Petition to STOP the Kings and Saru from ruining Super rugby

[Xmailer9]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition-to-STOP-the-Kings-and-Saru-from-ruining-Super-rugby/113520615439487?ref=tck&sk=wall


Go on, you know you want to :)

[bwana]

Will not be signing this.

[Mbuzi]

Facebook blocked at work, what's this about?

[Devill]

Will not be signing this.

Haha, Bwana I have not seen the page. Is it a "lets ban the Kings from ever playing rugby" page?

Or is it suggesting an alternative to just plugging the Kings into the S15 next year?

[Xmailer9]

This is to stop the inclusion of the Kings.

[BobsLawnService]

I'm guessing whoever made this up is either a Cheetahs or Lions supporter. Neither team deserves to be in Super Rugby given their histories of suckage so if one of them has to be dropped to give another team a shot then I'm more than happy.

Maybe we'll actually see some decent rugby from them now that losing will have consequences.

[MickeyD]

Request DENIED.

[MickeyD]

Bunch of wussies...

Season only starts tomorrow and they are already worried that their team will "win" the wooden spoon.

Pretty insecure fanbois....

[GreGorGy]

Bunch of wussies...

Season only starts tomorrow and they are already worried that their team will "win" the wooden spoon.

Pretty insecure fanbois....

Agreed - request denied. Of course, nobody has stopped to think what if the wooden spoon goes to Sharks, Bulls or Province.

[Rosaudio]

I'd like to see the Kings play in the S15.

[Mephisto_Helix]

Kings inclusion is the same as PdV, untried, untested and don't give a fskc who you piss off, as long as they get in. They have been tested nowhere but now get a shoe in out of the blue, pssssh. The process has been and will continue to be a bungle.

[MickeyD]

Kings inclusion is the same as PdV, untried, untested and don't give a fskc who you piss off, as long as they get in. They have been tested nowhere but now get a shoe in out of the blue, pssssh. The process has been and will continue to be a bungle.
How did The Sharks, Bulls, Lions, Stormers and Cheetahs EARN their RIGHT to play S15?

[SukkaFoo]

Agreed - request denied. Of course, nobody has stopped to think what if the wooden spoon goes to Sharks, Bulls or Province.

Haha, should we put money on it?

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[Devill]

How did The Sharks, Bulls, Lions, Stormers and Cheetahs EARN their RIGHT to play S15?

By creating unions? Building things, contract those player like people, etc etc... think Gauteng north (northen transvaal back then) did that about 70 years ago.... then the won a couple of currie cups, an absa cup, a couple of vodacom cups, beat the kings with a c - side etc etc.

Sure the other unions also have a similiar story to tell.

What have the Kings done?

I just want to make it clear before someone comes running at me shouting "Kings hater! Agent!".

I want to see the king play, but not at the expense of someone that will beat them every day of the week.

[Mephisto_Helix]

By creating unions? Building things, contract those player like people, etc etc... think Gauteng north (northen transvaal back then) did that about 70 years ago.... then the won a couple of currie cups, an absa cup, a couple of vodacom cups, beat the kings with a c - side etc etc.

Sure the other unions also have a similiar story to tell.

What have the Kings done?

I just want to make it clear before someone comes running at me shouting "Kings hater! Agent!".

I want to see the king play, but not at the expense of someone that will beat them every day of the week.

Spot on ...... wtf have the Kings done apart from using less savory means to show themselves off?

[BobsLawnService]

Spot on ...... wtf have the Kings done apart from using less savory means to show themselves off?

What have the Cheetahs and Lions done in Super Rugby to prove that they belong there after the last five years?

[Mephisto_Helix]

Not much but they have been established: done Vodacom Cup, done Currie Cup, played Super10/12/14/15 ....... you're in such a state that you're not seeing what we're talking about.

[MickeyD]

Not much but they have been established: done Vodacom Cup, done Currie Cup, played Super10/12/14/15 ....... you're in such a state that you're not seeing what we're talking about.

EP also played Super 10.....

[Devill]

EP also played Super 10.....

1994 played 4...lost 4?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_10_%28Southern_Hemisphere_competition%29

Come on they are not even winning the first division comp....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Elephants

[Vercogen]

Come on they are not even winning the first division comp....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Elephants

^^ this

[phoneJunky]

nobody has stopped to think what if the wooden spoon goes to Sharks, Bulls or Province.

Blasphemy!

[Xmailer9]

I don't understand you people. SARU made a political promise that looks now, that they cannot keep. Now they are trying everything to keep their promise, which was made through political pressure.

It's purely a political thing. Nothing to do with the benefit of the game. I for one in actual fact, hope they get included just for the world to see how worthless they really are. SARU has once again shown how dissapointing they are in their decision making.

[phoneJunky]

I don't understand you people. SARU made a political promise that looks now, that they cannot keep. Now they are trying everything to keep their promise, which was made through political pressure.

It's purely a political thing. Nothing to do with the benefit of the game. I for one in actual fact, hope they get included just for the world to see how worthless they really are. SARU has once again shown how dissapointing they are in their decision making.

I don't think they will be less disappointing than the wooden spooners in any case. Those players will probably all move to the Kings to keep playing at this level.

[Devill]

I don't think they will be less disappointing than the wooden spooners in any case. Those players will probably all move to the Kings to keep playing at this level.

It is not as easy as that.

I wonder how SARU will drop the lions or cheetahs if they end 6th and 7th......

[Budza]

I don't understand you people. SARU made a political promise that looks now, that they cannot keep. Now they are trying everything to keep their promise, which was made through political pressure.

It's purely a political thing. Nothing to do with the benefit of the game. I for one in actual fact, hope they get included just for the world to see how worthless they really are. SARU has once again shown how dissapointing they are in their decision making.

True. Just like Bafana. Let them expose themselves for what they are: useless. Should show the wonderful powers of transformation too, falling flat on its face as always.

Politicisation of sport (anything, really) FTL. :(

[SukkaFoo]

It is not as easy as that.

I wonder how SARU will drop the lions or cheetahs if they end 6th and 7th......

We should take a bet that one of either the lions or cheetahs are going to finish in the bottom five. History has a way of repeating itself... But if we don't have a team in the bottom five then hey, SA rugby has a ton of depth, which can only bode well for the kings.

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[phoneJunky]

It is not as easy as that.

I wonder how SARU will drop the lions or cheetahs if they end 6th and 7th......

I'm a Stormers/WP supporter and am confidant it won't be us leaving, so it makes it easier for me to accept this. I know it is difficult to let go of a team that has so much heritage as any of our teams, but I am pretty sure that this is going to happen in our not to distant future in anycase.

I just hope it is not my team. And it is also especially difficult because every one love the Cheetahs and the Lions did so well and the other three has so much supporters etc. But we must remember that the EC produces a lot of players that play in the S15 and they don't have any other option but to join the other Franchises in the other provinces which is probably unfair to EC in general.

MickeyD had various posts on the depth EC rugby has and how many clubs they have etc. SANZAR does not want to include another team and the SK is going to be in there if we like it or not. We will just have to make the best of a bad situation.

[Devill]

I'm a Stormers/WP supporter and am confidant it won't be us leaving, so it makes it easier for me to accept this. I know it is difficult to let go of a team that has so much heritage as any of our teams, but I am pretty sure that this is going to happen in our not to distant future in anycase.

I just hope it is not my team. And it is also especially difficult because every one love the Cheetahs and the Lions did so well and the other three has so much supporters etc. But we must remember that the EC produces a lot of players that play in the S15 and they don't have any other option but to join the other Franchises in the other provinces which is probably unfair to EC in general.

MickeyD had various posts on the depth EC rugby has and how many clubs they have etc. SANZAR does not want to include another team and the SK is going to be in there if we like it or not. We will just have to make the best of a bad situation.

I am all for the Kings playing... just not at the expense of someone else that is better.

If they have to play I can almost see the Lions and Bulls becoming one for the Super Series.

[phoneJunky]

If they have to play I can almost see the Lions and Bulls becoming one for the Super Series.

The fact that they only want one team from a province in national competitions seems that this will be very likely

[Devill]

The fact that they only want one team from a province in national competitions seems that this will be very likely

Haha, I will just say WOW as the player depth that the Bullions will have will be amazing. Doubt if they will be able to afford all the players thought.

[BobsLawnService]

you're in such a state that you're not seeing what we're talking about.

Not worked up at all. The Spears may not have a history of playing in Super Rugby but The Lions and Cheetahs have and they've proven that they don't belong due to their pathetic performance. Let us give the Spears a shot now.

[Devill]

Not worked up at all. The Spears may not have a history of playing in Super Rugby but The Lions and Cheetahs have and they've proven that they don't belong due to their pathetic performance. Let us give the Spears a shot now.

Imo not untill the can at least win the 1st division.... That or they must show that they can at least make the semis in the CC.

[SukkaFoo]

Imo not untill the can at least win the 1st division.... That or they must show that they can at least make the semis in the CC.

They won the first division in 2010, or us it the B division, not sure...


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[sand_man]

Not worked up at all. The Spears may not have a history of playing in Super Rugby but The Lions and Cheetahs have and they've proven that they don't belong due to their pathetic performance. Let us give the Spears a shot now.

If the Kings were consistently playing against and beating the Lions and Cheetahs etc you might have an argument... Unfortunately their inclusion is purely political.

The sad part is the R10m being spent to bolster their ranks could have far greater impact if it were spent on upgrading schools infrastructure in the Eastern Cape.

If anything there should be less SA teams competing in this competition, not more.

[Devill]

They won the first division in 2010, or us it the B division, not sure...
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Here is my post about htem in the S10 series and then have a look at their record in the past.


1994 played 4...lost 4?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_10_%28Southern_Hemisphere_competition%29

Come on they are not even winning the first division comp....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mighty_Elephants

It does seem to be the case. 2010 first division champs.

But have a look at the Vodacom cup record :o ... Seriously....

[MickeyD]

Not worked up at all. The Spears may not have a history of playing in Super Rugby but The Lions and Cheetahs have and they've proven that they don't belong due to their pathetic performance. Let us give the Spears a shot now.
Fighting talk :D

[BobsLawnService]

Imo not untill the can at least win the 1st division.... That or they must show that they can at least make the semis in the CC.

Currie Cup means nothing. The Lions and Cheetahs are top 4 and they come bottom two in Super Rugby every year.

[sand_man]

Currie Cup means nothing. The Lions and Cheetahs are top 4 and they come bottom two in Super Rugby every year.

So then what hope do the Kings have?

[Devill]

Currie Cup means nothing. The Lions and Cheetahs are top 4 and they come bottom two in Super Rugby every year.

:erm: If you can not even get into the CC how do you want to play super rugby? Please explain. Did you see the Kings beat up the Bulls C team? Or did you perhaps watch that game where they really looked like beating the sharks? Or perhaps how well their "weakend" team did against the Lions? I mean 88 - 0 is a very close margin.

[bwana]

Catch22. How's a first division team going to get into the Premier Division, especially now that it's been reduced to six teams, without good players? What good players want to play for a first division team that isn't likely to get promoted? The kings now have money and Super Rugby to attract good players so stop focusing on the team they have now cos it aint gonna be the one they're fielding in 2013.

And yes, I do have a vested interest in Super Rugby coming to PE. :D

[Devill]

Catch22. How's a first division team going to get into the Premier Division, especially now that it's been reduced to six teams, without good players? What good players want to play for a first division team that isn't likely to get promoted? The kings now have money and Super Rugby to attract good players so stop focusing on the team they have now cos it aint gonna be the one they're fielding in 2013.

And yes, I do have a vested interest in Super Rugby coming to PE. :D

I understand this. But why not give them a guaranteed 4 years in the CC. If they can get into the Semis twice in the four years promote them to the Super series. And yes this should have been done 6 years ago.

But time will tell. I hope we can convince SANZAR to make it S16.

[SinghDude]

Kings can be the Man City of local rugby.

Enough sponsors and a wad of cash can lure the best crop of players.....

Short term they could hence surprise and do well..... ( if they do manage to lure classy players )


IMO it aint half bad to have a single team per province for rugby.

[sand_man]

Enough sponsors and a wad of cash can lure the best crop of players.....

But doesn't that defeat the purpose of their inception?

[SinghDude]

But doesn't that defeat the purpose of their inception?

It will keep the politicians and administrators quiet.

[BobsLawnService]

:erm: If you can not even get into the CC how do you want to play super rugby? Please explain. Did you see the Kings beat up the Bulls C team? Or did you perhaps watch that game where they really looked like beating the sharks? Or perhaps how well their "weakend" team did against the Lions? I mean 88 - 0 is a very close margin.

Wooden spoon is wooden spoon.

[elysian]

Could they do worse than the Bulls' 2002 season (0 wins)? In fact, seasons 1999-2002 Bulls won 4 games out of 44! Under Heyneke Meyer in '99 and '02. Kings lost all their good players to other unions. They are the best SA team that has zero participation in Super Rugby (or part of). Even 1st div Boland are part of SR (in 'catchment' area). I know a few EC rugby supporters who refuse to support the Sharks, as they snubbed EP and Border, who were once part of their franchise - so they say.

Definitely a catch 22 as mentioned before. No high quality players because of lack of exposure, yet no exposure as all the other franchises have such a head start.

I say make a plan to put them in.

[Devill]

Wooden spoon is wooden spoon.

Wow that explained a lot.

So now we need to kick another province out and have them lose the income and players?

:wtf:


Could they do worse than the Bulls' 2002 season (0 wins)? In fact, seasons 1999-2002 Bulls won 4 games out of 44! Under Heyneke Meyer in '99 and '02. Kings lost all their good players to other unions. They are the best SA team that has zero participation in Super Rugby (or part of). Even 1st div Boland are part of SR (in 'catchment' area). I know a few EC rugby supporters who refuse to support the Sharks, as they snubbed EP and Border, who were once part of their franchise - so they say.

Definitely a catch 22 as mentioned before. No high quality players because of lack of exposure, yet no exposure as all the other franchises have such a head start.

I say make a plan to put them in.

The bulls were a champoin side and had three to four years of terrible management but they would always bounch back. The EP are not even winning the comps they are playing in atm.

I agree that there must be a plan made to get them playing but lets not do it half arsed because of politics.

I still think give them four year in the CC and help them financially to keep players. Then let them play Super Rugby.

[yaeger]

Really? Look more closely at the players at the top and which school they are from. You will be surprised by how many come from the Border region.

[Mephisto_Helix]

Going by that logic, all games involving the region should have been won and they would be finishing top in any comps they are involved in ......... but they're not, so it means jacksh*t.

[yaeger]

Lol, no point in even trying to argue.

[BobsLawnService]

Wow that explained a lot.

So now we need to kick another province out and have them lose the income and players?

:wtf:


The fact that in the amount of time that they have had neither the Lions nor the Cheetah have stepped up means that it's an easy decision to make. If either team had made the playoffs none of us would be having this discussion.

The Lions and Cheetahs loafed around and didn't even make an effort to play decent rugby while cashing in the paycheques, well it's come back to bite them in the butt. Why should the Kings be forced to sit on the sidelines while those two bigger unions get money for nothing?

[elysian]

So now we need to kick another province out and have them lose the income and players?

:wtf:


The Cats were competitive and made a few playoffs, but the Cheetahs weren't happy as that they weren't getting enough cash and exposure, so a plan was made to get them their own team, which is pretty uncompetitive and they keep losing their players to the more successful franchises. Exact situation now with the Kings.

EP played Super rugby even before WP could make it!



The EP are not even winning the comps they are playing in atm.


They won the IRB Nations cup last year, beating 2 RWC international teams.

[VJB 449]

Not worked up at all. The Spears may not have a history of playing in Super Rugby but The Lions and Cheetahs have and they've proven that they don't belong due to their pathetic performance. Let us give the Spears a shot now.

AA in rugby. Not at this level, let them prove themselves first in the CC.

[VJB 449]

Wooden spoon is wooden spoon.

By that logic Griekwas should be playing super rugby. Not a bunch of political opportunists from the Eastern Cape.

[bwana]

AA in rugby. Not at this level, let them prove themselves first in the CC.How would you propose they do that? The southern kings are made up of three separate CC (first div) teams - EP Kings, Border Bulldogs, and the SWD Eagles.

[VJB 449]

How would you propose they do that? The southern kings are made up of three separate CC (first div) teams - EP Kings, Border Bulldogs, and the SWD Eagles.

If the teams from that region are not feasible on their own (even at CC level) combine them as one team for CC purposes. On their own they cannot even win the Vodacom Cup or get to the premier division.

[bwana]

If the teams from that region are not feasible on their own (even at CC level) combine them as one team for CC purposes. On their own they cannot even win the Vodacom Cup or get to the premier division.And then essentially deny two of the three teams entrance into the CC?

[VJB 449]

And then essentially deny two of the three teams entrance into the CC?

Seems they want have their cake and eat it too. On merit they don't deserve it, as a combined team it seems they will still not deserve it too (88 zero to the Lions). IMO forcing them in because of the Watson's political connections is a giant insult to the game of rugby. One thing that we all should realise by now is that quick fixes don't work.

[SukkaFoo]

One thing that we all should realise by now is that quick fixes don't work.

What so the slow approach taken with the lions and cheetahs has worked? Let's give them another decade or two to be certain that they can't cut it in super rugby?


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[Devill]

The fact that in the amount of time that they have had neither the Lions nor the Cheetah have stepped up means that it's an easy decision to make. If either team had made the playoffs none of us would be having this discussion.

Maybe true but they will still beat the Kings any day of the week.... How do you justify taking someone out of a 100m race that is running 9.90 and replacing them with someone running 10.10 because 9.90 will never win you a top three spot...



The Lions and Cheetahs loafed around and didn't even make an effort to play decent rugby while cashing in the paycheques, well it's come back to bite them in the butt. Why should the Kings be forced to sit on the sidelines while those two bigger unions get money for nothing?

Because they can not beat either of the teams as things stand.


The Cats were competitive and made a few playoffs, but the Cheetahs weren't happy as that they weren't getting enough cash and exposure, so a plan was made to get them their own team, which is pretty uncompetitive and they keep losing their players to the more successful franchises. Exact situation now with the Kings.


Sorry but I can just for the life of me not see the Kings beating any NZ team and / or SA team as things are.



EP played Super rugby even before WP could make it!


They lost 4 out of 4. and if they had this Glorious past performances why are they not a "stronger" force in SA rugby today?



They won the IRB Nations cup last year, beating 2 RWC international teams.

Portugal and....?

Grey College's 1st team could beat them...


What so the slow approach taken with the lions and cheetahs has worked? Let's give them another decade or two to be certain that they can't cut it in super rugby?


If as much money was thrown at the cheetahs as at the Kings then I am sure they could have been a top team by now.

[elysian]

Sorry but I can just for the life of me not see the Kings beating any NZ team and / or SA team as things are.

Yeah, that's what people said about the Bulls in '02. Will definitely be quite something for them to win.



They lost 4 out of 4. and if they had this Glorious past performances why are they not a "stronger" force in SA rugby today?

Yes, but they made it because they ended 3rd in the Currie Cup the previous season. N Transvaal and WP didn't even get in. Not sure what happened to them, they probably lost players.



Portugal and....?

Oh yes, I forgot that Portugal played RWC. So therefore the Kings beat 3 RWC teams last year.

:)

[MickeyD]

Grey College's 1st team could beat them...
Kakstorie en jy weet dit.

[Devill]

Yeah, that's what people said about the Bulls in '02. Will definitely be quite something for them to win.


But the Bulls have a proven track record. A couple of bad years for a Franchise like that does not = failure.

Please point me to that great EP track record again. :p



Yes, but they made it because they ended 3rd in the Currie Cup the previous season. N Transvaal and WP didn't even get in. Not sure what happened to them, they probably lost players.


See and that is the difference, the Bulls had a bad four years or so but FIXED it. The EP on the other hand..... why are they not a "SA Powerhouse" again?



Oh yes, I forgot that Portugal played RWC. So therefore the Kings beat 3 RWC teams last year.
:)

Who are the other two?


Kakstorie en jy weet dit.

A bulls / sharks C- team should be able to beat them.

[SukkaFoo]

I have said it before, and never got a solid answer, but please explain to me how any teams are expected to win promotion. In 2009 the pumas were promoted, so I concede it can be done, but without an automatic promotion relegation as is done in the English premier league football, the chips are stacked massively against the side side challenging for promotion. no matter how much money you have, so simply won't attract top quality players to the first division. If someone can give me an example of a current springbok playing in the first division I'll concede.

And if we argue that EP then deserve an automatic berth in Currie cup, then what us the difference? Chances are, that without a push, EP will never make it into super 15 on their own, ever. So one of the bigger cities in the country is deprived of world class rugby and the region as a whole gives up on development. Personally, I don't think the lions or the cheetahs deserve their spot, and have not done anything meaningful to demonstrate that they do. If I was as bad at my job as their record in super 15, I would have been fired ages ago.

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[sand_man]

I have said it before, and never got a solid answer, but please explain to me how any teams are expected to win promotion. In 2009 the pumas were promoted, so I concede it can be done, but without an automatic promotion relegation as is done in the English premier league football, the chips are stacked massively against the side side challenging for promotion. no matter how much money you have, so simply won't attract top quality players to the first division. If someone can give me an example of a current springbok playing in the first division I'll concede.

And if we argue that EP then deserve an automatic berth in Currie cup, then what us the difference? Chances are, that without a push, EP will never make it into super 15 on their own, ever. So one of the bigger cities in the country is deprived of world class rugby and the region as a whole gives up on development. Personally, I don't think the lions or the cheetahs deserve their spot, and have not done anything meaningful to demonstrate that they do. If I was as bad at my job as their record in super 15, I would have been fired ages ago.

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There is a promotion/relegation process in place in the CC afaik.

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/CurrieCup/Eagles-Kings-Currie-Cup-hopes-20100926

I don't think it's so much a question of what the Lions and Cheetahs have done to deserve their spots in the Super 15 but more a question of what have the Southern Kings done to deserve theirs.

Of the 5 SA teams currently competing in the Super 15 probably only 3, the Bulls, Stormers and Sharks are worthy competitors.

The problem lies in the strength and depth of SA rugby. We not nearly as good as we think we are. A solution to this issue is not promoting the Southern Kings to the competition. All it's likely to do is further dilute our impact on the competition...

[Devill]

I have said it before, and never got a solid answer, but please explain to me how any teams are expected to win promotion. In 2009 the pumas were promoted, so I concede it can be done, but without an automatic promotion relegation as is done in the English premier league football, the chips are stacked massively against the side side challenging for promotion. no matter how much money you have, so simply won't attract top quality players to the first division. If someone can give me an example of a current springbok playing in the first division I'll concede.

And if we argue that EP then deserve an automatic berth in Currie cup, then what us the difference? Chances are, that without a push, EP will never make it into super 15 on their own, ever. So one of the bigger cities in the country is deprived of world class rugby and the region as a whole gives up on development. Personally, I don't think the lions or the cheetahs deserve their spot, and have not done anything meaningful to demonstrate that they do. If I was as bad at my job as their record in super 15, I would have been fired ages ago.

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That is why I suggested the Kings be kept in the CC for four years, no matter what. In four year if they have accomplished goals set out (finish ahead of the Lions / cheetahs / bulls / WP / Sharks for any two of the four years).

Also you are worried that "one of the largest cities" in SA does not have a team, but what will happen when the cheetahs or lions lose out?! :erm: Or is Bloem / Johannesburg not a major City?

The EP imo fscked up their own structures, so why should the other franchises pay?

I am all for the Kings playing Super Rugby but not at the expense of another, better team.

on a side note if the Bulls and the Lions merge I will not be too unhappy :p:D

[SukkaFoo]

Ja, we've seen that movie before. How precisely are they going to get to the Currie cup, see my comments on securing decent players above. the reality is, the lions don't deserve their place, they should have been relegated in 2006, but unfortunately all did not go according to plan, the cheetahs finished ahead of them in the Currie cup, and SARU reneged on their contracts. But I guess fortunately for lions and cheetahs fans, SARU has proven that they are above the law and don't have to honour their agreements.

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[Devill]

Ja, we've seen that movie before. How precisely are they going to get to the Currie cup, see my comments on securing decent players above. the reality is, the lions don't deserve their place, they should have been relegated in 2006, but unfortunately all did not go according to plan, the cheetahs finished ahead of them in the Currie cup, and SARU reneged on their contracts. But I guess fortunately for lions and cheetahs fans, SARU has proven that they are above the law and don't have to honour their agreements.

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Please do me a personal favour and READ. If the Kings have a guaranteed four years in the CC, plus the financial backing that they are currently enjoying they should at least be able to end in the top 5 for two out of the three years.

Also thank you for answering my question :)

[SukkaFoo]

Please do me a personal favour and READ. If the Kings have a guaranteed four years in the CC, plus the financial backing that they are currently enjoying they should at least be able to end in the top 5 for two out of the three years.

Also thank you for answering my question :)

Do some research, Hoskins came into power on the back of this same sentiment. In spite of a binding agreement that the spears be included in the super 15, so I guess at the very least that's what they have done to deserve it. Oh, and SARU then cut off their support for the franchise again going against their legal agreement, do it was SARU who pretty much fscked up the structures of EP rugby, by not paying salaries and the like.

Likewise, you didn't answer my question, how, without attracting players can they even win promotion to the Currie cup?

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[Devill]

Do some research, Hoskins came into power on the back of this same sentiment. In spite of a binding agreement that the spears be included in the super 15, so I guess at the very least that's what they have done to deserve it. Oh, and SARU then cut off their support for the franchise again going against their legal agreement, do it was SARU who pretty much fscked up the structures of EP rugby, by not paying salaries and the like.


:erm: But how did the EP fall from grace in the first place?

You want to oust the Lions because they have fallen from grace but so did the EP. :wtf:

How do you now want the weaker of the two who fscked up to be booted out?



Likewise, you didn't answer my question, how, without attracting players can they even win promotion to the Currie cup?

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I did answer you. I said GIVE the Kings a guaranteed four years of CC rugby.

[SukkaFoo]

I did answer you. I said GIVE the Kings a guaranteed four years of CC rugby.

And how do you propose doing that? Drop one of the current 6? Same same.


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[bwana]

I did answer you. I said GIVE the Kings a guaranteed four years of CC rugby.
But how? Three teams make up the Southern Kings.

[Devill]

And how do you propose doing that? Drop one of the current 6? Same same.

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No. Add the Southern Kings as a 7th team. There is no SANZAR to appeal to, SARU will be able to make this happen a lot easier.


But how? Three teams make up the Southern Kings.

Yes. If the Southern Kings want to run with the big dogs they should not piss like puppies.

The Southern Kings get first pick on their group of 30 players to contest the CC.

The EP kings, Border Bulldogs and the SWD Eagles must either unite or fsck off.

The Bulldogs and SWD stay in the first division as well as the EP kings if they have a large enough group left to contest in the first division.

Why must the whole world bend for EP rugby?!

[SukkaFoo]

Why must the whole world bend for EP rugby?!

Hyperbole much?

Just to recap on the history somewhat... the spears were due to join when the competition was expanded to 14. They weren't going to replace any other teams, pretty much as you have said should happen now. Then the Cats decided to split... that decision had nothing to do with the kings. So we have a situation where either the Lions or the Cheetahs (who as pointed out numerous times are k@k) probably didn't earn their place either. At the time, the Spears were to be promoted to CC so that they could have at least one season to get up to speed.

So, based on this... am I correct then in saying that you are effectively punishing the Kings, for poor management at the provincial level prior to 2005? We don't deserve to be in at the expense of another team, who also don't deserve to be there, for sins of our fathers... come on...

[Re83L]

How about this:

We just allow Cheeky and Pukey to run out onto the field holding the Springbok captain's hands before every test. A kind of reach-for-a-dream thing.

Did you guys know SARU pumped R10m into the Kings in 2010 already?
That's the Cheetahs' entire team's salaries for two years! And that's without their part of broadcast rights, ticket sales etc etc.
the Kings is just another cash-cow for the Watsons.

[bwana]

How about this:

We just allow Cheeky and Pukey to run out onto the field holding the Springbok captain's hands before every test. A kind of reach-for-a-dream thing.

Did you guys know SARU pumped R10m into the Kings in 2010 already?
That's the Cheetahs' entire team's salaries for two years! And that's without their part of broadcast rights, ticket sales etc etc.
the Kings is just another cash-cow for the Watsons.Source? I know that the NMB municipality has pledged R10million from their own coffers for Super Rugby but I hadn't heard of SARU matching it.

[Re83L]

So, based on this... am I correct then in saying that you are effectively punishing the Kings, for poor management at the provincial level prior to 2005? We don't deserve to be in at the expense of another team, who also don't deserve to be there, for sins of our fathers... come on...

Your argument doesn't make sense.

The ONLY reason a team should be included/excluded from the S15, should be its ability to produce good rugby players.
70% of the good rugby talent in SA comes from either Bloem (Grey), or the Boland (Paul Roos, Paarl Boys, Paarl Gim).

SARU should actually handle the entire setup like the NZ'ers does, by allocating every team the same amount of money.
Why should the Cheetahs have a budget of R3m per year while the Bulls and Sharks have R30m+ ?

If teams had the means to hold onto their own players, WP would be the strongest union in SA, followed by the Cheetahs, followed by the Bulls/Kings, followed by the Lions, with the Sharks' soutie-softies making up the rear.

Of course the union with the most money will attract the best players / coaching.
Don't kick the Lions or Cheetahs out of S15 because they're struggling in the comp, kick out the union that isn't producing talent.

[Re83L]

Source? I know that the NMB municipality has pledged R10million from their own coffers for Super Rugby but I hadn't heard of SARU matching it.

My brother-in-law's dad is the coach of the SWD Eagles.
I don't think this was widely publicized. How do you think the Kings were suddenly able to offer Barend Pieterse, Rory Duncan, Jaco Engels etc etc the big contracts needed to attract them?

And if the NMB municipality pledged the money themselves, where did they get the money already spent?

[Devill]

Hyperbole much?


Sorry, why must the southern Hemp. bend over backwards for the kings?



Just to recap on the history somewhat... the spears were due to join when the competition was expanded to 14. They weren't going to replace any other teams, pretty much as you have said should happen now. Then the Cats decided to split... that decision had nothing to do with the kings. So we have a situation where either the Lions or the Cheetahs (who as pointed out numerous times are k@k) probably didn't earn their place either. At the time, the Spears were to be promoted to CC so that they could have at least one season to get up to speed.


I would just like to point out that the Cheetahs and Lions are still better than the Southern Kings imo.



So, based on this... am I correct then in saying that you are effectively punishing the Kings, for poor management at the provincial level prior to 2005? We don't deserve to be in at the expense of another team, who also don't deserve to be there, for sins of our fathers... come on...

:erm: Yes. You fsck up. You suffer. The lions have fscked up, they are suffering for it.


How about this:

We just allow Cheeky and Pukey to run out onto the field holding the Springbok captain's hands before every test. A kind of reach-for-a-dream thing.

Did you guys know SARU pumped R10m into the Kings in 2010 already?
That's the Cheetahs' entire team's salaries for two years! And that's without their part of broadcast rights, ticket sales etc etc.
the Kings is just another cash-cow for the Watsons.

LOL :D

I really laughed at that picture :D

I think the Southern Kings has a right to play, I just feel they need to show that they can make it in the CC first.

[sand_man]

I think the Southern Kings has a right to play, I just feel they need to show that they can make it in the CC first.

End of story, as it should be...

[Devill]

End of story, as it should be...

Yes, I would like to see them guaranteed a spot in the CC for at least four years though, preferably five years and then if they show they are a force after the first two year, feel free to relegte one of the weaker teams from the S15/S16/SXX

[sand_man]

What worries me is we've seen SWD and Border Bulldogs compete in the CC recently and they were nowhere... Eastern Cape rugby doesn't have the talent or the resources, period...

Sorry but that's the truth.

They produce great characters in bwana and MickeyD though :p

[Devill]

What worries me is we've seen SWD and Border Bulldogs compete in the CC recently and they were nowhere... Eastern Cape rugby doesn't have the talent or the resources, period...

Sorry but that's the truth.

They produce great characters in bwana and MickeyD though :p

Haha, that is why I want the Southern Kings to play in the CC. That is the bulldogs, SWD and EP kings.

I am sure together they could field a team that will win some games.

[cr@zydude]

Yes, I would like to see them guaranteed a spot in the CC for at least four years though, preferably five years and then if they show they are a force after the first two year, feel free to relegte one of the weaker teams from the S15/S16/SXX

NZ uses a similair franchise system to SA, with unions linked to franchises, though players are centrally contracted. Otago, the main union in the Highlanders' franchise, played in the ITM Cup Championship (2nd tier). Thus, there is at least some precedent for a team to play 2nd tier domestic rugby and Super Rugby. Also, as I've said before, Aus has no domestic rugby, and have added 3 teams since 1996.

[Devill]

NZ uses a similair franchise system to SA, with unions linked to franchises, though players are centrally contracted. Otago, the main union in the Highlanders' franchise, played in the ITM Cup Championship (2nd tier).
Thus, there is at least some precedent for a team to play 2nd tier domestic rugby and Super Rugby.


How did North Otago and Southland rugby union do while Otago was playing second tier?



Also, as I've said before, Aus has no domestic rugby, and have added 3 teams since 1996.

Lol, but he Aussies also have proper CLUB rugby with a "franchise" governing a geographical area's rugby.

I really do not think this and what is happening with the Southern Kings is remotely the same.

[porchrat]

ROFL Kings in Super Rugby. What a joke.

[ghoti]

Hooray, the Kings are in. Now I can finally care about what happens in the series.

EC has very good rugby schools and consistently pushes out world class (many world champions from the EC) sports players (that get bought up by the other provinces). The thing that hurts EC rugby the most is not the lack of talent. I recon we lose a lot of our talent to the other provinces when the kids go to university. We have no decent university here with decent sports facilities. Thats our biggest problem.

Other than that we have the 2nd oldest rugby club in the country and some of the best rugby schools in the country.

[cr@zydude]

How did North Otago and Southland rugby union do while Otago was playing second tier?



Lol, but he Aussies also have proper CLUB rugby with a "franchise" governing a geographical area's rugby.

I really do not think this and what is happening with the Southern Kings is remotely the same.

Southland finished 7th in the Premiership and were automatically relegated. North Otago came 2nd in the Heartland Championship, the 3rd teir. They failed to win promtion to the 2nd tier.

I agree that club rugby in SA has a low profile, but that isn't the Southern Kings' fault.


Hooray, the Kings are in. Now I can finally care about what happens in the series.

EC has very good rugby schools and consistently pushes out world class (many world champions from the EC) sports players (that get bought up by the other provinces). The thing that hurts EC rugby the most is not the lack of talent. I recon we lose a lot of our talent to the other provinces when the kids go to university. We have no decent university here with decent sports facilities. Thats our biggest problem.

Other than that we have the 2nd oldest rugby club in the country and some of the best rugby schools in the country.

What's more worrying is that kids are now moving to other provinces while at school. In an SA Sports Illustrated article they showed that about half of Grey College players only join the school in grades 10 or 11. Some schools in Joburg were accused of being funded by the GLRU to entice school boys to join them.

[porchrat]

Hooray, the Kings are in. Now I can finally care about what happens in the series.
LOL at least when the Kings get their asses handed to them horrifically I know who to come laugh at :D

[SukkaFoo]

LOL at least when the Kings get their asses handed to them horrifically I know who to come laugh at :D

Hey, I'd rather get to watch the kings lose than not get to watch at all :D

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[porchrat]

Hey, I'd rather get to watch the kings lose than not get to watch at all :D
Frankly if it means one of the top 5 rugby franchises gets booted all so that we can watch these idiots humiliate SA on international television then it is too much to sacrifice.

Say what you want about the Cheetahs or the Lions but either of those teams would turn the Kings into jello in under a half. Do we really want to throw a decent franchise out and replace it with the Kings? For what conceivable reason?

[SukkaFoo]

Frankly if it means one of the top 5 rugby franchises gets booted all so that we can watch these idiots humiliate SA on international television then it is too much to sacrifice.

Say what you want about the Cheetahs or the Lions but either of those teams would turn the Kings into jello in under a half. Do we really want to throw a decent franchise out and replace it with the Kings? For what conceivable reason?

I think decent franchise is being overly generous to the lions and cheetahs... They have embarrassed SA rugby for almost a decade, so I don't really see the difference.

personally, I can't see SARU getting this right, there's too much money tired into the other franchises, but I would love to be able to go and watch live rugby again.

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[porchrat]

I think decent franchise is being overly generous to the lions and cheetahs... They have embarrassed SA rugby for almost a decade, so I don't really see the difference.
Lions won CC last year. Yes truly an embarrassment. Lets replace them with a franchise that doesn't even compete in the proper Currie Cup. Yea... makes perfect sense :rolleyes:

The Cheetahs have won the Currie Cup 3 times in the last decade, a figure topped only by the Blue Bulls. Yeah... total embarassment the Kings are way better. :rolleyes:

The way the Lions are improving I can't understand why you would want to replace them now. If you had talked about replacing them a few years ago I would have agreed but now... fsck no, and especially not for some garbage franchise like the Kings.



personally, I can't see SARU getting this right, there's too much money tired into the other franchises, but I would love to be able to go and watch live rugby again.
Meh I don't bother to watch live rugby at the stadiums. What I want to see is good rugby even if a South African team isn't playing and frankly I'm not going to get that watching the Kings get the stuffing beaten out of them every weekend.

The thing is I think the other franchises deserve far more than the Kings to be in the Super 15. These Kings have been created practically overnight and haven't been forced to work their way through the actual Currie Cup or anything. It isn't fair on the established franchises to just kick them out. The loss of revenue to the unfortunate franchise that gets the boot is going to be pretty substantial.

[ghoti]

What's more worrying is that kids are now moving to other provinces while at school. In an SA Sports Illustrated article they showed that about half of Grey College players only join the school in grades 10 or 11. Some schools in Joburg were accused of being funded by the GLRU to entice school boys to join them.
The school I went to are well known to "purchase" (scholarships and such) good players. There is a lot of purchasing power here at school level rugby, just no way to keep the talent once they leave school.


LOL at least when the Kings get their asses handed to them horrifically I know who to come laugh at :D

We are expected to lose, so when we actually do win the occasional game... the victory will be as sweet as Zimbabwe beating Australia in the cricket :D

[porchrat]

We are expected to lose, so when we actually do win the occasional game... the victory will be as sweet as Zimbabwe beating Australia in the cricket :D
ROFL "win the occasional game"!!!!! :D:D:D

Oh that is a good one!! :D

More like "score the occasional point". Not log points mind you I mean points on the field. Unless they start handing out points for participation that is.

[SukkaFoo]

Lions won CC last year. Yes truly an embarrassment. Lets replace them with a franchise that doesn't even compete in the proper Currie Cup. Yea... makes perfect sense :rolleyes:

The Cheetahs have won the Currie Cup 3 times in the last decade, a figure topped only by the Blue Bulls. Yeah... total embarassment the Kings are way better. :rolleyes:

The way the Lions are improving I can't understand why you would want to replace them now. If you had talked about replacing them a few years ago I would have agreed but now... fsck no, and especially not for some garbage franchise like the Kings.



The Lions were due to be replaced 6 years ago by the Spears, and that turned out to be PR nightmare for SARU. Granted, maybe the Spears didn't deserve their place in the Super 14 then either, but they were due to first have a season of Currie Cup. I concede that both the Cheetahs and Lions have had some seriously good results in Currie Cup, but they have been TERRIBLE in Super rugby, and their form simply hasn't translated into the bigger stage. The only reason the Lions have made progress is that money has now been thrown at them, and who is to say that the Kings wont perform well if cash is thrown their way?

Do the Kings deserve it based on their history no. Is it good for SA rugby, quite possibly, the Eastern Cape has produced some really good talent over the years, and given the chance and some funding, they might well represent well. I thought the Rebels were going to be completely terrible, but they managed to squeeze out a few victories last year, tho granted they finished last...

[porchrat]

The Lions were due to be replaced 6 years ago by the Spears, and that turned out to be PR nightmare for SARU. Granted, maybe the Spears didn't deserve their place in the Super 14 then either, but they were due to first have a season of Currie Cup. I concede that both the Cheetahs and Lions have had some seriously good results in Currie Cup, but they have been TERRIBLE in Super rugby, and their form simply hasn't translated into the bigger stage. The only reason the Lions have made progress is that money has now been thrown at them, and who is to say that the Kings wont perform well if cash is thrown their way?
You can't just lay the success of the Lions on more money. Much has happened in between including getting a new coach.

Sure their successes in Super rugby haven't been as numerous. My point is that compared to the other teams we have in SA the Lions and the Cheetahs are actually rather high up. the Cheetahs especially have a better record over the last decade locally than both the Stormers and the Sharks. Now you want to actually argue for the replacement of them citing their performance... then suggest that we replace them with the KINGS?!? :wtf:

If you are going to talk about performance then they STILL kick the crap out of the Kings. There is no argument here.



Do the Kings deserve it based on their history no. Is it good for SA rugby, quite possibly, the Eastern Cape has produced some really good talent over the years, and given the chance and some funding, they might well represent well. I thought the Rebels were going to be completely terrible, but they managed to squeeze out a few victories last year, tho granted they finished last...
Why can't they start out in Currie cup first? Why are they being bumped straight up to Super Rugby? It makes no sense. Absolutely none. All the teams in Super Rugby right now would tear that Kings side apart easily. Why is the schittier team getting preference.

I'm not saying the Kings couldn't be a good side if given some time to grow. I'm saying right now they are an absolute joke of a side. Putting them forward into Super Rugby is foolish.

Let me state that I don't have a problem with one of the franchises in Super rugby getting replaced. I have a problem with one of the franchises getting replaced with a vastly inferior team. That isn't fair. Get these Kings up to speed and then come squeal about giving them a shot.

[SukkaFoo]

You can't just lay the success of the Lions on more money. Much has happened in between including getting a new coach.

I honestly don't think it is anything less than money that got them there, don't get me wrong John Mitchell is a great coach, but I doubt he is there for the long and rich history associated with the lions or that he is doing it for free...


Let me state that I don't have a problem with one of the franchises in Super rugby getting replaced. I have a problem with one of the franchises getting replaced with a vastly inferior team. That isn't fair. Get these Kings up to speed and then come squeal about giving them a shot.

I actually tend to agree with you here; the EP Kings won the first division 2 years ago and failed in the playoffs, then came second last year and there were no playoffs. Losing the second game of the playoffs in 2010 was the worst possible thing that could have happened to them, we would be having an entirely different discussion if the Kings had any modicum of success in the CC over the last 2 years. That being said, don't entirely write off the possibility that the Kings might not do that badly. Alan Solomons is a decent coach, and if another franchise drops down those players will be "distributed" between the other unions with a few other movements along the way, so its no inconceivable that the Kings could end up with a semi-decent squad.

Personally I don't think that SA has sufficient depth to support 6 sides in the tournament as it stands, and I would support an automatic promotion relegation system from the 6 franchises in the country. At least the worst case scenario for any team is one season out of Super 15, and theres a much bigger incentive not to walk away with the wooden spoon. That being said I do agree that the Kings should have at least a season CC before attempting to walk before crawling. Why they voted for reducing the CC to 6 sides is an absolute mystery to me.

[ghoti]

ROFL "win the occasional game"!!!!! :D:D:D

Oh that is a good one!! :D

More like "score the occasional point". Not log points mind you I mean points on the field. Unless they start handing out points for participation that is.

You discount us too quickly. As Wales did the last time it played Border :D

I mention Border because there are no real rugby schools in PE :D *Runs from bwana*. There is Grey PE... but theyre like the naf version of Grey Bloem :D

Im glad the guys are playing. If we could just get some decent university sports programs happening in the EC.. and if we can retain our talent. Then we dont need to lose our best players to the other provinces.

[MickeyD]

You discount us too quickly. As Wales did the last time it played Border :D

I mention Border because there are no real rugby schools in PE :D *Runs from bwana*. There is Grey PE... but theyre like the naf version of Grey Bloem :D

Im glad the guys are playing. If we could just get some decent university sports programs happening in the EC.. and if we can retain our talent. Then we dont need to lose our best players to the other provinces.
uhmmmm.... Brandwag, Daniel Pienaar, Grey High, Framesby, Despatch... to name a few. Dale, Kingswood, St Andrews, Graeme, Queens, Gill, Marlow, Union, etc. from surrounding towns.

[bwana]

They produce great characters in bwana and MickeyD though :p
Hey - I'm not from here! :p

But I'm planning on sticking around . . . now that we have Super Rugby. :whistle:

[ghoti]

uhmmmm.... Brandwag, Daniel Pienaar, Grey High, Framesby, Despatch... to name a few. Dale, Kingswood, St Andrews, Graeme, Queens, Gill, Marlow, Union, etc. from surrounding towns.

I said schools, not penitentiaries.

Jokes aside. Dale and Queens are Border schools and part of my schools sphere more than PE`s. :D I dont feel any of the other schools you mentioned are good rugby schools. Grey is a good hockey school and St Andrews... while a border school... its more a rowers school.

[ghoti]

uhmmmm.... Brandwag, Daniel Pienaar, Grey High, Framesby, Despatch... to name a few. Dale, Kingswood, St Andrews, Graeme, Queens, Gill, Marlow, Union, etc. from surrounding towns.

2011 Rugby season results. You will see a couple of the teams you mention in there :)

Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Grey PE 1st XV (29-21)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Dale College 1st XV (31-19)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV drew Queens College 1st XV (22-22)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Hudson Park 1st XV (22-5)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Wynberg 1st XV (11-8)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Paarl Gym 1st XV (24-19)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV lost Boland Landbou 1st XV (18-19)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Grens 1st XV (42-9)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Port Rex 1st XV (54-0)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Cambridge 1st XV (66-3)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Graeme College 1st XV (36-11)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Dale College 1st XV (27-9)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV drew Grey Bloem 1st XV (16-16)
Selborne 1st XV beat Helpmekaar (3-0)
Selborne 1st XV beat Marais Viljoen (40-10)
Selborne 1st XV beat Monument (22-20)
Selborne 1st Rugby XV beat Queens College 1st XV (19-13)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Bishops 1st Rugby XV (24-23)
Selborne College 1st Rugby XV beat Hilton College 1st XV (31-17)
Selborne 1st Rugby XV beat Chief Boklein High 1st XV (66-0)
http://www.selborne.co.za/index.php/rugby-mainmenu-161.html

[MickeyD]

.... and now the question as raised earlier...

Where is all the local high school talent now?

[bwana]

I shot quite a few of those Selborne matches. In fact iirc I missed the SA vs NZ match because of one of them. . . :mad:

[ghoti]

.... and now the question as raised earlier...

Where is all the local high school talent now?

It dies out or goes to another province (Mark Andrews and such). I really believe the lack of a real university rugby is the problem of this province. Rhodes has rugby, but there is not enough professional training for the talent. Other universities in other provinces can offer much more to the guys leaving school rugby.


I shot quite a few of those Selborne matches. In fact iirc I missed the SA vs NZ match because of one of them. . . :mad:

Hehe. Unlucky. I think I remember your post about that :D

[cr@zydude]

In related news:


Cape Town - The Taranaki Rugby Football Union from New Zealand has expressed an interest to own a Super Rugby franchise.

According to Taranaki's website, the union will be submitting an expression of interest to the New Zealand Rugby Union with regard to ownership of a Super Rugby franchise.

"Careful consideration has been given to entering this process, and Taranaki Rugby only does so with the best interests of New Zealand rugby at heart. However, Taranaki Rugby has ambitions to host a Super Rugby franchise, and has the business model, as well as the financial and public support to do so," the Taranaki union said in a statement.

Taranaki's first preference for entry into Super Rugby is to expand the competition and it believes with the right competition structures in place, this is a realistic opportunity.

"Taranaki Rugby also understands the broad rationale under-pinning the current geographical arrangements are in the interests of New Zealand rugby. That said, if any existing franchise host was unable to promote a model that was acceptable to the NZRU, then Taranaki is ready and able to be considered."

Taranaki believes the current New Zealand model of 19 professional and semi-professional teams is unsustainable.

The union feels there should be an expansion in the number of Super Rugby teams, balanced by a significant reduction in the salary cap for payments to players in the current ITM Cup, which is New zeland's version of the Currie Cup.

"This would allow an ambitious union like Taranaki to become a franchise host, while reducing the overall costs to New Zealand rugby, and hopefully eliminating the problems currently being experienced by the Otago Rugby Union."

This comes after the Otago Rugby Union was placed in liquidation last Friday.

Taranaki is currently part of the Hurricanes franchise

Sport24 (http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/Super15/Taranaki-keen-for-Super-Rugby-20120229)

[MickeyD]

It dies out or goes to another province (Mark Andrews and such). I really believe the lack of a real university rugby is the problem of this province. Rhodes has rugby, but there is not enough professional training for the talent. Other universities in other provinces can offer much more to the guys leaving school rugby.

Here are some of the EP/Border/SWD school boy players now contracted elsewhere...

Dewald Pogieter - Bulls
Jacques Potgieter - Bulls
Akona Ndungane - Bulls
Bjorn Basson - Bulls
JJ Engelbrecht - Bulls
Zane Kirchner - Bulls
CJ Stander - Bulls
Meyer Bosman - Sharks
Odwa Ndungane - Sharks
Keegan Daniel - Sharks
Ryan Kankowski - Sharks
Lubabalo Mtembu - Sharks
Steven Sykes - Sharks
Lwazi Mvovo - Sharks
Gouws Prinsloo - Sharks
Sibusiso Sithole - Sharks
Tim Whitehead - Sharks
Lionel Mapoe - Lions
Bandise Maku - Lions
JC Janse van Rensburg - Lions
Michael Killian - Lions
Johan Goosen - Cheetahs (another buy by Grey College)
Deon Stegmann - Cheetahs (born in Cradock, ended up at Grey College)
Cameron Jacobs - Cheetahs
Davon Raubenheimer - Cheetahs
Siya Kolisi - Stormers
Scarra Ntubeni - Stormers
Dewald Senekal - Agen, France
Conrad Barnard - Agen, France

[porchrat]

Meyer Bosman plays for the Sharks. Before that he played for the Cheetahs. He never played for the Bulls.

[MickeyD]

Meyer Bosman plays for the Sharks. Before that he played for the Cheetahs. He never played for the Bulls.
Copy 'n paste error, apologies... of all people I should know that!! :p

[sand_man]

Yeah, Selborne had a fantastic team 2011.

And quite a few of Dales finest find there way to my old school KES.

[Devill]

Here are some of the EP/Border/SWD school boy players now contracted elsewhere...

Dewald Pogieter - Bulls
Jacques Potgieter - Bulls
Akona Ndungane - Bulls
Bjorn Basson - Bulls
JJ Engelbrecht - Bulls
Zane Kirchner - Bulls
CJ Stander - Bulls
Meyer Bosman - Sharks
Odwa Ndungane - Sharks
Keegan Daniel - Sharks
Ryan Kankowski - Sharks
Lubabalo Mtembu - Sharks
Steven Sykes - Sharks
Lwazi Mvovo - Sharks
Gouws Prinsloo - Sharks
Sibusiso Sithole - Sharks
Tim Whitehead - Sharks
Lionel Mapoe - Lions
Bandise Maku - Lions
JC Janse van Rensburg - Lions
Michael Killian - Lions
Johan Goosen - Cheetahs (another buy by Grey College)
Deon Stegmann - Cheetahs (born in Cradock, ended up at Grey College)
Cameron Jacobs - Cheetahs
Davon Raubenheimer - Cheetahs
Siya Kolisi - Stormers
Scarra Ntubeni - Stormers
Dewald Senekal - Agen, France
Conrad Barnard - Agen, France

It is not realistic to think that more than half of them will have gone through the ranks and played for the EP, not going to another province or going overseas, or or or....

I know that they have a lot of talent but that is why they should start fixing this thing from the bottom, you do not build the roof first on a new house...

[porchrat]

It is not realistic to think that more than half of them will have gone through the ranks and played for the EP, not going to another province or going overseas, or or or....

I know that they have a lot of talent but that is why they should start fixing this thing from the bottom, you do not build the roof first on a new house...
Yup I agree.

The Kings are not even close to ready for Super Rugby. Thrusting them into a position they have nowhere near earned is just making a mockery of Super Rugby. Let them work up through Currie Cup and earn the privilege of playing Super Rugby.

[cr@zydude]

Yup I agree.

The Kings are not even close to ready for Super Rugby. Thrusting them into a position they have nowhere near earned is just making a mockery of Super Rugby. Let them work up through Currie Cup and earn the privilege of playing Super Rugby.

What did the ACT Brumbies, Western Force or Melbourne Rebels do to earn their places?

[Devill]

What did the ACT Brumbies, Western Force or Melbourne Rebels do to earn their places?

Australian Rugby union is not structured the same as South African Rugby union.

You can not compare them. To the Aussies the Super 14 is the next biggest comp after their club rugby.

They also contract their players differently. You can not compare Aus and SA qualifying processes.

[porchrat]

What did the ACT Brumbies, Western Force or Melbourne Rebels do to earn their places?
Yup Devill summed it up nicely.

What is wrong... you don't like the idea of making the Kings prove themselves in the lower ranks before moving up to Super Rugby? You don't think that is fair? If so why not?

[FlapjackJoe]

A few people have suggested the Kings prove themselves in the Currie Cup before getting entry into Super Rugby.

To be fair, their results have not been bad recently. In the 2011 Vodacom Cup, the Eastern Province Kings beat Griquas, the Pumas and the Leopards. The Pumas and Leopards would have had lost no players to Super Rugby being played at the same time, the Griquas would've lost about three. Based on that, it's not ludicrous to suggest that they could've finished 6th in the Currie Cup if they actually played in it.

In fact, they lost only two games in the Vodacom Cup competition - by a single point to the Lions and by a single point to the Bulls (admittedly, those teams would've lost a fair few players to Super Rugby). In addition, they beat Georgia, Romania and Portugal in the IRB Nations Cup. They also beat all the First Division teams - in fact, hammered most of them, but lost twice to Boland in Wellington (after beating them in Port Elizabeth).

Luck does play a big part in things. In 2010, after winning the First Division title, they drew with the Pumas in Witbank, but lost in Port Elizabeth. In 2011, as the season was drawing to a close, Saru announced the Currie Cup was being reduced to 6 teams and there would be no promotion. Suddenly the Kings had nothing to play for. That, coupled with the extra games in the IRB Nations Cup, were contributing factors in their losses to Boland. I'm not looking for excuses, I'm just trying to say that the perception some people are trying to create about how poor the EP Kings are, are not strictly accurate.

As for the infamous 88-0 loss to the Lions people keep referring to - no EP Kings players were involved, since they were all in the Southern Kings teams to face the Stormers 3 days earlier and the Sharks 3 days later. There were no SWD Eagles players involved, since they played a Vodacom Cup warm-up game against Western Province (as a curtain raiser to the Southern Kings v Lions game). So it was largely a Border Bulldogs team.

I can't see the Kings ever breaking into the top 5 teams. The 5 current Super Rugby franchises will always be able to attract the better players - they can offer players more money, the opportunity to play Super Rugby, a better chance to make the national team, etc. Without Super Rugby, the Kings simply can't compete. Two examples - during last season's Currie Cup, the Bulls felt they had to strengthen their teams and signed Jacques Potgieter, one of the Kings' best players. With him, the Kings could've won the First Division. Or not, but without giving the Kings the opportunity to retain their players, we'll never know. At the start of the season, the Kings lost Ross Kennedy to the Crusaders.

Even if the Kings played in the Currie Cup last season and beat Griquas, the Pumas and the Leopards (like they did in the Vodacom Cup) to finish 6th, the same thing would've happened. So I can't see the Kings - or any other team - ever proving themselves in the Currie Cup to earn a spot in Super Rugby.

A few people asked what the Kings did to deserve a spot in Super Rugby - basically, they got their act together off the field. They moved into the Nelson Mandela Bay Stadium, they set up an academy (which produced 8 players for the EP Kings squad for this coming season), they lined up sponsorship deals (like the R10m on from the municipality) and are in very advanced negotiations with an equity partner. On the field, they've hit a brick wall (not helped by a slice of bad luck in key games).

Surely, it's the duty of a governing body to promote its sport in all its geograhical areas? For ages, the Kings have been overlooked. 3 out of the 14 rugby unions in South Africa have no pathway to Super Rugby - that's more than 20% of the unions. Yes, they have to ensure that everything is in place off the pitch to support Super Rugby. For the first time ever, that is now there.

I think it was the right decision to get the Kings into Super Rugby. I think the way Saru went about things was done very poorly. Saru should've campaigned SANZAR during the latter half of 2011 to get Super Rugby expanded. If they failed to get that, the existing franchises should've known before the season kicked off what they had to do to retain a Super Rugby spot. When the Kings was promised a Super Rugby spot, they should've been given minimum requirements (that a team can realistically achieve given that they can't attract Super Rugby players). That way, everyone would've known what was going on and all this controversy cvould've been avoided.

So - right idea, woeful execution.

[Devill]

@ Flapjackjoe - Good post and some valid points that you make.
I proposed to give the Southern Kings 4-5 years in the CC (they can not be relegated in this time) and SARU should help them financially.

I don't think anyone doesn't want the Kings to play Super Rugby. I think people just feel that no one else should suffer because the Kings are being given a hand out.

[FlapjackJoe]

Devill - and how do you judge success during those 4-5 years? Finishing 6th? I mentioned their results in my previous post to illustrate they're not far off 6th at the moment.

Even if you give them Currie Cup rugby, they can't offer players Super Rugby. So they'll still lose their top players to the Big 5 teams. So 6th place will be their "natural" position in the scheme of things.

Or would you insist that they have to overachieve and consistently beat teams that can offer players more money and opportunity?

[MickeyD]

http://i.imgur.com/94PvO.gif

[bwana]

[]http://i.imgur.com/94PvO.gif[/IMG]Are you against the Kings finally being admitted to Super Rugby then?

[MickeyD]

Are you against the Kings finally being admitted to Super Rugby then?
No... I'm tired of repeating myself to the naysayers!

[FlapjackJoe]

For the record, Devill, I'm not having a go at you at all. In an ideal world, the Kings would be given some on-field target to achieve before getting Super Rugby. I just don't know what target they could be set that they could ever realistically achieve.

I do agree with you that giving the Kings a Super Rugby spot is a bit of a handout, but I honestly don't see any other way of breaking the vicious circle they're in. They won't be able to finish in the top 5 without getting better players, but they won't be able to get better players unless they can offer Super Rugby.

The administration of Eastern Cape rugby was an absolute mess a decade ago and they were rightfully overlooked for a Super Rugby franchise license until now. But they've gotten their act together off the field - one can argue they're better run than the Lions (who is still flirting with liquidation) and the Cheetahs (who couldn't seem to be able to attract a sponsor for love or money leading up to the start of last season).

I just honestly can't see how they can ever match those two teams on the pitch without Super Rugby. And since it's SARU's responsibility to improve rugby in all areas in their jurisdiction, I'm not sure they could really do anything else.

For the record, I'm not having a go at you at all. In an ideal world, the Kings would be given some on-field target to achieve before getting Super Rugby. I just don't know what target they could be set that they could ever realistically achieve.

I do agree with you that giving the Kings a Super Rugby spot is a bit of a handout, but I honestly don't see any other way of breaking the vicious circle they're in. They won't be able to finish in the top 5 without getting better players, but they won't be able to get better players unless they can offer Super Rugby.

The administration of Eastern Cape rugby was an absolute mess a decade ago and they were rightfully overlooked for a Super Rugby franchise license until now. But they've gotten their act together off the field - one can argue they're better run than the Lions (who is still flirting with liquidation) and the Cheetahs (who couldn't seem to be able to attract a sponsor for love or money leading up to the start of last season).

I just honestly can't see how they can ever match those two teams on the pitch without Super Rugby.

[McT]

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Petition-to-STOP-the-Kings-and-Saru-from-ruining-Super-rugby/113520615439487?ref=tck&sk=wall


Go on, you know you want to :)

No I don't. Besides I don't like facebook.

[Devill]

Devill - and how do you judge success during those 4-5 years? Finishing 6th? I mentioned their results in my previous post to illustrate they're not far off 6th at the moment.

Even if you give them Currie Cup rugby, they can't offer players Super Rugby. So they'll still lose their top players to the Big 5 teams. So 6th place will be their "natural" position in the scheme of things.

Or would you insist that they have to overachieve and consistently beat teams that can offer players more money and opportunity?

I have said before that I would expect them to finish ahead of ONE of the big five twice in the 4-5 year span.

Griekwas have done it, why would the kings not be able to?


http://i.imgur.com/94PvO.gif


No... I'm tired of repeating myself to the naysayers!

And I am tired of trying to explain to people that if you pour money in to the top without the structures being in place (ie. Building the roof of a house first) it will not last long.

I still hold to the fact that this is nothing more than AA in sport if a stronger team is going to get axed for a weaker team to enter because of political reasons.

Great for the Kings if they get in, really.

[sand_man]

And I am tired of trying to explain to people that if you pour money in to the top without the structures being in place (ie. Building the roof of a house first) it will not last long.



Agreed, has EP ever contested a Currie Cup final let alone won it?

We can make excuses for EP not being able to retain their top players in the professional era but they weren't particularly successful in the amateur era either...

They lack the pedigree, period...

[SukkaFoo]

And....the lions prove to us once again why they don't deserve their place in super rugby. Empty stadium and another loss...

[sand_man]

And....the lions prove to us once again why they don't deserve their place in super rugby. Empty stadium and another loss...

Yip, hard to believe this team beat the Kings 88-0.

Oh what you mean another loss? They won last weekend...

[phaktza]

And....the lions prove to us once again why they don't deserve their place in super rugby. Empty stadium and another loss...

The Sharks haven't won any S15 matches, should we boot them out?

[McT]

The Sharks haven't won any S15 matches, should we boot them out?

Sacrilege :eek:

[MickeyD]

Yip, hard to believe this team beat the Kings 88-0.

Oh what you mean another loss? They won last weekend...
Read the posts before you to relieve you of your ignorance....

[SukkaFoo]

Read the posts before you to relieve you of your ignorance....

Lol, I guess some guys read/see what they want to...

Sent from my GT-N7000 using Tapatalk

[sand_man]

http://www.rugby365.com/tournaments/super14/news/2875705.htm

[thestaggy]

I'm a Lion fan and I'll tell you now, they don't belong in Super Rugby. They're a joke.

5 wins in 2007
2 wins in 2008
4 wins in 2009
0 wins in 2010
3 wins in 2011
1 win thus far in 2012

Of all the franchises excluding the ill thought Aussie expansion 'chises - Australia does not have the player pool to field 5 competitive teams - they're the only one that has never improved. A flash here and a flash there but essentially the same rugby; that of being completely outclassed in all facets of the game and guilty of committing the same in-game errors time and time again. I've heard it all; ''young team'', ''still learning'', ''get back to the drawing board'', every year the same excuses. Heck, the Cheetahs just need to defend and they'll be a major player. The Lions rarely compete against any opponent and are thoroughly outclassed time and time again.

The difference between the Kings and Lions in Super Rugby? The Lions will be in the game for 20 - 30 minutes minutes - either starting well or finishinge well - while still losing quite spectacularly while the Kings will be blown away for 80 minutes.

As a Lion fan, I've reached the point where I could not care less whether they stay or go, to be frank. They can only compete in the Currie Cup, where I'm sorry to admit, they get to play weakened Shark, Bull & Province teams.

[Ho3n3r]

Promotion relegation games. Come on, it's not rocket science. 3 games between the Lions and Kings.

Unfortunately, the tits at SARU have already made the promise, so this won't happen.