lot of nice ladies that kind of make you want to go to church.... I even feel bad admitting that I am an Athiest around them because they are so nice and sweet. If nice people like that can be christians then it must be real, right ?


LOL... still doesn't change that its all a pack of lies.

Posting articles all over the place without comment. Isn't that spamtrolling?

As if it could ever be taken seriously...

The article and its subject matter is pretty poor. Its about a women who doesn't like the fact that people can make up their own mind on things and wants everyone to idolize religion. Its quite hilarious how she talks about the intolerance of people who don't believe what she does and then tries to slander them.

Most people (liberals at least) don't care what religion you follow as long as you don't push it onto them.

Apache said:

The article has a very good point ie when Britons are sure of their own religious identity that they can respect other faiths. You clearly do not respect different faiths. Liberalism is about intolerance and that habit needs to be rooted out.

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I don't know where you get that but I don't think you understand what being liberal is.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel 101 by Apache.

SiriS said:

Posting articles all over the place without comment. Isn't that spamtrolling?

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Its current, its news. Case closed.

Its also a very interesting development.

Its so good to see Apache embracing multiculturalism and wanting everyone to be peaceful and respect each others beliefs, cultures and religions. I swear, those so liberal of him. I almost expect him to whip out a bong now and form a drum circle.

I never through Apache would be so liberal I was under the impression that he hated multiculturalism... and now here he is.... actively supporting it.

Also.... Apache... not sure if you know... but liberals in the UK have a different ideology to other liberals. They are more right wing and libertarian. The liberalism that I support.... is whats found in labour... not liberalism in the UK.

I am laughing my head off here... funniest thread of the week

Apache said:

Its current, its news. Case closed.

Its also a very interesting development.

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Get a blog. Ask Rza how.

stirred up a hornets nest here Apache. Personal attacks coming thick and fast and little or nothing on the actual topic.

Must have touched a nerve

Amazing how tolerant and understanding many liberals are of religious beliefs if espoused by none westerners. Remember Red Ken Livingston welcoming a homophobic radical nut Yusuf al-Qaradawi to London as an honoured guest.

Ken Livingstone defended his decision to share a platform with a homophobic Islamic preacher as he and his challenger, Boris Johnson, were neck and neck in the race for the capital yesterday.

Yusuf al-Qaradawi has described homosexuality as an "unnatural and evil practice" and said the Koran permitted wife-beating in certain circumstances.

The Qatar-based Egyptian cleric has also advocated the use of Palestinian children as suicide bombers and once claimed that Asian tsunami victims were punished by Allah because their countries were centres of perversion

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yusuf_al-Qaradawi

It's like their attitude to race. They have no problem if Samuel L Jackson and black Americans vote for a presidential candidate because he's black. But relentlessly condemn white people they accuse of voting for a candidate because he's white.

ghoti said:

Its so good to see Apache embracing multiculturalism and wanting everyone to be peaceful and respect each others beliefs, cultures and religions. I swear, those so liberal of him. I almost expect him to whip out a bong now and form a drum circle.

I never through Apache would be so liberal I was under the impression that he hated multiculturalism... and now here he is.... actively supporting it.

Also.... Apache... not sure if you know... well.. I know you dont, but liberals in the UK have a different ideology to other liberals. They are more right wing and libertarian. The liberalism that I support.... is whats found in labour... not liberalism in the UK.

I am laughing my head off here... funniest thread of the week

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You're quite an interesting chap.....

I am pretty sure every sane, constructive, rational and intellectual human will have the virtue of religio.

Here is why:

William Cavanaugh notes that the modern conception of religion was basically invented during the Renaissance and differs quite radically to that of western medieval and earlier times (more here). Wilfred Smith in his book notes that the rise of the modern view of religion coincides with a decline in the practice of religion in the west.

The modern concept of religion was basically invented to be contrasted against what was seen as secular activities of politics and economics. Religion according to this view is a private and voluntary matter to be contrasted with other public and political matters. Religion is seen as an organized system of propositions distinct from secular activities. Religion became to be seen as some sort of separate institution to that of other secular institutions. Evidence for this is the widespread notion of separation of church and the secular nation state.

This view of religion is very much different to that of the West during medieval Christendom as well as just about every other western civilization before the modern era. The term religion is derived from the Latin word “religio”. Religio was seen as some sort of serious obligation of a particular person. The obligations may vary and include things that are today considered to be secular obligations. For example, the religio of a person may be some kind of cultural or family ritual, or an oath, or a particular obligation to another person. In ancient Rome it was possible for intellectuals to practice religio (e.g. temple sacrifices) but not believe in the existence of gods.

Augustine thought the normal meaning of the term “religio” refers to the normal civic duties in human relationships among family and friends as well as in the political sphere. It also includes devotion to God or gods though it is not necessarily linked. During medieval times the term religio was rarely used and when it was it was used to refer to different monastic rules or orders on how to live life.

Aquinas treats religio under the virtue of justice. Aquinas did not view religio as some sort of genus with various species such as Christianity or Islam or Hinduism. To Aquinas religio is found everywhere that some sort of worship is found. It may be worshipping a leader of a nation, God or gods, ancestors or even a particular endeavour e.g. science. Aquinas did not view religio as a system of propositions or beliefs. It was also not seen as some sort of political ideology with institutional force. Religio was rather seen as a virtue. As a virtue, religio was a habit of a person towards moral excellence in whatever sphere the person is involved. It was not some separate activity to that of everyday politics and economics; it was something that permeated all spheres of life. It was a virtue such as prudence, justice and temperance. In politics, religio played an important role.

So if religion is defined as the pursuit of moral excellence and intellectual excellence in all spheres of life then it would be in line with the historical virtue of religio. And I don't think any rational person would decide that such a virtue is bad.

Alan said:

stirred up a hornets nest here Apache. Personal attacks coming thick and fast and little or nothing on the actual topic.

Must have touched a nerve

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I know, I'm quite taken aback. Very hectic and they are very intolerant.

Apache said:

Linkfaith is looked down as the hobby of 'oddities, foreigners and minorities’. Where religion is dismissed as an eccentricity because it’s infused with tradition.”

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Best place for faith.

Apache said:

Its current, its news. Case closed.

Its also a very interesting development.

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Its philosophical and its debatable so... its PD.

She said: [They] conversely, are trying to create equality by marginalising faith in society and think that the route to religious pluralism is by creating a path of faith-neutrality.”

“One of the arguments of the liberal elite is that faith and reason are incompatible. But they don’t realise, as the Holy Father has argued for many years, that faith and reason go hand in hand.”

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Someone needs to tell her that it's all fine and dandy to say it, but when the actions of faith and religion are so vehemently against reason, then intelligent people won't buy your BS.